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Picklebread, giving good advice does not give you the right to insult the OP. Next time might I suggest constructive criticism instead of your entire last hypocritical paragraph. I mean, you are criticizing the OP for BM and then you unload a ton of BM yourself.
Now on to actually helping the OP. If you get lucky enough to kill his nexus in tvp, leave 1 marine in his natural, salvage the bunkers and leave. You have gotten a huge advantage, there is no need to get greedy staying in his natural as it can cost you the game. Next, major engagements, landing the EMPs on the archons is not enough. After landing them you must focus down the archons. They will die almost instantly.
I have some other things I can add but for the most part it has already been said. However if you want additional help in the matchup send me a PM and ill do my best to help you.
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Your attacks, apart from the first one, seemed to have no real purpose. Why did you drop his main? To kill stuff. But what else? You ran around and killed stuff and broke stuff. But you didn't expand behind the attacks, try to draw his army to one place so you could attack another, split his army or anything. You annoyed him and slowed his deathball's progress but not nearly enough.
TvP revolves around the third base. You let him take it too easy. You almost killed him, and then after he broke your bunkers, you let him get a free third. Third base for toss in in TvP lets toss open up all tech paths and allows for production of HT, archons, etc. while having a decent amount of units.
If you let toss reach 3/3/3 200/200 deathball, you better have maxxed and have good macro behind it, otherwise you're simply going to lose. If you're willing to engage as you did, you need to be able to weaken that army a lot and make sure he can't aggress or be sure of being able to defend against his new army soon.
1. Harassment and economic damage. You make it so that he has trouble remacroing that deathball.
2. Macro like crazy. have money in the bank and lots of rax around so you can get a new army.
In a straight up engagement, terran bio ball loses to zealot archon. There's several reasons in favor of toss.
1. Warp-ins. Toss will be able to reinforce faster than terran. Since zealot archon is gateway only, I can pull about 30 supply of zealot archon out of my ass in a battle from a proxy pylon. You on the other hand need to wait for a few seconds for marines and marauders to come out.
2. Force multiplier: a bigger cluster of toss units scales better than a bigger cluster of terran units. In short, toss units, while resource heavy, are supply efficient.
3. Map/ zone control. Zealots charge and establish the "line of battle" (although they can be kited). Storms need to be dodged, and essentially block off areas of the battlefield for several crucial seconds. FF do this as well.
4. Counters. Zealot archon is pretty much a counter to bio. Zealots can tank a lot of damage from marauders, and slice the crap out of bio units. Archons do ~30 damage to all bio units. That's a lot of damage- marines die pretty much instantly to that, marauders die in a few hits but do pretty much no damage to the zealots. Ghosts do help with sniping HT and EMPing, but yeah.
Here is what to do in the battle, which seems to have been covered pretty well.
1. Split units. Toss's DPS is greatest on clumped units (you know, AoE). So, splitting helps with that.
2. Kill expensive units. The archons and sentries and other gas heavy units are a priority.
3. Save your own expensive units. Medivacs and ghosts. Keep them alive.
Your early pressure was decent. However, the follow up was not so good. If you're putting on early pressure, you need to decide whether you're going to expand behind it or kill him. You sat there for awhile and let him recover. Your next push, by virtue of not having enough macro behind it b/c you didn't expand behind your first attack soon enough, was too weak (and poorly micro'd) to do anything.
Toss basically got to macro however he liked. Your drops did damage, but not nearly enough-- you need to do something that directly affects his macro-- the main base was mined out, and gateways don't matter really. You did maybe 2K minerals worth of damage with that drop and that was it. On the other hand, you could have done much more damage with a drop at a mining expo. Kill the nexus: 400 points. Each probe is 50 points. Then, 100 seconds of lost mining time. If a probe makes a trip round every 7 seconds, then that's a few thousand minerals potentially lost.
Going for the main base, in my opinion, is an all-in kind of thing to do. The goal is to make sure that since you're behind on macro, you destroy his production facilities so his eco advantage can't be utilized.
I'm just rambling. Hopefully something useful in there.
