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[G] Guide for low level Terrans. 3 Rax. - Page 3

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PapaJed Sweden211 Posts January 03 2012 09:33 GMT #41 Great guide, thank you. I´d like to add that Trump, a master leauge terran, teaches this build on his stream. He´s a very good (and patient) teacher and you can watch his lessons for free. Link: www.justin.tv/trumpsc/videos (search for lessons) He also streams his ladder games and commentates while playing.

necroticah South Africa233 Posts January 03 2012 12:08 GMT #42 Great Guide and I'm definitely gonna try it. I hadn't gotten the chance to see the video just yet, however I have a question about your build order. "10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery 15 Orbital Command 16 Marine Techlab on your barracks after the 1st marine Start Marauder and Stim research At 300 minerals build 2 more barracks When these barracks are done add reactors on them Get concussive shells after stim Move out when concussive shells is almost done Cut army production and get a command center, then go back to army production" Shouldn't you make your marine at 15? 16 doesn't seem right. (after your Orbital Command finishes) I'm not bashing the guide, I'm just making sure for us lower end noobs.

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 03 2012 14:08 GMT #43 necroticah, what I was trying to say is get 15 scvs and then build OC and marine at the same time. Because you are building marine your supply will be 16. Also some people say you should build 16 scvs before OC, there was a thread about. In the long run its better. kofman, I do not have shields in my build. But yeah more marines. I watched the game on shattered, I dont have time to watch more replays right now. Man, this was funny - he had no idea. And this guy doesnt like sentries. Plus a lot of space on shattered. Gg. Tiotion, I dont have any replays of TvT at hand and I dont really have time to make any. Check out the replay by DSNOVA earlier in this thread and my analysis to it, there is a drop in there. He actually lost the game just the way you told: wall, then drop. But he had so many other mistakes and still was ahead most of the time. So yeah, perfect example. Now think about this. You are saying that your opponent is able to defend your attack and drop you at the same time. That is only possible if he has A LOT MORE stuff than you do. Or he is a really good player and does something like defensive bunker (actually he needs more than 1 bunker to hold off 3 rax), repairs it (them) and does some sort of hellion drop \ banshee harass. You wont meet this kind of player in lower leagues. In fact by doing this build you should have WAY MORE stuff than your opponent. When you see that your attack cant kill him, start rallying to your natural and pull back. You should have enough to hold any drops.

IRL_Sinister Ireland621 Posts January 03 2012 20:31 GMT #44 Depending on time you drop the Rax and opt to build your final SCV before OC the Marine could be as late as 17. Then again, that's a bit more advanced than basic level gameplay.

chlindell Sweden68 Posts January 04 2012 00:46 GMT #45 Nice guide! I'm usually Z and played a little P as well but this made me try terran. Ran a few games vs AI and the build was kinda easy to learn and felt pretty smooth. Tried playing a few custom games but I'm not sure how to follow up if my push fails in TvT so I had to wing it which was a bit hard for me since I've just played terran in the campaign You do mention unit compositions in the video but not really how to get there. Should I stop making marauders and go for marines+tanks+medivacs+upgrades right away if i looks like the push will fail or what's the plan? In both my TvT:s I was facing marine/tank/viking/medivac builds. Marines+tanks stopped my push and we were about even in army and SCV:s after that. First game I just kept making MM and added medivacs but lost to a tank push. Second game I tried adding a fact+T for tanks, a starport+R for medivacs/vikings and then 2 ebays for upgrades and then an armory. Won that one due to an imba MMM drop (nice to not be on the receiving end for a change!) but think I got lucky since I was kinda stuck on 2 base and he had more tanks than me. No point posting replays since my macro was bad, would just like some kind of rough gameplan like you posted for TvP earlier: "So you better go back, put down a couple of bunkers for safety and macro. Repair the bunkers, when repairng put the scvs in front - it makes it harder to forcefield the bunkers. The way I would play after this is probably get combat shield after concussive. Add factory, then starport and reactor on factory. Swap, get medivacs. Get ebay for upgrades." Also, when should I (very roughly since I know it depends on a lot of things) take a third vs T/P/Z? Thanks!

