The following is MC’s version of the classic 1 gate fast expand. He uses it widely in his PvT macro games and transitions into a variety of strategies after. Various koreans have also done very slight variations of the build. This build, I believe, is THE safest, most solid variation of the 1 gate expansion. By cutting a few probes, skipping early sentries, and getting a fast robo combined with good reads, you will be able to effectively stop anything your opponent can throw at you. In addition to a 1 gate FE guide, this guide will serve as a mini early game PvT guide.
When to do this build: This build is the safest version of 1 gate fe and thus can be done on any map. (Calm before the storm is a stretch though.) It’s also not the best build versus no gas 1 rax fe. Thus, if you can scout that your opponent got no gas, then I would recommend a different build. The build shines on a map like xelnaga caverns where aggressive builds like 1-1-1 and 2 rax dominate.
Mandatory scouting poke versus gas builds This is one of the most important parts of the build and another one of many safety measures incorporated in the build. The fact is that with any 1 gate expansion build, you will need some kind of early game scouting to know whether to prepare for either bio pressure or later tech. The following is my particular favorite way to scout. Note that although MC has done this before, he doesn’t do so in all of his games, but he always scouts in one way or another.
Push out with your first zealot/stalker towards your opponent’s base. At the same time, make sure you have vision between your units and his base with your initial scouting probe. This makes sure your main units will not get caught offguard. Now, poke up his ramp, leading with your probe. If you spot a marauder shot, a bunker, a large handful of marines, or his reactor timing on his barracks, do not continue with your units. If you only see 1-3 marines, however, use your zealot/stalker to attack up his ramp, either doing a lot of damage or forcing him to show you his units. The rest of your build will depend on what you see.
Scenario 1: Marauder
75% 1 rax tech lab fe, either marauder/reaper first
30 Gateway 30 Gateway 30 Robo 30 Gas *Resume probe production and chronoboost probes 31 Pylon 2 observers out of robo
I won't go into detail about how to stop each of these possibilities, but there are 3 I want to highlight.
Marine/hellion/medivac drop: If you do not have ~5 stalkers in proper positions by the time this hits, you will be in a lot of trouble.
Marine tank push: This push hits at about 7:20 and cannot be scouted in time with an observer. Thus, you must have a probe/stalker outside of the Terran's base in case he moves out with marine tank. If you see this push coming, immediately cancel your 2nd observer for an immortal and chornoboost both your robo and your gateways, making nothing but immortals, zealots, and up to 2 sentries. Even with an exact response, this can be hard to hold.
Marine/Tank/banshee allin: Refer to this for more info on how to stop this popular push.
FAQs Why such a fast robo? This is the fastest robo in any 1 gate expand into 3 gate robo build I’ve ever seen. The reason for the fast robo is safety. Timing-wise, your 2nd observer will be popping out at around the same time as the first cloaked banshee comes to your base. However, more importantly, the faster your first observer gets to your opponent’s base, the faster you can know if he’s 1 basing you or has expanded. This scouting information is invaluable, as it tells you whether you should cut probes to optimally defend an allin or chorno probes to gain economy versus a expansion build.
Why stalker as your 3rd unit? A 2nd stalker early allows for early game map control. The zealot/stalker/stalker combination will beat any unit combination the Terran can muster at the timing when the 2nd stalker comes out. The best army the terran can have at this point is marine/marauder/marauder, so if the terran overextends with a 1 rax tech lab or 2 rax tech lab/naked pressure, you will crush it. The 2 stalkers can also easily kite marines if your opponent is doing some type of marine allin or if he’s overtending with marine in a standard 2 rax. Finally, in general, the 2nd stalker just allows for much easier defense against any bio pressures.
Why no early game sentry? The reasons for this are 2 fold. First, an early sentry from a 1 gate 1 gas expand is quite useless versus any early bio pressure. Secondly, if you skip an early sentry, you can get a robo out much earlier than most 1 gate expansion builds, adding to the safety of the build as explained above.