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if u want to win TvP go for 3rax marine medivac with stim combat shield and +1attack on 1base timing. its seriously way better than these shit 1-1-1 builds ive been seeing lately. Also regarding the post, TvP is so easy for the protoss lategame. U killing 6gateways and a cybercore, he's like i dont need no cyber core for zealots HERP DERP. If anyone wants more info on the build i described above vs protoss then PM me. the build has given me 90% winrate TvP.
User was temp banned for this post.
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if u want to win TvP go for 3rax marine medivac with stim combat shield and +1attack on 1base timing. its seriously way better than these shit 1-1-1 builds ive been seeing lately.
BO or replay, please.
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Reading through all this.. I'm a little sad that many people are so mean to the OP while giving advices
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On January 16 2012 23:10 Duggibobo wrote:
In this game I managed to kill his nexus with 2 rax pressure and I had a huge advantage. He quickly reclaimed it and I was on 3bases versus 2. Then he just started to turtle, and began to get 3/3/3 with a mass zealot/archon army.
You were a little ahead, until you lost your whole army for free. You did NOT have a huge advantage because you killed nothing except your opponents nexus.
The game went on and some of my drops did HUGE damage, one killed 6gateways and cybernetics etc.
Almost irrelevant because you didn't kill anything he was using. You got a supply lead but didn't push your advantage further. If his army arrives and your gameplan is to drop him to death, drop somewhere else!
From there on, the game was mine and he just went all-in, and guess what? HE WON
He had simply a pure only zealot/archon army, and I landed 12 perfect EMPs since he had no observer and I was cloaked, and every single unit he had was at 0 energy but still his archons does such an enormous amount of damage that just simply killed my whole army before I managed to kill the 10hp archons.
At the final confrontation he had a larger, more expensive army that was positioned much better and controlled better (which could just be a limitation at your level, Toss control is less demanding with that comp, mechanically). EMPs were a long way short of perfect (but not bad). You were missing 19 supply of units in that battle that weren't even there, moreover only half of your army even fought at a time because your units were so badly positioned. You would have EASILY won that fight if you had been positioned better and had all of your army there.
It's also worth pointing out that although it didn't cost you the game, it would have made life easier for you if you'd had more marines and less SCVs/marauders (vs his colossi-less comp). I wouldn't go past 60 SCVs in TvP unless you are playing a super-aggressive style. Some people will say you had too many ghosts, but I like your ghost numbers, ghosts in large numbers completely nullify the archons & HT, leaving just kitelots to deal with  .
Some things I could've done differently : Dropped alot since he couldn't handle it, I had a very good unit comp so that was no problem, but I really want to know what you can do in a battle like that, it seems impossible to win over it!
I had 2 medivacs full of units in his base that wasn't at the last fight ,even tho it wouldn't have mattered when his reinforcements came.
Drops are awesome, but are best used vs fast Colossi builds, IMO. In the late game drop for a REASON (eg: to secure an extra base, your 4th could have gone up WAY earlier).
Also those two medivacs not in the fight meant he was like 20 supply up on you in the battle (army supply) when Terran should ALWAYS be ahead in army supply late-game due to needing less workers for the same money (mules rock dude).
This plus poor (as in absolutely atrocious) positioning cost you the game.
I can not understand how he could hold push after push after push. WE both did some bad engagements but at the end it was in my favor since my macro and income was superior.
Your income and macro were at about the same level, sometimes you were ahead, and others you were behind. This had no real bearing on the game though, IMO.
Lots of other stuff to improve upon (as do we all), but that's the key reasons you lost. You were positioned very badly. You want your army to have a larger surface area that can shoot at his zealots. All of his zealots were attacking and only half of your army was. This is bad. Also, medivacs full of units  (this is just something that happens sometimes, I wouldn't worry about it).
The other, main, thing you need to take away is a more realistic view of what is going on in the game. You seem to think you are a long way ahead when you are at times actually behind. If you do an aggressive opening it costs you a LOT of economy, so you need to do a LOT of damage. Killing a Nexus qualifies, if you retreat afterwards. If you donate your army afterwards, it does not .
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Like a lot of people said I would recomend sniping the archons after.
