EPT[G] PvT: MC's 1 gate FE - Page 8
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Kefka.dancingmad
Canada262 Posts
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charliexjustice
United States42 Posts
One question: if my probe manages to scout their build early on, should I still do the poke if I see the second barracks building? I did the poke anyways just to be safe one game and lost my stalker to concussive (which seemed obvious due to scouting 2nd barracks building), but then another game I saw a second barracks building and decided against the poke and lost to a 1 base 4 rax allin. He killed my scout at the tower at the last second, then moved out. It seems like Terran can hide their unit count and only show 1-2 marines/marauder to hold off the poke if they want to, which could technically be anything from 1raxtech lab FE to 3 rax. TLDR: Probe sees second barracks building: still do the poke at 5 mins or not? | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
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ant885
United States52 Posts
 I'd be interested in seeing Whitera's PvT (if you watch his stream that is) Often times he does a pretty cool build, it's something like: (the building order varies sometimes, presumably based upon what he scouts) 1gate expand 3gates/council/forge (goes for armor and charge first) 6gates/templar archive/second forge when researching plus 3 armor (then gets weapons/shields together) but what I find interesting is he usually takes like a 9minute or less third! I haven't had time to really analyze it much to see if it's a safe/standard style or he's just being super risky, but he seems to do well ^_^. just a suggestion xD also this is my standard pvt opening now @ mid/high masters, with good success. So much thanks | ||
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Artisian
United States115 Posts
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Contractor
United States41 Posts
Do I wait for warp in? (I feel like I run the risk of losing the Nexus) Do I engage with my 1 zealot + 2 stalkers... I normally lose this engagement...how should I micro my units? I try to target fire the marauder then kite the marines, but normally my units die and he kills the nexus while I'm finally able to clean it up with sufficient gateway units. | ||
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Flying Potato
United States77 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On December 29 2011 08:27 Artisian wrote: looks great. Any chance you'd link a suggested variation for going against a gassless fe? You can cancel the zealot and go for huk 20 nexus then pressure the front. So in this situation the build would look like: 9 pylon * 12 gate -> scout * 14 gas * 15 pylon 17 core 18 zealot ~3:11 leave as the first marine comes out, you see the cc building / assume fe cancel zealot cut probes at 20 pull 2 probes off gas send a probe to natural warpgate tech ** 20 nexus stalker resume mining gas with 3 probes 22 gate 22 gate stalker resume probes pylon *** @ 100% warpgate warp-in 3 stalkers * chrono nexus ** chrono warpgate tech 4 times *** proxy | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On January 02 2012 13:20 Contractor wrote: Even as a master player, I still don't know what to do vs 2 rax reactor techlab push with this build order which counters it. Do I wait for warp in? (I feel like I run the risk of losing the Nexus) Do I engage with my 1 zealot + 2 stalkers... I normally lose this engagement...how should I micro my units? I try to target fire the marauder then kite the marines, but normally my units die and he kills the nexus while I'm finally able to clean it up with sufficient gateway units. The most important thing is not losing your early units during your poke at the front and being on time with your 2nd and 3rd gates. If I expect the 2rax reactor techlab push I delay the robo and chrono out a sentry followed by a stalker, Don't engage fully until warp-ins but poke at his army where you can without getting hit by a marauder and deny bunkers as best as possible. Warp-in 3 stalkers into your natural and go with guardian shield 6 stalkers and a zealot. Use your stalkers to focus fire the marauders and snipe any scvs building bunkers and then micro stalkers against the left over marines. As long as bunkers don't get up should be pretty straight forward. You have to be active on your scouting though, make sure there is no bunker on top of his ramp before you decide to delay the robo. | ||
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Contractor
United States41 Posts