Why always 3 gate robo and not 1 gate robo sometimes? Even assuming you somehow scout a factory in your opponent’s base, it is not safe to go 1 gate robo. Popular builds including reactor hellion openings and the 3 hellion/7 marine/1 medivac drop will decimate anyone who attempts to skimp on early gateways.
Shows MC’s execution versus 1-1-1. Even though he eventually loses in this game, it is not because he couldn’t hold the inital 1-1-1 push. In this replay, you can see the general outline of how to stop the 1-1-1. He does it almost perfectly, but here are some things you can improve on to stop the 1-1-1.: No 3rd gas Faster 4th and 5th gates Cut probes earlier, probably around 36 instead of 38 Try to flank with a few zealots/an immortal
Shows MC’s execution versus the standard 2 rax. MC has one less stalker than is possible during the first push as his scouting poke is later than I recommend. However, with his probe poke, he sees mass marines, signaling either 2 rax or a reactor expand. Notice how even though MC confirms 2 rax, he still goes for an early robo as soon as possible. This is very useful as he scouts MVP’s 1 base play early and prepares accordingly for the allin.
Note: This guide isn't as complete as I would like it to be, but I got bored for now. Perhaps I'll update it more later. Also, I'm out of ideas for another guide so I'll take some suggestions.
This is an excellent build that I myself have been doing a lot on the korean server. The advantage of getting a fast robo is so great and I'm never caught offguard by any sort of terran fast tech. This is pretty much optimal for dealing with a 1-1-1 and you can very easily transition into the new CreatorPrime style that was recently released. Definitely worth looking at.
I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
I believe HuK himself said his 20 food nexus had some flaws against 2 rax reactor first, that's what he said at least.
On really big maps I like to do the Axslav style Nexus first. Against gas you go pylon nexus gateway pylon gateway gas core and chrono out your first few zealots whilst getting a second gas then chronoing stalkers to hold any sort of fast 2 rax rush, and if you scout no gas you can just go 1 gate chronoboosting out of it then dropping 2 more gates some time after your core is up. On something like cross positions Shattered/Meta, TDA, cross Antiga and Shakuras it's amazingly safe against anything but scv allins.
On December 13 2011 11:02 Tazerenix wrote: Spelling mistake in first line btw.
This is an excellent build that I myself have been doing a lot on the korean server. The advantage of getting a fast robo is so great and I'm never caught offguard by any sort of terran fast tech. This is pretty much optimal for dealing with a 1-1-1 and you can very easily transition into the new CreatorPrime style that was recently released. Definitely worth looking at.
Don't see it.
On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
Should be 13 gate, thanks. Fixed spelling mistake. Autocorrect probably changed it to Barack Obama. Tbh this, and other greedy versions of this are my personal recommendations on almost all maps. But many other fast expands are also certainly very viable.
You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
On December 13 2011 11:02 Tazerenix wrote: Spelling mistake in first line btw.
This is an excellent build that I myself have been doing a lot on the korean server. The advantage of getting a fast robo is so great and I'm never caught offguard by any sort of terran fast tech. This is pretty much optimal for dealing with a 1-1-1 and you can very easily transition into the new CreatorPrime style that was recently released. Definitely worth looking at.
On December 13 2011 11:02 Tazerenix wrote: Spelling mistake in first line btw.
This is an excellent build that I myself have been doing a lot on the korean server. The advantage of getting a fast robo is so great and I'm never caught offguard by any sort of terran fast tech. This is pretty much optimal for dealing with a 1-1-1 and you can very easily transition into the new CreatorPrime style that was recently released. Definitely worth looking at.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
You don't FE at similar times. A 1 rax gasless FE is going to get the CC very quickly, a lot faster than your nexus. Even though you get your nexus quite fast with this build, it's still going to be slower. If you scout the 1 rax CC fast enough you can drop the Nexus before your second stalker, or even before your first stalker (as I've seen SaSe do on his stream) or just scrap the FE, drop 3 gateways and perhaps proxy 2 more and go for a 5 gate allin, map dependant.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind.
