|
On January 17 2012 01:35 Z-BosoN wrote:
too much SCVs? That would make sense if he had 6+ orbitals and toss started suiciding probes as well. The last fight was 132 vs 126 army supply, so it aint that.
Terran had 74 SCVS... Toss had 10 probes less... He had 19 supply of units (2 7/8 medvacs) siting idly near terran base. And 1 marauder sitting at rally point. He was maxed. = 200-95 = 105 supply.
did you read the rest of my post, mr. math man? Or even though i mentioned the two medivacs, you want me to make it crystal clear that I am treating scvs and those medivacs as separate problems and I just pressed control R to compare army sizes?
Sorry, but usualy, when we talk about 2 armies fighting, we only count those units, that are used in that fight, not ones dancing around. However, because of replay tools, where we have "Army size", I misunderstood you. My bad.
Edit: reaction
|
On January 17 2012 00:23 Back wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 00:02 SirDawid wrote:There's one thing I don't understand, and I lack the possibility to watch the replay at the moment. How come you can't kill the archons if you landed "perfect EMP's"? Shouldn't they have zero shields and 10 hp left? Please enlighten me, there must be something I'm missing!  Just making sure you are aware that an EMP doesn't remove all of a target's shields, just 100. An Archon has 350 shields so you'd need 4 EMPs on a single Archon to achieve that scenario.
Very clever. But if you land "12 PERFECT EMPS" then its more likely than not that most archons have been hit around 3 times.
|
Perhaps your asking yourself the wrong questions and looking for the wrong answers. Instead of asking how to deal with 3-3-3 late game toss, try asking how do I slow down the upgrades for him. Or maybe how do I add in more production/bases. Maybe the solution is not in the late game. Perhaps you need to do something in the mid game.
|
On January 16 2012 23:45 leecx wrote:
I AM A DIAMOND PLAYER THIS ADVICE MAY OR MAY NOT BE SOUND
IMO, late game battles between Bio armies and deathballs favour the protoss, they tend to perform better in big groups. Aside from the points you mentioned, (afk drops etc.) I feel that sort of microing during battles would do a lot in reducing overall damage to your army. Instead of balling up, you could spread your units into a concave (watch drewbie do this sometimes on his stream) before or during the fight. If you lack the APM like me or get caught pants down with NO ALTERNATIVE but to fight, (chargelots already coming at you, colossi already shot a few times) I think you should just split the ball into two and kite back slowly while moving small groups (1-5 units) forward to eat the damage from both colossi and archons. This way, less overall damage is done unless he has epic APM and micros all his shots in the middle of the ball. These same groups of rauders/rines can be used to instagib the archons with 10 hp.
Prevention is also the best cure, while doing drops, scan places to find colossi/high templar that are out of position. Colossi have weird pathing patterns and templar are slow, these two units tend to get caught out of position when the main army goes to respond to your drops. Maybe have a group of ~6 marauders on standby to just snipe these gas heavy units? As long as he stays on 3 bases or less he won't have enough gas to replace these very quickly and so you will have less problems during the main fight itself. Don't be afraid to trade marauders for colossi/templar as they take very long and a lot of resources to replace while marauders are easily remade using your ~8 barracks (3 base).
Hope this helped, but again I AM A DIAMOND (top8) PLAYER, ADVICE MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT.
these is the best advice, for using bio vs toss in the late game.
|
On January 17 2012 01:43 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 01:35 Z-BosoN wrote:
too much SCVs? That would make sense if he had 6+ orbitals and toss started suiciding probes as well. The last fight was 132 vs 126 army supply, so it aint that. Terran had 74 SCVS... Toss had 10 probes less... He had 19 supply of units (2 7/8 medvacs) siting idly near terran base. And 1 marauder sitting at rally point. He was maxed. = 200-95 = 105 supply. So please use math...
did you read the rest of my post, mr. math man? Or even though i mentioned the two medivacs, you want me to make it crystal clear that I am treating scvs and those medivacs as separate problems and I just pressed control R to compare army sizes?
|
I do this strategy, and I've only lost once or twice.
1) there are a few timing pushes where protoss is vulnerable.