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The other, main, thing you need to take away is a more realistic view of what is going on in the game. You seem to think you are a long way ahead when you are at times actually behind. If you do an aggressive opening it costs you a LOT of economy, so you need to do a LOT of damage. Killing a Nexus qualifies, if you retreat afterwards. If you donate your army afterwards, it does not .
This quote sums up most of my thoughts on the replay compared to the OP. You were fairly close to even on supply, upgrades, income, and bases for nearly the whole game, this is why he was able to hold push after push. Second, he was not all in with his final push since he still had two mining bases operational at that point in time. Your scv production was also sporadic, but for the most decent.
Even with all that you still should've won this game handily with the correct unit composition and with those two medivacs full of units in the final engagement. If you watch a lot of pro games, a terran maxed army will have somewhere between 14-16 ghosts in their army for situations like that. This is because ghosts not only have emp and snipe, but they also do surprising good dps against zealots. Not only did you only have 9 ghosts in your army, but they somehow got behind the whole engagement and were taking potshots at immortals. Second, you had 25 or so marauders in your composition against an army that had no storm, and very few armored units in it. In my opinion this is 10-15 too many, all of which could be ghosts and marines. The one thing I did like your composition though was the number of medivacs, that was just about right, and that you got air upgrades in case of a colossus transition.
In my experience with 3/3 on both sides and a compostion like that I just detailed against the one he had, the fight should go easily in your favor assuming a decent position for both sides and you not taking any massive storms.
That's just my two cents though, you can take it or leave it.
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Well in late game TvP, which is the worst MU imo, bio isn't very supply efficient which makes sense since it's a lot cheaper than mech and what not.
Anyway, the last battle seemed pretty even supply wise but you probably needed a better army composition. (ghosts)
You should probably also check out sc's matches today in the GSL as he uses his multitasking abilities to abuse the mobility of bio.
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On January 17 2012 01:07 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 01:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
TvP is badly designed in general.
I think they were expecting the Thor to play a major role in making mech viable in TvP, but the energy bar makes them too easily countered.
Axe 500mm cannon.
buff siege tank damage
bring mech back. This is the problem, but don't forget to buff Carriers. The utter lack of Mech and Stargate units in TvP is depressing. In response to the OP (beyond the obvious EMP solution to Archons) from my point of view as a Protoss player, you had too many Marauders and not enough Marine. Marauder heavy armies are good vs Colossus/Stalker/Sentry, but not nearly as effective vs Zealot/Archon/HT. In fact I'd say that Zealot/Archon/HT counters Marauder heavy armies. Marines give you a lot more DPS, which really helps vs the Zealots and Archons.
Do not buff carriers.
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The feedback you've received thus far is correct: Units in 2 medivacs, not enough marines, less than stellar kiting, no pre concave. Oh, and people forget that with great marine numbers comes great micro responsibility. 1 un dodged storm over a pack of marines and your done.
The only advice I'm gonna put in here is to target forges as the primary target in drops. If you snipe them against zealot/archon, its freakin huge.
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Thanks everyone, but how do I really know if I am far ahead or not? I feel that my game-sense or something is really lacking since If I kill 1 hatchery (for example a zergs 3d I think im way ahead etc) .. I have a really hard time really knowing whats going on.
I feel like I just want to do a push that simply outright kills my opponent, not just having fights that are about even all the time.. Any1 feeling the same way? I get so greedy and In most of my games I simply just attack with 100 supply for 20 minutes until he finally just wins
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A lot of the posts here have covered the mistakes in your replay pretty effectively.
Poor unit positioning plays a pretty big role. You need to remember that when you're both maxed on food and upgrades, how you engage will win or lose you the game. Your engagement was, to the best of my terran understanding, about as poor as it gets.
If you have the ability to dodge storms and/or pre-emp HTs, you will want more marines in your composition. Marines are fantastic support to marauders against chargelots because of their high DPS. The reason they aren't a mainstay in TvP like other terran matchups is because marines are effectively nullified by colossus. If your opponent isn't making colossus, adding more marines is a good choice.