If we're going to be correcting mistakes, you might as well change the "chornoboost" in the BO.
Sometimes greedy terran just plant their CC in plain view at their natural, you might want to add that you don't need a Robo at all in this case. (or if you get a lucky CC scout). Sometimes MC doesn't get his robo if he only suspects a gasless FE.
An idea for a next guide would be : how do you gateway first against Zerg anymore ? The classic 3 gate sentry expand is useless and all the current guides are FFE openings. Would be great if you could write something about good ways to play with gateway first in PvZ.
this build that mc started using a while back was actually pretty ahead of its time. i thought a lot of his 30 gate 30 gate 30 robo 30 pylon plays were kind of erring on the safe side, but now that T's are really abusing the lack of scouting and opting for more hellion drop / marine + 2 tank pushes, this build still holds its weight.
On December 13 2011 11:17 Geiko wrote: If we're going to be correcting mistakes, you might as well change the "chornoboost" in the BO.
Sometimes greedy terran just plant their CC in plain view at their natural, you might want to add that you don't need a Robo at all in this case. (or if you get a lucky CC scout). Sometimes MC doesn't get his robo if he only suspects a gasless FE.
I noticed i have "chronoboost" in my guide about 10 times and pretty much 5 of them were spelled "chornoboost". This guide is mainly gears for versus gas builds and if you notice the structure, there's no real logical place to put that tip. Plus, you can still get a robo versus no gas, but it's not necessary.
On December 13 2011 11:17 Geiko wrote: An idea for a next guide would be : how do you gateway first against Zerg anymore ? The classic 3 gate sentry expand is useless and all the current guides are FFE openings. Would be great if you could write something about good ways to play with gateway first in PvZ.
YES PLEASE
I hate going gateway first against zerg anymore, it feels so uneconomical and my sentry pushes are easily shutdown by 2 crawlers and a hand full of lings.
I wouldn't say the 3 gate sentry expand is completely useless, but most of the time I'll be 1 gate FEing, walling off ramp to nexus with me 2nd and 3rd gateways. Perhaps 2 gate stargate play is the future of gateway first openings against zerg?
Thanks for the guide. Personally, I've been using this build for quite awhile now and it's very safe. The only times i abandon the build is if he goes for a 1 rax gasless FE in which I get my nexus @ 24/25 food before the 3rd pylon and delay my robo. Also, MC vs PuMa happened during IEM Cologne and not Dreamhack.
On December 13 2011 11:17 Geiko wrote: An idea for a next guide would be : how do you gateway first against Zerg anymore ? The classic 3 gate sentry expand is useless and all the current guides are FFE openings. Would be great if you could write something about good ways to play with gateway first in PvZ.
YES PLEASE
I hate going gateway first against zerg anymore, it feels so uneconomical and my sentry pushes are easily shutdown by 2 crawlers and a hand full of lings.
I wouldn't say the 3 gate sentry expand is completely useless, but most of the time I'll be 1 gate FEing, walling off ramp to nexus with me 2nd and 3rd gateways. Perhaps 2 gate stargate play is the future of gateway first openings against zerg?
I personally almost always FFE versus zergs these days, so I'm probably not very qualified to write such a guide.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
You don't FE at similar times. A 1 rax gasless FE is going to get the CC very quickly, a lot faster than your nexus. Even though you get your nexus quite fast with this build, it's still going to be slower. If you scout the 1 rax CC fast enough you can drop the Nexus before your second stalker, or even before your first stalker (as I've seen SaSe do on his stream) or just scrap the FE, drop 3 gateways and perhaps proxy 2 more and go for a 5 gate allin, map dependant.
Yeah after I posted this I realized that getting nexus at 30 is a fair bit later then 1 rax gasless fe . So dropping nexus before first stalker is safe vs 1 rax gasless fe? Feels greedy to me. I guess it depends on whats going on in the game though, what you scout.