2) Mass kiting marauders are a pain to deal with.
3) Drops can be very good.
Lastly, getting a few cloaked banshees can be devastating.
|
Watched replay. You're not NEARLY as ahead as you say you are. Your natural CC is sitting in your main at the 10 minute mark, dropping down dem mules and burning up your main. You lost a ton of shit when he broke the bunkers at his nat ( which you lost all of the units and didn't salvage the bunkers ) You're never more than slightly economically ahead. You never have more scv than probe, and mules give you SMALL lead. You are behind in scvs until like the 14 minute mark.
If you had macroed better and sent reinforcements at the 18 minute mark, you would have outright won. If you had EMP during that fight, you also would have outright won.
In the battle where you raged (round 20 minutes) you lost all of your medivacs and ghosts and you had no chance to win the fight because yet again you didn't reinforce.
Last fight you have like 19 marauders, 30 marines, and 11 ghosts (this is tanking into account your 2 afk medivacs) and he has 37 zealots, 7 stalkers, 4 immortals, and 6 archons. He just has way more stuff than you do. Your ghost micro was not very good. You weren't focus firing his no-shield archons from the back. You only have 8 rax and 1 port and he has 8 gates and 2 robos and this is AFTER you kill 5 gateways. And sorry but as a "high masters player" you need to see this kind of thing in your analysis before freaking out about balance on the strategy thread.
Hope this helps.
|
On January 17 2012 01:50 TBone- wrote:
Perhaps your asking yourself the wrong questions and looking for the wrong answers. Instead of asking how to deal with 3-3-3 late game toss, try asking how do I slow down the upgrades for him. Or maybe how do I add in more production/bases. Maybe the solution is not in the late game. Perhaps you need to do something in the mid game.
This guy is also correct. You slowed down some things for him but his overall upgrade jaunt kept rolling, and as the game went on you just traded armies and he was being equally if not more efficient.
|
After watching the replay and reading previous comments, it's pretty easy to state the thread-topic is kinda misleading since there are tons of other factors taking their toll on the engagement. I do agree that zealot-archon is hard though, can't stand it myself...
I don't have much experience of it though, since my TvP's mostly end at "3-base-ghost"-ish scenarios. If I don't go 2 marauder, 2 marine, 4 scv's and end the game early that is 
In any case, I wish you good luck in your future TvP!
|
Why did you trash talk so much in the game?
|
Okay let me get you some facts (masters player).
1. You killed his nexus. what you shoulda done after that was maybe leave 1 marine in each bunker and retreat, bunker up the front of your natural straight away. that guy was left with 5 gates and yourr bunkers were just coming up when he wobbled all the way to your base, and i honestly i thought he was gonna bust you so easily. Hell, if that guy wasnt so bad he woulda bust you. any other masters toss you woulda gotten busted.
2. Your followup to getting such a lead like that shoulda been okay im gonna do a timing attack with medivacs because if this guy does try and restart his nexus, theres no fucking way hes going to have enough to handle a double drop in his main and an attack at this natural and be cost effecient.
And that was your response, but lets take a look at how that panned out.
You do the stupidest thing you couldve done, you ran in with the 5 marauders at his natural when you knew he had units at the bottom. He left units at the top but you had enough units with the double drop that if you engaged all the units at top of his ramp with all of your units, you wouldve killed all of them, and those werel ike 5 sentrys 3 stalkers couple zealots. very very good trade for you. Instead, you lose all of them because 6 units were shooting at a gateway. That gave him time to get a warp in and then your like OMG WTF TOSS IMBA when in reality you did stupid shit. The idea of that little poke with medivacs and attack at the front is to be cost effecient. Before that warp in he did, theres a timing and thats why its important that you get there asap when medivacs come out. his warpin wouldve been late. 8zealots 5 sentrys like 2 stalkers is alot less scary when 5 of those zealots arent being warped in for 10 seconds. Take a look at this replay and just watch that part and look at how stupid you look from his side. hes like okay i ffed the ram he should know i left some units on the bottom, but your like no im gonna be really stupid and run in anyway. You let him back the game. That was the most in cost effecient drop ive ever see when it coulda just flat out won you the game. stupid moves.
