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On January 03 2012 21:08 necroticah wrote:
Great Guide and I'm definitely gonna try it.
I hadn't gotten the chance to see the video just yet, however I have a question about your build order.
"10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command
16 Marine
Techlab on your barracks after the 1st marine
Start Marauder and Stim research
At 300 minerals build 2 more barracks
When these barracks are done add reactors on them
Get concussive shells after stim
Move out when concussive shells is almost done
Cut army production and get a command center, then go back to army production"
Shouldn't you make your marine at 15? 16 doesn't seem right. (after your Orbital Command finishes)
I'm not bashing the guide, I'm just making sure for us lower end noobs.
You are correct, it's the OP's mistake and the OP should be edited. You always list when you make the marine, not when it's done. It's much easier to know, the food count, when it starts rather than when it's finished.
edit: just noticed there's no supply depots in the build. A person that needs work on their mechanics definitely needs everything involved in the build.
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Kazakhstan65 Posts
On January 05 2012 20:07 Danglars wrote:Call a little more attention to this because in the video and in the post ... it's kinda glaring at 4 mentions. Unless you're talking about what ESPORTS can to about sets of rules that are hastily being thrown out there. Then we can talk about which standard we're rushing. Please edit. As to the post, pick whatever Terran allin suits you if you wanna throw out some aspects of the game to focus in on others. I have no problem with this method of teaching. I personally learned more doing slightly-stupid builds (Okay, over a year ago, 3gate expo PvZ into 5gate, never ceasing the attack, proxy pylon walking to his base) just to focus my mind. You can develop some bad habits from doing nonstop allins like this, so you gotta pre-assume that your practice partner support network or coach can help you ditch the bad habits and keep the good ones.
Ooops I think my edit didnt go through, but the "canon" \ "cannon" should be fixed and I put up an annotation to cover up this mistake in the video.
I dont think you can teach just any allin to the beginner. Some of them require good micro and most of them would require very precise timings. Plus more often then not for a successfull allin you would need to pull scvs and you would never expand. Here we have an expansion because at lower level players often overcommit to defenses for no reason and it is not uncommon for the first push to "fail" and then it somewhat transitions into macro game.
RooStaR, I switched the description to 15 OC + Marine. I talked about the depos in the vid, but now I added them to the descirption as well.
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You might consider explaining how to defend a roachrush, either onebase 7RR oder 2base 8RR, since 7RR hits at about 5/5:30 and 8RR at 7:00 min (both possible with massling followup to use the broken wallin) and both can be dangerous if you dont respond correctly and have only marines.
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Kazakhstan65 Posts
Qgelfich, did you read it at all? Or watched the vid? Or you just typed some random thing that came to your mind?
I mean, seriously? You say "only marines", but the build clearly states get marauders after the first marine! I am pretty sure roach rush vs this = autolose for zerg. You have marauders to kill roaches, you have marines to kill overlords ... but you dont even need to kill that overlord because marauders will kill roaches anyway. I would be amazed if you show me a replay of someone losing to it.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
Yep, seems like a pretty hard-counter to any roach rush.
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Interesting, as I've been three-raxing myself to get solid mechanics down and concentrating on timing of buildings, units, and also tech. I can't say when exactly I'm hitting milestones, but then I'm using a different version of this build. Is there any significant difference between this build, and the one described by Adrenaline Seed in this thread?
Accelerated Learning for Low Level Terrans
Both wind up with a strong timing attack at ~7:00 to 7:30, and I have to say 3raxing has gotten me from Bronze to Silver in the course of one season (last season). But is there much of a difference in your building timings versus Adrenaline Seed's with regards to specific vulnerabilities/weak windows in the build? From what I can tell, you're going for a pretty standard OC opening into 3 rax - but heavier on the marines than the build I use as you go with two reactors and one tech lab instead of two tech labs and one reactor.
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Kazakhstan65 Posts
Wow that's a pretty cool thread, haven't seen it before. I'll put the link to it in the OP.
The timings changed due to stim research time nerf and the difference between 2 techlabs vs 2 reactors was discussed a lot in previous posts, please take time to read it. But basically 2 reactors = more marines = more dps.
The weakness of both builds is beinf overly aggressive with a very late expo, on the verge of being all-in. But the point is to improve your mechanics using a simple build which you can easily benchmark so dont worry too much about it. I think I gave a lot of details on the build so you can easily compare what I should do and what actually happened. It should not be hard to switch from 2 techlabs to 2 reactors or vice versa.
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I heard "3 rax was good in TvP" when I was at a lower level and devised my own build order for 3 rax with 2 reactors. It had stim, concussive and +1 weapons and was slightly more allin than this version.
I can confirm that it worked until about mid platinum.
I'm sure it would work at higher leagues (and indeed I use a different 3 rax if I scout a protoss doing an appropriate build now), the build mainly requires micro and the ability to not overextend.
One main point is if the protoss is on 1 base, what are they doing? They should be on 2 base by the time you get there. Chances are they are doing some 1 base push. This means it is probably not wise to attack up the ramp. If you put down your expo and a couple of bunkers you will be ahead on expo so this is a viable transition. You can also transition straight into factory as you push, which helps you get quick medivacs so your bio force is a lot stronger.
