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On January 16 2012 23:55 Kyuki wrote:
I'm not that high ranked, but (mid masters EU) and I feel exactly the same way but opposite (I'm toss). In a lategame situation where Terran replaces SCVs with mules and get enough ghosts, zeal / archon just doesnt cut it and you need to techswitch quite often (get like three roboes and swap between the two depending on how many vikings are out). The Terran army just gets so fucking big in comparission and the ability to drop is naturally accessed through medivacs which should be abused to hell.
Overall I think that Marauders are pretty bad vs a zeal/archon comp. The more marines you have the more DPS you will put out, and if you sprinkle a couple of marauders in for slow and engage the protoss army away from your own base (or at your base where zealots will charge your buildings...) you will rape zeal/archon.
Also -> medivacs baby, without colossi and storm, marine and medivacs rule in my experience.
When I watch the replay I see two things that stand out: You never replace your SVCs with orbitals/mules and you made too many marauders. A marine concave in that last fight (and your ghosts was out of combat after the EMPs, which is huge vs the zealots) and that would've melted. Replace like 8 marauders with 16 marines, and 40 SCVs for 40 marines in that fight and it would'´ve been extremly onesided in terrans favor.
Just my two cent
dude, that probably was the single most helpful thing someone ever told me about TvP. seriously. so thank you.
that's literally the first time someone gave me a good protoss opinion on the matchup. now i feel like i understand.
thanks again.
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Everything Picklebread said seemed right on mark.. I just want to reiterate how important it is to do multidrops. It's incredibly INCREDIBLY efficient against protoss because of how weak the ball is when separated. And if your apm allows, a drop at the main, third/fourth, with a well timed attack into his natural will almost certainly do large amounts of damage if microed correctly. Also, you raged real bad. I'd say you have to accept your mistakes and try to learn from the player who beat you rather than get mad and insult the living protoss out of him.
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On January 17 2012 00:27 pAzand wrote:
Snipe the archons after EMP? Build more marines if he don't have sufficient AOE!
Archons are only labelled as Psionic. You can't snipe them. if you could, then that would make TvP imbalanced for T.
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picklebread droppin some knowledge bombs in here
I hope the op takes note
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On January 17 2012 03:39 -orb- wrote:
picklebread droppin some knowledge bombs in here
I hope the op takes note
me too :D
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If he is so low on senties kiting is very important. Also if you realize he goes archon, zealot, you can go for blue flame hellions since you have an idle factory anyway and they just cost minerals which goes well with ghosts. If they are low on senties and stalkers you can often just run hellions around the map and kill probe lines in 5 seconds
I am sure now that you have all this helpful advice from the thread you can stop using the make-the-opponent-so-ashamed-for-my-comments-he-has-to-play-with-one-hand-because-the-other-is-busy-facepalming strategy and your game will soon improve.
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Well, if you know your opponents on two base and you're on three, you should just turtle up, bunker down and wait until he commits an army, especially vs protoss. One of two things will happen, he'll max, suicide in and win the game or he'll lose his army and not be able to rebuild and you'll win, OR he'll max, realize he can't break you, and try and get a really late third. If he does this, you can attack him and start whittling his army down because of your superior economy, expand again, etc. at this point the game is yours. Of course all the while you're bunkered down you can be dropping and harassing, and getting massive upgrades like you wouldn't be able to do if you were trying to beat him in a straight up fight. The important thing is: you can't beat an opponent who's on two base while you're on three in a straight up fight. It might happen from time to time, but in principal it just shouldn't work.
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@noisyninja: tvp is not balanced according to code S since septembre 2010, just saying.
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On January 17 2012 01:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
TvP is badly designed in general.
I think they were expecting the Thor to play a major role in making mech viable in TvP, but the energy bar makes them too easily countered.
Axe 500mm cannon.
buff siege tank damage
bring mech back.
I know that thors don't seem like a good idea in tvp because of the energy, but hear this out:
Lately I've been really suffering vs protoss (masters NA/EU so take this with a grain of salt) - I've been winning over 70% vs zerg, over 60% versus terran and only 27% vs protoss. I've been mixing in thors with my bio army and it has been giving me good results. As I am starting my 2/2 bio upgrades and landing my third CC to mine I've been starting 1 factory thor production, and eventually added on a second factory. I get ghosts out before thors.
My army mix has been thor/marauder/marine/ghost, and battles where I was getting creamed by storm and chargelots I am getting better outcomes - the thors can take so much punishment and do really well against stalkers. Even if they feedback a full energy thor, it still will have a couple hundred hitpoints. I feel much more robust lategame and am not fearing it like I was before. I first tried this on a whim after remember that game Fenix played with FUnited in the GSTL.
Again, I am a lowly masters player on NA/EU. However, this is what has been helping me out in the matchup as of late.