Sniping gateways and a cybercore once a toss is on a saturated two+ base isn't as damaging as you'd expect. In PvT, the most important tech structures are your archives or robo bay, and then beyond that your forges. Chargelot/archon relies on fast upgrades to allow zealots to tank tons of damage. Sniping forges is often a good play. Also as covered previously, dropping a base that isn't mining is one of the weaker drops you can do. A protoss will simply remake the gateways, stay at home in the comfort of safe choke points, then move out once the tech is rebuilt. When you snipe gateways you want to be attacking simultaneously or immediately thereafter, so that the protoss doesn't have the ability to warp in defensive gateway units.
If you intend to idle full medvacs in the late game, it is imperative that you constantly poke the medivac back into the toss base as soon as the Protoss deathball leaves the natural to attack you. At a maxed supply, you should always have the scans to find the Protoss army. If the protoss turns around with his army, do the damage you can and leave. If he continues to attack, snipe all the pylons powering the gateways, which prevents gateway reinforcement and has potential to supply block the toss (in the lategame 200v200 phase, it'll take a while for the protoss to get those gates powered again- more than enough time for you to prepare your defensive concave)
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Take a look at some pro replays OP. Have you ever noticed how in macro games they usually take small victories and then back off? Maybe a pylon here, a tech structure there, etc. They do this because its so difficult to kill the opponent in one push, he will have a defender's advantage through terrain, structures and/or additional units. By taking these small leads and continuing to expand/add on production yourself you are making it more and more likely that you will win the game.
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archons are pretty darn good, but they get killed by 3 marine shots if they get mass emp'ed... pretty much the most costeffecient way to deal with them with bio i think. If your ghost count get really high archons should not be a problem at all, its like not having vikings to deal with collusi, but having ENOUGH that is the important factor, same with ghosts and archons if you can think of it like that.
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you lost too much to zelots, you need to make use of your snipes inorder to get rid of the zelots asap, the fact that he can max with that kinda expensive army means you fell behind in macro. Like stated above work on taking expansions faster.
another thing is its really not worth it to drop while you're maxed else he can just push and win.
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why not transition out of bio if the opponent is behind and pretty much commited to stay on their unit composition. I mean ghosts are nice and everything, but to win a fight against an army that only is able to meatgrind bio, you surely need some micro. Archons do the splash if you spread against them you open up to zealot damage.
PFs bunkers would have allowed you to hold a position against this forever to actually use your eco advantage, (atleast with +2 armor). Another thing is blue flame hellions, kills mass zealot pretty easily, and takes almost no damage from archons, so used right the perfect tank. And with emps the splash would even kill the archons.
But i guess the biggest mistake was indeed to many marauders, as their damage is horrible against zealots and archons. And they tank as good as ghosts. Who deal way more damage. Though can't run away, but if your ahead there is no reason to run away.
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why not transition out of bio if the opponent is behind and pretty much commited to stay on their unit composition
Transition into what? Sky? Mech?? hahahaha now THAT would be a way to throw away a won game.
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Shout out to Picklebread for that post. Post of the year so far? Ha 
It was *very* helpful to a Terran currently having some problems with his TvP, so thank you.
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Early on you killed his nexus, then played the next 5 minutes totally incorrectly. Left units in bunkers to die. Then overbunkered at home. Engaged at wrong times. He made mistakes too, but you didn't capitalize on your nexus snipe.
He hit you as you were killing buildings... so all the lost buildings didn't matter because his army was so much bigger than
yours on the field. He had nearly as many zealots as you had marines and marauders combined in that battle... how could he not win with that many zealots plus support units and the way you controlled your smaller army?
You let the medivacs trail behind and die to archon splash.
You had 6 archons one volley from death and didn't focus fire on them.
You didn't use your ghosts very well after the EMP. They were essentially focusing on an immortal, doing no damage.
Macro problems.
You only had 8 rax and 3000+ minerals in the bank.
Too many SCVs.
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On January 18 2012 00:48 soapyy. wrote:
Like a lot of people said I would recomend sniping the archons after.
Snipe only works on biolocial units. Or did you just mean focus fire?
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EPT