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Good work sir, now in the future instead of trying to heLp my own newbie friends WhO just bought the game, I can just send them Here. pretty much everything in the First 9 minutes of their First few games is covered Here. This is a great Way to learn someone about the game. Kudos, bro. oh well, just think of that wiki logo as a cool present 
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If you do not want to micro vs banelings, just get siege tanks. Pros do this as well, once you see banes just stim and run back, and try to target tanks on the banes. Once the banelings are gone, your marines, medivacs + stim are very effective vs muta, lings (even roaches).
The other option is to just move marauders foward during engagements (do not stim I think they can obsorb 6 banes). Or even better if you have thors to tank the banes (They can tank i think 20 banes)
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Hmm. I'll have to try out this version; more marines will probably make it more effective in a number of circumstances, although the trade-off of more marines and less marauders versus more marauders but an overall smaller group of marines has been problematical for me in some games where the hero banshee pops out while my marine count has been whittled down enough, and the added DPS against a protoss that has remained on one base to throw a few immortals into the mix should be helpful as well. (Plus, stim is done earlier in this particular version.)
When it comes to protoss, I usually will either save a scan or throw a single marine up the ramp to check for sentries; likewise the same for the presence of siege tanks. A zerg with a queen and a spine crawler at their natural usually isn't a problem if you micro the marines around abit, especially if a swarm of zerglings pops out.
Even when I don't outright win with the first push, I usually can manage enough damage to offset my losses and the lack of an earlier expand so I don't get too far behind, or even wind up a little ahead.
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Thanks for the guide, I was going to try Reactor Hellions FE as my first build, but with my lack of macro and micro this seems better for now.
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I vote for a "slightly higher level" terran guide where you teach a 2 base timing in a similar way.
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Kazakhstan65 Posts
I have plans for making a "slightly higher level" terran guide in about two weeks, after I am done with my exams. Actually, three different builds, one for each matchup.
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Wow, this guide is amazing. I am the target audience, a silver level player who is switching from Protoss to Terran, and I Thank you very much for all your hard work making this guide.
One thing that I especially liked about the guide that I have not seen in lower level guides (when I was starting Protoss), was "here are examples of me executing the build with very low apm and low multitasking/scouting/decision making." This was one thing that for example that day[9] didn't do in his mechanics dailies, where he split his workers at the begining, and was still doing a lot more with his camera.
I have been using this build and winning the vast majority of my games. While I am positive I could use this build for a long time, I am eagerly awaiting the "slightly higer level" terran guide.
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Thanks to this awesome guide i've been using the 3rax build all day.
However, i encountered a 1rax expand build which seems like a hard counter to this strategy. Basically i'd have to beat ~20 combat shielded marines with a bunker with my 3rax stim army and that just doesn't work.
At that point i either trade armies and i'm behind because my expo is later than his. OR
I fall back and i'm still behind because of my late expo.
So do you switch strategies when you scout no-gas (which probably means a fast expand) with your first scv scout? I'm thinking tanks...
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Kazakhstan65 Posts
Thanks guys for feedback
Elp, please attach a replay next time. I really doubt in low level player doing a good 1 rax FE. But if you wanna be fancy (and you dont wanna be fancy, you wanna work on your mechanics while doing easy build) - you can apply pressure earlier and expand earlier. Assuming he has a wall you can harass the wall abusing greater range of marauders and marauders kill depos really fast. Even if he doesnt you can still be annoying using larger range of marauders. But if while you are doing that your minerals get to a 1000 ... your mechanics are still too bad to try this kind of stuff.
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On January 07 2012 07:47 Elp wrote:
Thanks to this awesome guide i've been using the 3rax build all day.
However, i encountered a 1rax expand build which seems like a hard counter to this strategy. Basically i'd have to beat ~20 combat shielded marines with a bunker with my 3rax stim army and that just doesn't work.
At that point i either trade armies and i'm behind because my expo is later than his. OR
I fall back and i'm still behind because of my late expo.
So do you switch strategies when you scout no-gas (which probably means a fast expand) with your first scv scout? I'm thinking tanks...
I'd love to see a replay of that. Are you sure you are executing the build correctly?
The reason I ask is that a Marine has a 25 second build time, as does the Tech Lab (which is necessary for Combat Shields). Barracks have a 65 second build time. So even if your opponent started his Barracks immediately, and minerals were never an issue, if your attack hits at 7:30, he has only had time to make about 13 Marines from his one Barracks. You should have about 13 Marines and 7 Marauders with Stim.
Given that he is trying to defend an expansion (rather than his ramp), this seems like you should easily wipe out his expansion, even if he has a Bunker or two. You may not have the muscle to fight your way into his base (especially if he has further Bunkers on his ramp), but if nothing else you have put him back down to one base, whereas you have your expansion starting. Plus, you have the ability to produce units more quickly than him.
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Thanks for this build!
I recently switched from Zerg to Terran and I was looking for a basic one size fits all build to practice with.
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Worked up the nerve to finish up my placement matches today...turned out to be a pretty fun experience.
Won 2, lost 3 in placement (had to leave early one game, might have won it, who knows?). Got placed in Silver. Played two more games and just crushed both of my opponents. Just have to thank the OP for putting this guide up, it really helps us noobs. Looking forward to your next installment.
2 of the games I lost were against zergs that 15 hatched, put up 3-4 spines, and then made a ton of lings and banes...any thoughts on how to deal with this? If I see it again, I'll try to put up two CCs and get my tanks out quickly, but I could use some more input. Thanks again!
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EPT