On January 02 2012 15:07 Jaeger wrote: The most important thing is not losing your early units during your poke at the front and being on time with your 2nd and 3rd gates. If I expect the 2rax reactor techlab push I delay the robo and chrono out a sentry followed by a stalker, Don't engage fully until warp-ins but poke at his army where you can without getting hit by a marauder and deny bunkers as best as possible. Warp-in 3 stalkers into your natural and go with guardian shield 6 stalkers and a zealot. Use your stalkers to focus fire the marauders and snipe any scvs building bunkers and then micro stalkers against the left over marines. As long as bunkers don't get up should be pretty straight forward. You have to be active on your scouting though, make sure there is no bunker on top of his ramp before you decide to delay the robo. Ok thanks...that sounds good. I'm engaging to early I think. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
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pepsimaxibon
61 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
You can simply go zealot-stalker-stalker with 2 boosts on the stalkers and do the poke to see what they are doing, not scouting saves about 100 minerals which can really make the expo faster while at the same time not needing to cut probes as much. The stalkers allow you to respond to anything in time basically, against some rare no gas marine all-ins you might have to cancel the nexus but the loss of minerals then is the same you had already gained by not scouting so no biggie. Besides if you make a pylon so you can walloff the no gas marine all-in really isn't that problematic. Against the rest zealot-stalker-stalker-stalker provides enough defense to be safe really. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Currently I'm doing the old 20-food 1-Gate FE and warping in 3 Stalkers on my first round of warp-ins @ 6 mins, giving me a total of 5 stalkers. I then use these Stalkers to poke their front (I arrive just before they usually push out) and if I scout 10+ marines I know they are doing the naked 4-Rax and I can kite his marines all the way across the map. This is the best build I could come up with to deal with this push and since naked 4-Rax pressure doesn't really see much play at the pro levels I do not know what is optimal. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On January 03 2012 15:24 Skyro wrote: Hey Monk what do you do if you scout no gas from Terran? It may be worth it to detail a guide out specifically for this since it seems to be very common on ladder and this version of 1-Gate FE isn't optimal in that scenario. In particular, the gasless 1-Rax FE into naked 4-Rax 14 Marine push @ ~7mins seems to be very, very popular @ low masters. Currently I'm doing the old 20-food 1-Gate FE and warping in 3 Stalkers on my first round of warp-ins @ 6 mins, giving me a total of 5 stalkers. I then use these Stalkers to poke their front (I arrive just before they usually push out) and if I scout 10+ marines I know they are doing the naked 4-Rax and I can kite his marines all the way across the map. This is the best build I could come up with to deal with this push and since naked 4-Rax pressure doesn't really see much play at the pro levels I do not know what is optimal. Not sure how much you'll value this response, but I think what you're doing is actually fine. Depending on when you scout a no gas expand you can decide to delay your core or just pull probes off gas and cut everything for a fast nexus. On larger maps though I think the 20 food expand into warpgate pressure is fine since you can devote all of your chronoboost to probes after your initial poke. | ||
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sofakng
100 Posts
On December 13 2011 11:10 Tazerenix wrote: I believe HuK himself said his 20 food nexus had some flaws against 2 rax reactor first, that's what he said at least. On really big maps I like to do the Axslav style Nexus first. Against gas you go pylon nexus gateway pylon gateway gas core and chrono out your first few zealots whilst getting a second gas then chronoing stalkers to hold any sort of fast 2 rax rush, and if you scout no gas you can just go 1 gate chronoboosting out of it then dropping 2 more gates some time after your core is up. On something like cross positions Shattered/Meta, TDA, cross Antiga and Shakuras it's amazingly safe against anything but scv allins. Im not sure if my 1 gate expo is identical to huks but I learned it from the thread about it. Maybe mines a bit different I go 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 15 pylon 17 or 16 cyber depends on if you scout stalker when possible chrono only wg expo 2 more gates stalker 2 pylons few probes should be able to warp in 3 stalkers now You basically have 5 stalkers vs his 6-7 marines and one marauder. focus fire the marauder and its gg I cut quite a few probes but it really is impossible to lose vs any 2 rax unless he pulls quite a few scvs and you either skimp on units or micro incredibly poorly. | ||
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SelK
France81 Posts
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done. I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. | ||
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hypnossc2
144 Posts
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