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 04 2012 01:11 GMT #46 chlindell, try to have a 3rd 15 minutes into the game. Well once again the goal of doing this build is to improve your mechanics, but if you want some details on how to follow up TvT here we go: I like what you did in the second game - adding factory for tanks, startport with reactor and ebays. After the combat shields are done you can float rax and get reactor on it and build a new factory on the now vacant techlab. So you'd have 3 reactored rax, reactored starport and 2 factories and ebays ... actually that sounds like too much production for 2 base, but I dont have anything exact figured out and I guess you'll be fine anyway. To not lose vs a siege push get a lot of vision on the map - control watchtowers, etc. Engage far away from your base when the opponent is moving and not sieged, as soon as he sieges juts fall back unless you are 100% sure you can kill of that army. If the opponent has no expansion and you do, pull scvs from your natural to clear the tanks, kill everything and then counter attack - it would be very difficult for him to hold. And drops are the best thing a Terran has. Imba marinvacs :D

wOrD yO Australia119 Posts January 04 2012 01:18 GMT #47 hey thanks alot I will show my friend.

DanUnited Australia2 Posts January 04 2012 06:57 GMT #48 Cheers for this build Khazidhea. I've been really discouraged about my crappiness since getting back into SC2 after 6 months break and was very keen on learning good macro mechanics to get out of bronze and move beyond. I won the first match I played using this build (TvZ). Despite the fact I fell back into bad bronze habits of not building scvs, getting supply blocked etc, the build gave me a solid base to keep going and eventually i wore my opponent down. Granted, he seemed as bad as I was, but its encouraging nonetheless!

thesums Taiwan257 Posts January 04 2012 07:34 GMT #49 this can get you out of bronze, but against different matchups you need different variations and also need to adapt to what is scouted. I find on ladder most people are cheesy because they want to win many games to rank up, but I prefer long ones. So the general rule is just do be 1 base up and defend their 1 base aggression = WIN. Unless you see expand ALWAYS expect one base all-in type of build. I think if people want to do cheesy builds should follow the GSL ones. Vs Zerg - Hellion marauder stim timing . - 2 port banshee (wait for 4) This is non gsl, but if 2 player map = 6 RAX, if they FE Vs T Many builds, but at gold/plat level I found that mech is good. Do hellion expand and have then positioned well on the ramp and go quick raven then into tanks.This can hold 3 rax, I also build a bunker with the initla 2-3 marines as well. - Cloak banshees are still good too, but I usually prefer to defend. This is because if they scan you with banshees, it can get difficult Vs P This is hardest if they play long game, so I almost wish they try to all in me. I build 2-3 bunkers do 1 rax marauder expand, into 2 more rax and tech to starport, and do a medivac stim timing, which will end the game. I feel this 3 rax is too risky, if they FE into 2 spines, with ling and bane support, it will be difficult for you to break it and how to transition nicely?

_Ixion 1 Post January 04 2012 08:24 GMT #50 Thankyou for the guide Khazidhea. It was very helpful. I drilled the build 10 times vs AI, then took it onto ladder. Still along way to go. I rarely have as many units as you did vs AI at the 7.30 mark. My best I think was 1 marauder short of your benchmark. I always move out anyway and see what happens. I have also yet to start stim by 3.50, usually by 4.00. BTW the benchmarks were very helpful for the newbie, as it becomes clear the inefficency of our/my execution. But even so this build in bronze is quite good. I have begun to feel sorry for my opponenets when this build wins easily. Hopefully I can refine my play (start using ctrl groups!) and climb the ladder. Anyway thanks again.

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 04 2012 19:53 GMT #51 There are a lot of cheeses, but if you arent good and controlling your army and reifnorcing - marauder hellion will get owned. Lings surround hellions, kill them no problem, clean up marauders. You say 2 spines with ling and bane support. How about the same vs marauder hellion? You cant just throw around arguments like that. It's been stated multiple times - it is very hard to transition out of, but you have a high chance of winning or dealing a lot of damage even in master league, watch replays by kofman on 2nd page. And all that is just ... uhm ... side effect. Because what you wanna is train your mechanics. You should be able to outproduce your opponent at all points in time. Hope it helps

Eltanin 8 Posts January 04 2012 22:11 GMT #52 There is a lot of good information on these forums, but this is the post that finally made me join. I'd already decided to teach myself mechanics using this method, so your post was very timely! I especially like the benchmarks; it gives me an objective target to work towards. The build I had been using used a second reactor for a 1:1 Marine:Marauder ratio rather than your build's 5:1. It also allows me to have combat shields when I start my push. Would you mind saying a few words about why you prefer your build? Also, might Combat Shields be better than Stims for the early push (given that we're not likely to be doing awesome micro tricks at our level), especially using your Marine heavy build? That would be an extra 130 hp spread across your Marines when you first go into battle.