On December 13 2011 11:17 Geiko wrote: An idea for a next guide would be : how do you gateway first against Zerg anymore ? The classic 3 gate sentry expand is useless and all the current guides are FFE openings. Would be great if you could write something about good ways to play with gateway first in PvZ.
YES PLEASE
I hate going gateway first against zerg anymore, it feels so uneconomical and my sentry pushes are easily shutdown by 2 crawlers and a hand full of lings.
I wouldn't say the 3 gate sentry expand is completely useless, but most of the time I'll be 1 gate FEing, walling off ramp to nexus with me 2nd and 3rd gateways. Perhaps 2 gate stargate play is the future of gateway first openings against zerg?
I personally almost always FFE versus zergs these days, so I'm probably not very qualified to write such a guide.
I guess. I basically FFE on every map except left spawn on Meta and on Shattered, where I 1 gate FE (I veto'd XNC).
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
You don't FE at similar times. A 1 rax gasless FE is going to get the CC very quickly, a lot faster than your nexus. Even though you get your nexus quite fast with this build, it's still going to be slower. If you scout the 1 rax CC fast enough you can drop the Nexus before your second stalker, or even before your first stalker (as I've seen SaSe do on his stream) or just scrap the FE, drop 3 gateways and perhaps proxy 2 more and go for a 5 gate allin, map dependant.
Yeah after I posted this I realized that getting nexus at 30 is a fair bit later then 1 rax gasless fe . So dropping nexus before first stalker is safe vs 1 rax gasless fe? Feels greedy to me. I guess it depends on whats going on in the game though, what you scout.
I think dropping before first stalker is pretty risky, It is safe if you actually see the command centre, but I wouldn't be going nexus before stalker if I didn't see the CC as I don't know if he could be 2 rax or 3 rax scv allining me.
I've been doing pretty much this exact build for a long time, I thought it was standard?
Also: When I do this build I make sure to save my initial scouting probe and do a re-scout at 4:00. If he has more than 1 marine, he did not get an initial add-on to his rax after the first marine, meaning you can rule out early marauder pressures or builds such as the reactor first 2 rax. With this information, I always make a second stalker. However, if I scout only 1 marine and can't get by it to scout further in the base, I make my third unit a sentry, just to be safe.
When it comes down to it, I think what really makes the 1 gate FE work is ruling out what the terran can do based on good scouting.
Love it. This is mostly what I do but I skip the zealot and 2nd stalker in favour of a faster nexus if I scout no gas. IMO it's also worth bringing a probe with your initial poke as you can send it up the ramp first which makes the early pressure & scout effectively risk free. You can also pop down a proxy-pylon if you scout something wonky and follow up with a delayed 4-5 gate (it'd have to be something extremely shoddy).
This seems eerily similar to kcxd's 1-gate expo, btw.
So the Immortal will always be reactive? Makes sense, considering it's pretty expensive for a "just in case" sort of item. Why not get a Nexus before the 2nd Stalker? Also, when should you make your Sentries if you see the 2 Rax coming? ASAP after WG, or are Zealot/Stalkers with an Immortal enough to hold?
On December 13 2011 11:59 Supah wrote: So the Immortal will always be reactive? Makes sense, considering it's pretty expensive for a "just in case" sort of item. Why not get a Nexus before the 2nd Stalker? Also, when should you make your Sentries if you see the 2 Rax coming? ASAP after WG, or are Zealot/Stalkers with an Immortal enough to hold?
Holding a standard 2 marauder 7 marine 2 rax can be done without any sentries, i've held it with 3 zealots and 2 stalkers.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind.
Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind.
Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in.
You could just scrap the FE plans and 5gate allin them and win if you hide the majority of your units and perhaps hide your 2 extra gateways.
For a next guide, I'd like to see something about PvP Phoenix play. There is a ton of info already in a couple of other [D] threads but they are not complete and are somewhat contradictory (understandably so since there is more than one phoenix style).