3.This guys composition which you scouted you saw okay hes going for twilight and you saw lots of zealots and sentrys when you did do the medivac poke. What you should know by that, is that drops are really abusive to this. you can drop your units for example in the back of the mineral line, and a double drop worthof units tehre will almost always pay for itself.
4. Okay, after this poke (14mins) you ahve another army macrod, this guy doesnt have any AoE, and you have a big enough bioball imo to be able to spread him so thin taht if you do it right hes going to lose. Now lets look at where you army is. Your in your natural durping like an idiot. After your medivacs first popped ever sicne that ever happened, youshoulda been rallying to the center because there is absolutely no reason not too and all reason to. This guys being a fucking idiot. Hes taking a third while on zealot sentry, and hes not spreading himslef out well. This is what you shoulda done. Multiprong. do a double drop the top of the map on this map and unload at his fourth. Make it a double drop cause double drops only cost effecient drops to warp ins past like 10-12 mins.do the drop, stim in and snipe his third. This should trigger reaction from the tosss to take his main army to the third. While this is happening, set a second double drop at his main, but time it so that he has to run from his third to his main. Keep the drop attacking kill his pylons and shit tomake him stress out alittle bit, and if he just forfeits it then the drop in the main you can always just run out. You always have that option because he has no AA. You wouldve been in a beautiful position to just get ghosts out emp and just take the game. thats what your response shoulda been if you didnt suck at TvP. Instead, hes getting a third and hes back into this game when you couldve mobility raped this guy. You lost the game right there in my opinion also. you didnt even take the towers.
Believe me, theres no reason NOT to take map control against toss, you can always stim run away and you see it a mile away so if you have good reacton time you dont even have to stim.
4.Your armory is late against a double forging twlilight player. upgrades should be on your mind always. upgrades in tvp are on of the most unforgiving in any matchup (top 3 imo).
5. Now you missed this guys attack completely that was coming cause you didnt have map control. You shouldnt take your third there anyway. You want your third to be as far away from the toss as possible so that drop backstabs keep him in his place, so at least he feels all in if hedoes move out. its like zergling runbys. If you saw that coming, Your best case scenario to do since you took that third there wouldve been to flank from behind with half your units and attack in the front with the other half, and take advantage of that choke. When in doubt of winning engagemnts as toss, do flanks and make monster concaves cause your cost effeciency goes wayyy up.
Despite all this, this guy was so stupid that he let you keep your third. He could killed it but hes stupid honestly.
6.it is 17 mins this guy had 0/0 to your 1/1 even though he had like a triple forge up way way long ago. (so sad some masters players are so bad i swear to god) and no AoE. Honestly, this guys just set himself up to lose the game. Your bio ball you shoulda just split and picked him apart. You cant just play a macro game against a toss player because then it is imba. Thats why poeple lose cause they dont take advantage of the fact that if you split your army then you can be extremely cost effecient as terran.
Like i said earlier, multiprong wouldve ended this idiots life. drop at the third snipe snipe drop at the the main. Now instead lets look at what you did. You did a ltitle poke to see what he had, i actully really liked that decision. Now, you scanned and saw his army was bigger then yours and you did such a stupid idea. You engaged him. Now with perfect control you mightve been able to pull like a freakin thorzain and kill everything with better upgrades but nope. That was such a stupid decision i can not say enough. His only dps is zealots and stalkers against a goddam bioball. with good ffs he was able to chip your army out, good for him. What you shoulda reacted on the scan was to fucking instantly load up all your untis into those 6 medivacs and split them 3 to he top 3 to the bottom. Let me say this: its alot harder to stop a drop by splitting your army correctly then it is to drop. Drops are fucking intensive too, amnd what does that say.
6.19 minutes into the game and you have 6 barracks and ghost academy 1 starport. let me tell you what my main wouldve looked like. 2 starports in case of the very good 2 robo colossus switch 12 barracks and 4 bases. You wanna stay 1 base ahead of the toss. i like to make my third a planetary on shakuras and a fast 4th to be an orbital because he has to run through the planetary and planetarys really imba. You did bad.