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 04 2012 23:30 GMT #53 I prefer combat shields defensively and stim for timing attacks. I didnt do much testing on 2 techlab variation ... we had some discussion in this thread, the conclusion was you cant really get both combat shields and stim, but you can get stim and concussive and thus attack earlier. I like more marines as it is more dps. Finally, as long as you just produce from every structure it wouldnt matter that much, you should win anyway :D

Trepp Canada3 Posts January 05 2012 00:04 GMT #54 Would someone be kind enough to tell me what I did wrong? I'm very new and trying to learn I loss this game VS a zerg, I'm in bronze league. http://www.mediafire.com/?li0iu3l3lq4os73

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 05 2012 01:03 GMT #55 Woah that is not a bronze level zerg you are playing against, mate. He 15 hatched, scouted your aggression, had good map presence and reacted well. Plus he did not waste his banelings on marauders and on the other hand your pretty much did not micro. Is it a custom game? If it was ladder you just got really unlucky. I would ignore it and do the same stuff you did, because your execution was pretty good. A couple of things you did wrong: - messed up the wall - you did not cut production to get CC at 8 min - you move out when the upgrade is done. instead, move out earlier so you would engage when the upgrade is done. Now if you wanna learn how to have a chance of actually beating good zerg here is what you can do. Deny overlord scout, dont let him see 3 rax. Marauders kinda give it away but keep 1 marauder in front, behind the depos, keep 3 on the edge for the overlord and the rest is hidden. You do not really need concussive vs zerg so you can attack right after stim, 50 seconds earlier. Plus micro. Spread marines vs banes and use marauders kinda like a wall. Man, this is not such an easy thing to do. If you see defenses like these (and you should've realized in this game you cant break them - you saw banelings and spines) ... retreat, build more stuff and then ALLIN with all your scvs hoping that he overdroned this time. But seriously this zerg was playing far above bronze level and you need a proper build to kill him.

Trepp Canada3 Posts January 05 2012 01:20 GMT #56 Thanks for the quick reply =) I met the guy while laddering, he was top 8 silver. About the wall, I know I messed up, I used to wall properly but then I read a post (I think it was yours) saying that if you have to lift off to add the tech lab, you did it wrong. I figured I'd place stuff randomly in front of the ramp to be able to build the tech without lifting off I just read about the building grid so I'll make sure to turn that on, it should allow me to wall better. As for concussive, should I only wait for it when facing against protoss? I've played about 15 games in total with your build (and maybe 25 games of SC2 in total) and the only time it made a significant difference was against protoss, where they'd sometimes try to move back their zealot,allowing me some free kills. Should I move out earlier versus terran also? I know I didn't micro and to be honest,I had spotted the banelings but I simply don't know how to micro accordingly. I'm sure there's a guide about that kind of stuff somewhere, if you could link me to a good guide with this kind of basic stuff I'd really appreciate. Thanks for the guide, it was very well written and it's quite simple, but I feel like I'm learning a lot of stuff when doing the build over and over again. I have no prior RTS experience and before meeting this zerg, my record was something like 12-2.

peidongyang Canada2084 Posts January 05 2012 01:25 GMT #57 its funny how people say 3 rax doesnt work in masters and u realize people metagame themselves to death by building no units after the usual "2 rax" timing (vs P) and prepare for 9 minute pushes and ur push just happens to be right between the two timings

Khazidhea Kazakhstan65 Posts January 05 2012 10:20 GMT #58 Yeah you can try playing without concussive in tvz and tvt, its up to you. About the micro - just TRY to do it. As far as I can see everything else is good, so now TRY to improve your micro. Dont worry about any fancy techniques, just move back 1 step, shoot, move back, shoot. If you see banelings - split marines. There are custom micro maps for stutter step, baneling micro. But for now do it in real games because you dont have to reinforce army or build workers in those maps. This Zerg must've been playing his placement match or something.

Terranist United States2496 Posts January 05 2012 10:45 GMT #59 it works rather well still on some maps still in TvT and TvP. not really a thinkers strat but it works none the less. it's the equivalent of smashing the triangle piece through the rectangle hole in a kids toy. it'll go through if you hit hard enough.

Danglars United States12133 Posts January 05 2012 11:07 GMT #60 On January 03 2012 10:14 CCalms wrote: It's spelled "cannon" btw... Call a little more attention to this because in the video and in the post ... it's kinda glaring at 4 mentions. Unless you're talking about what ESPORTS can to about sets of rules that are hastily being thrown out there. Then we can talk about which standard we're rushing. Please edit. As to the post, pick whatever Terran allin suits you if you wanna throw out some aspects of the game to focus in on others. I have no problem with this method of teaching. I personally learned more doing slightly-stupid builds (Okay, over a year ago, 3gate expo PvZ into 5gate, never ceasing the attack, proxy pylon walking to his base) just to focus my mind. You can develop some bad habits from doing nonstop allins like this, so you gotta pre-assume that your practice partner support network or coach can help you ditch the bad habits and keep the good ones.

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