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On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
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On January 03 2012 22:40 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono. I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
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Ive been using a fast expand build but now I think I am going to switch to this one it seems very good! thank you!
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On January 03 2012 22:40 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono. I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Really interesting, I used to go for Huk's FE as my staple build in PvT when it got popular, but always thought it wasn't doing that well in the economy department since you have to cut probes earlier than other 1Gate FE builds (which, I believe, means not having that 19th probe's benefits starting to add up early; just like the difference between pylon and gate scouting) and for a longer period of time (since you have less probes, pooling 300 minerals for 2 gates take even more time). Even the slighty earlier nexus wouldn't make it worth, to me.
Guess I was wrong, and since the best answer to a gasless expand implies more focus on economy and stalkers to defend any possible un-upgraded marine aggression it should be one suitable way to go against a gasless expand.
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On January 04 2012 03:15 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 22:40 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono. I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical. Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe.
Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[
edit:
Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks.
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Canada76 Posts
Once you get the robo and 3 gates up when do you start adding forge/forge's, take a third, and a templar archives (can you do templar archives on 2 base?). I hear that taking a third in PVT is extremely situational but how so?
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Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 06 2012 16:14 deadmau wrote:
Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide.
It's mostly grammar and spelling, etc... With all my guides, if I add something big, I'll post something in the thread about it.
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On January 06 2012 16:19 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 16:14 deadmau wrote:
Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide. It's mostly grammar and spelling, etc... With all my guides, if I add something big, I'll post something in the thread about it.
Cool thanks, i follow your guides a lot, and when i see edit, im not sure if it's because of a metagame shift, or what, thanks for the clarification. Also if you do make a big/important edit, a Change Log in "Spoiler" would be even better, as this thread could get very large and will be hard to find the edits scattered all over.
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On January 05 2012 19:26 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 03:15 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 22:40 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono. I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical. Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans. haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe. Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[ edit: Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks.
I don't like to delay warpgate too much because vs a gasless expand having those quick 5 stalkers is nice to get map control and are very nice to pick units off with (5 stalkers 1 shot marines and 2 shot marauders). 5 Stalkers is a big enough army where the Terran has to "show his hand" so to speak with his own army which is pretty crucial. I personally cut probes at 20 for the Nexus and again @ 24 for the 2 gates. The cut @ 24 isn't that bad at all, and I time it with 4 chronos on warpgate to get my first warpin ~6mins. Also a 3-Rax SCV all-in pushes out ~5:00 or so, which I believe may be possible to defend with the faster warp-gate timing and good micro (not sure I haven't faced it yet w/ this build).
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Canada13412 Posts
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
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Canada13412 Posts
On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
I think I need to play some practice games and work out some kinks. I have slowly started to survive longer against 3 rax but I think after the weekend if I'm still having issues ill get some replays together and post them.
I just wanted to know what general approach to take to help me guide my practice more effectively. Thanks monk 
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awesome write-up! i've been wanting to start learning 1G FE. Thanks!
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On January 06 2012 19:18 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 19:26 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 04 2012 03:15 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 22:40 Forbidden17 wrote:On January 03 2012 18:20 Skyro wrote:On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote:
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push. Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient. Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal. My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is. I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono. I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical. Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans. haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe. Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[ edit: Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks. I don't like to delay warpgate too much because vs a gasless expand having those quick 5 stalkers is nice to get map control and are very nice to pick units off with (5 stalkers 1 shot marines and 2 shot marauders). 5 Stalkers is a big enough army where the Terran has to "show his hand" so to speak with his own army which is pretty crucial. I personally cut probes at 20 for the Nexus and again @ 24 for the 2 gates. The cut @ 24 isn't that bad at all, and I time it with 4 chronos on warpgate to get my first warpin ~6mins. Also a 3-Rax SCV all-in pushes out ~5:00 or so, which I believe may be possible to defend with the faster warp-gate timing and good micro (not sure I haven't faced it yet w/ this build).
Everyone has their own go-to 1gate FE style. I take map control just fine with one stalker when I scout gassless fe. The only timing before my obs gets to his base is a 4rax marine push, which admittedly can be hard to deal with if you don't use chronos on your core. Easy hold on antiga/shakuras though. I just don't really see the need to force the terran to 'show his hand' in the timing before an obs gets to his base.
Your build would have an easier time vs a 4rax, and you wouldn't be dead as shit vs marine-scv all in. It's only inferior vs standard macro play, but not by much of course.
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On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax
And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement.
You didn't really follow the build order.
You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes.
Way too many probes.
Too many assimilators.
Not enough units.
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On January 08 2012 16:27 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts? Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
So, when should I cut probes then?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:03 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 16:27 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts? Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units. So, when should I cut probes then?
35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
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EPT