7.20-21 mins or w.e. you see his army again and your like okay im gonna go fight this kid head on again and lose. This guy smashed your army once the way you get back into the game is drops. Thats what your eaction shoulda been, you also didnt have cloak which is a big mistake because cloak lets you get free perfect emps instead of letting them die. You aslo ran your army into his army. Now theese are some big inidicators of not to fight zealot archon balls. Your not maxed out and his zealot ball alone looks bigger then your bioball when maraudrs are 1.5x more wide and marines about even in size. true you killed his zealots but toss have this little thing called warpins. so. :/.
8.24.00 MY GODBLOODY MARY! LOOK WHAT YOU DO! IT TAKES YOU 24 MINS TO DECIDE TO SPLIT YOUR ARMY AGAINST ZEALOT ARCHON. look at the damage this has done. Okay he did no warpins or anything and you couldve done m,ore damage to his main. imo you shouldve ran away when you saw his whole army go to his third because then you coulda been more of a pain.
9. Okay deciding fight last fight. its true that you have perfect emps but you dont do the right kind of attack. Against zealot archon mixes you actully wanna do concave splitting. That means you make the biggest concave you can in your life and just try to dodge storms / archon damage, pretty much running back the units getting hit so that the medivacs that should be in high count can heal them. Then when the zealot archon starts hitting those other units they werent hitting you run back. Thats how you smash a zealot archon mix. If you just do a ball like you did which is freakin retarded then you ARE going to get smashed. since you just did a ball despite perfect emps yea the AOE is going to cleave you
apart when you ball up like that. That just amkes it an even fight.
Read all of this. You can tell this is this guys bad matchup because he sucks at drops. notice he sent his whole army in to deal with a double drop at his fourth. This tells me he doesnt deserve to be in masters cause of his pvt needs so much work. Now, lets look at you. Your a trash masters player. You talk crap your fed up with the matchup cause you dont take the time to do the right reactions, nore do you have good engagements. You dont have good reactions in this matchup for sure. Your lucky this guy wasnt the smart type that went for a 2 colossi timing push or 2base colossi into 3base into that ultimate archon templar deathball. You woulda got rolled so hard. This guy was bad and you still lost. That should tell you so much. read all of this text wall i just made you these are literally all the reason why you shoulda lost. These also contain good info on what you coulda done to won. i hate your BM it makes me sick to my stomach. You remind me of nazis your so BM when you coulkd be asking them what you coulda done better instead of being a goddam nazi. For gods sake read this post and take all this to heart. Your tvp needs a complete makeover because its so bad.
|
I literally just gave you a goddam coaching lesson right here. look at all that goddam text. thats all the crap you did wrong. you lost that game in so many ways. -.-.
|
I am an 800 point masters terran and my tips for beating zealot archon is to just never attack. Keep up in upgrades as best you can and make a ton of bunkers, pfs, missile turrets, and sensor towers. Take yourside of the maps and then drop everywhere while either tech to an insanely ghost heavy composition or transition to battlecruisers. Zealot archon is terrible against static defense so if they engage you with it, they will lose.
|
Didn't watch the replay but after reading OP and Picklebreads response here (awesome advice btw) I think the biggest and most simple thing I can say against zealot archon is simply massing a shitton of ghosts and landing emps.
If they are very colossus light its not that bad to even have 20 or more ghosts.
In late game though P > T in my opinion. T needs to get something done in mid game or get a few drops off to keep up going into late game vs good P. If P has right unit comp maxed army vs maxed army I feel P is in better shape in big fight. T can avoid this though if you play it right.
|
Hello, seems like I am your brother. Been a high master/mid masters Terran since the day 1 masters league got introduced in sc2 and currently droped out of masters league first time ever since latest patch. After latest patch my TvP have gone from 50-50 win to like 20-80. I am currently testing everything in the Terran arsenal but have not found anything I feel comfortable with. When I watch your replay I can see some misstakes, but honestly, the Protoss is far worse. But this is the problem with TvP, if you make 1 misstake, the protoss can do 3. Pretty much the only goal for the toss is to reach a 200-200 upgraded deathball because almost nothing can stop it.