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On January 17 2012 04:03 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 01:03 Jermstuddog wrote:
TvP is badly designed in general.
I think they were expecting the Thor to play a major role in making mech viable in TvP, but the energy bar makes them too easily countered.
Axe 500mm cannon.
buff siege tank damage
bring mech back. I know that thors don't seem like a good idea in tvp because of the energy, but hear this out: Lately I've been really suffering vs protoss (masters NA/EU so take this with a grain of salt) - I've been winning over 70% vs zerg, over 60% versus terran and only 27% vs protoss. I've been mixing in thors with my bio army and it has been giving me good results. As I am starting my 2/2 bio upgrades and landing my third CC to mine I've been starting 1 factory thor production, and eventually added on a second factory. I get ghosts out before thors. My army mix has been thor/marauder/marine/ghost, and battles where I was getting creamed by storm and chargelots I am getting better outcomes - the thors can take so much punishment and do really well against stalkers. Even if they feedback a full energy thor, it still will have a couple hundred hitpoints. I feel much more robust lategame and am not fearing it like I was before. I first tried this on a whim after remember that game Fenix played with FUnited in the GSTL. Again, I am a lowly masters player on NA/EU. However, this is what has been helping me out in the matchup as of late.
Ive experimented with thors, and they are actully really good.
The unit comp you wanna go for is marine thor (you can sprinkle in marauders w.e.)1 raven with 2 pdds and i like to go up to 3 starports and just mass out cloak banshees. Its an extremely good unit composition, i reccomend trying it.
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Picklebreads a little harsh but everything he says is correct strategy wise. Plenty of T have figured this MU out and perform quite well according to the principles laid out. Most people have no ability to evaluate their own mistakes and admit to them. Easier to say somethings imbalanced, etc. Pretty much the exact mindset you see in 90% of fishy poker players. It's a god damn epidemic.
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8 rax on 5 base? come on now
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On January 17 2012 04:32 Foks wrote:
Picklebreads a little harsh but everything he says is correct strategy wise. Plenty of T have figured this MU out and perform quite well according to the principles laid out. Most people have no ability to evaluate their own mistakes and admit to them. Easier to say somethings imbalanced, etc. Pretty much the exact mindset you see in 90% of fishy poker players. It's a god damn epidemic.
Ya i was harsh. Just ticked me off he decided to bm his opponent. :/. He has trouble with a matchup he could ask for tips lol.
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LOL epic stuff Picklebread <333 I know exactly what you mean.
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Ghosts are the key,
get like 7ghosts in a maxed army,
cloak them and go emp every last protoss unit then 1a. ez
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On January 17 2012 06:33 GodOfProtoss wrote:
Ghosts are the key,
get like 7ghosts in a maxed army,
cloak them and go emp every last protoss unit then 1a. ez
He had 11 ghosts, or 9 I am not sure now, and he EMPed. I know you are protoss player, but your mind is so terranish. I am protoss player as well but whenever I see some other protoss saying bullsheet like this, I am pretty fure because as there is no way to take upper hand early game in PvT, PvT lategame is very eazy, and whenever I got 4 th base, I simply just go EZ mode, and I dislike it, to be honest. It seems stupid that P>T late game while T>P early game in matter of forgiveness of play...
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As a high diamond toss, id like to say that alhtough you lost the match, you lost it to yourself and not to him. If you maintained you macro and made more rax and uped to 3/3 and had brilliant EMPS, there shudnt be a way you can lose. I think that you just didnt have enough units. Terran is a race of mid speed army reporoduction and mid damage/survivablilty (IMO) so you need to take advantage that you can reproduce an army quicker. You did no army trading in the midgame which made the late game harder for you. Terrans need to trade armies bcus they are cheaper then Protoss armies and Terrans need to expand crazy or mass orbitals for income to afford 15+ rax and just out produce the protoss by all means. Might sound retarted, but 15+ rax can beat a protss without ghost/ vikings if you get good engagments and macro well
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He had 11 ghosts, or 9 I am not sure now, and he EMPed. I know you are protoss player, but your mind is so terranish. I am protoss player as well but whenever I see some other protoss saying bullsheet like this, I am pretty fure because as there is no way to take upper hand early game in PvT, PvT lategame is very eazy, and whenever I got 4 th base, I simply just go EZ mode, and I dislike it, to be honest. It seems stupid that P>T late game while T>P early game in matter of forgiveness of play..
Thank you.
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On January 17 2012 06:33 GodOfProtoss wrote:
Ghosts are the key,
get like 7ghosts in a maxed army,
cloak them and go emp every last protoss unit then 1a. ez
good number if its like straight chargelot archon very very heavy archon i like like 15. gotta hit them emps ya know :/
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EPT