It doesnt matter how much you harras or how much dmg you do, if it is not a killing blow or realy close to it, the time will pass and sooner or later he will reach the deathball and turn the game into his favour almost no matter what ahead you are. This matchup is designed for 20 Korean Terrans in the world, the rest (800 thousand Terrans?) should stick with scv allins or some kind of cheese. Blizzard has clearly fuked up. You deserved a win if the game was balanced. GL in the future!
|
And btw the toss went TRIPLE forge after his 1 gate expand got wrecked. If you can't exploit that 'opening' in terms of bio timings then you should better not be whining about balance and level up your game.
Toss spends way too much on the third forge with shields which has limited lategame usage anyway due to ghosts and makes himself even more vulnerable to early and midgame bio timings (depending on what he will cut for that costs).
|
i hate your BM it makes me sick to my stomach. You remind me of nazis your so BM when you coulkd be asking them what you coulda done better instead of being a goddam nazi. For gods sake read this post and take all this to heart. Your tvp needs a complete makeover because its so bad
You should get a warning for saying that, he was obviously frustrated.
And btw, put some spaces in your massive wall of text.
Oh and this is way to right:
Hello, seems like I am your brother. Been a high master/mid masters Terran since the day 1 masters league got introduced in sc2 and currently droped out of masters league first time ever since latest patch. After latest patch my TvP have gone from 50-50 win to like 20-80. I am currently testing everything in the Terran arsenal but have not found anything I feel comfortable with. When I watch your replay I can see some misstakes, but honestly, the Protoss is far worse. But this is the problem with TvP, if you make 1 misstake, the protoss can do 3. Pretty much the only goal for the toss is to reach a 200-200 upgraded deathball because almost nothing can stop it.
It doesnt matter how much you harras or how much dmg you do, if it is not a killing blow or realy close to it, the time will pass and sooner or later he will reach the deathball and turn the game into his favour almost no matter what ahead you are. This matchup is designed for 20 Korean Terrans in the world, the rest (800 thousand Terrans?) should stick with scv allins or some kind of cheese. Blizzard has clearly fuked up. You deserved a win if the game was balanced. GL in the future!
|
On January 17 2012 02:36 Picklebread wrote:
I literally just gave you a goddam coaching lesson right here. look at all that goddam text. thats all the crap you did wrong. you lost that game in so many ways. -.-.
Very nice... I actually have a really hard time to read text that isnt atleast attempted to be formated. Could you edit it abit and create more than one paragraph? <3
Whoever said there were bad advice in this thread is a dumb. If you are more than 25 mins into a TvP and have not attempted made more orbitals and not oversaturate (which was done already, as 75 SCVs is suboptimal...) you're doing it wrong. He had all the info he needed and with that he should've tailored his expansion timings and composition better. Also engaging without a third of your army and leave the ghost behind to not fight the army after EMP just makes this game a joke to even comment about.
Meh!
|
On January 17 2012 03:04 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 02:36 Picklebread wrote:
I literally just gave you a goddam coaching lesson right here. look at all that goddam text. thats all the crap you did wrong. you lost that game in so many ways. -.-. Very nice... I actually have a really hard time to read text that isnt atleast attempted to be formated. Could you edit it abit and create more than one paragraph? <3 Whoever said there were bad advice in this thread is a dumb. If you are more than 25 mins into a TvP and have not attempted made more orbitals and not oversaturate (which was done already, as 75 SCVs is suboptimal...) you're doing it wrong. He had all the info he needed and with that he should've tailored his expansion timings and composition better. Also engaging without a third of your army and leave the ghost behind to not fight the army after EMP just makes this game a joke to even comment about. Meh!
Yea sorry. I was typing that up really fast so i forgot to space it out.
|
Well we all know that heavy ghost play is the counter to zealot-archon, but other factors such as army positioning, upgrades, and army size definitely come into play (especially in the late game). Because the toss had less probes than you, he had a larger army. And because the toss had a larger army, you're doubly screwed. With max upgrades, a zealot-archon ball that's bigger than your army is simply going to beat you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