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
You don't FE at similar times. A 1 rax gasless FE is going to get the CC very quickly, a lot faster than your nexus. Even though you get your nexus quite fast with this build, it's still going to be slower. If you scout the 1 rax CC fast enough you can drop the Nexus before your second stalker, or even before your first stalker (as I've seen SaSe do on his stream) or just scrap the FE, drop 3 gateways and perhaps proxy 2 more and go for a 5 gate allin, map dependant.
Yeah after I posted this I realized that getting nexus at 30 is a fair bit later then 1 rax gasless fe . So dropping nexus before first stalker is safe vs 1 rax gasless fe? Feels greedy to me. I guess it depends on whats going on in the game though, what you scout.
I think dropping before first stalker is pretty risky, It is safe if you actually see the command centre, but I wouldn't be going nexus before stalker if I didn't see the CC as I don't know if he could be 2 rax or 3 rax scv allining me.
On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
I do like this build against gas Terran builds, but the probe cut can be lengthy if you don't have enough scouting. I've also felt like this build does poorly against the 1-1-1 all in out of most 1-gate FEs, because it gets the nexus down at 30 and it's only just kicking in when the attack hits (the earliest variations of it). Still I think it's a very safe all-around build that can be used in a lot of situations, although it gets a fairly late nexus compared to almost any Terran FE (1 rax, gas or no gas). It's only a solid opening against a 2 rax or a tech opening (imo).
He also has a very, very indepth guide on Robo Blink Pvp, which is arguably the golden standard in Pvp right now. It is fairly effective vs all builds, unlike the immortal expand which is a bit more polarized in what it is good against and what it is terrible against.
Can you elaborate on why you do the reactions that you do based on what you scout with the poke? Im quite confused on the reasons why. I can only guess as to why the building order is the placement it is
For example, why, if your opponent is going for a 1 rax FE with 1 marauder do you get your two gateways down so early? Why not an earlier gas/robo?
Why is a delayed reactor/building bunker a sign of a tech build? Is it because they don't need a reactor out early as they would only use it for another building? Or is it because they don't have the economy to support it yet while they are teching up and it would mess up the build? Why is the bunker of any significance? Is it just a precaution terran players get while they are teching up and that is the first timing at which a push can come that would hurt them and they now have the resources for it?
I just don't understand why you get your buildings in the order you do based on the buildings
Also, if your opponent didn't wall off do you think you should bring a probe along with your zlot/ stalker poke and slip it in and suicide the probe to get additional scouting information?
I personally use 2 Gate Robo all the time because its so safe in getting that early observer, with not too much cost to economy unless its against gasless expands.
In terms of guides, I would like to see a similar guide to doing FFE openers verses zerg (maybe like a compilation similar to your PvP anti-4gate build thread). Alej already has a great guide on this that covers a broad game plan up until mid/late game. But given there are so many variations of FFE and follow-ups, would be great to see your detailed analysis of it too.
On December 13 2011 14:02 bankai wrote: Excellent guide once again Monk!
I personally use 2 Gate Robo all the time because its so safe in getting that early observer, with not too much cost to economy unless its against gasless expands.
In terms of guides, I would like to see a similar guide to doing FFE openers verses zerg (maybe like a compilation similar to your PvP anti-4gate build thread). Alej already has a great guide on this that covers a broad game plan up until mid/late game. But given there are so many variations of FFE and follow-ups, would be great to see your detailed analysis of it too.
Wow, combine this with your CreatorPrime PvT thread and you have the most magnificent PvT guide imaginable, thank you so much.
Also, thanks for explaining the superiority of the second stalker over the sentry, I never understood which was better and why.
A couple of questions though, this does transition most often into the CreatorPrime style, right? Or at least it is safe and logical to? Also, will you include more replays? Those are good but it would help to see every adaptation. And you mention that this is bad against 1 rax gasless FE, what would you advise against that, Huk's 20 food FE? Seems like you could switch to that even if you scout him last and be pretty stable.
On December 13 2011 14:02 bankai wrote: Excellent guide once again Monk!
I personally use 2 Gate Robo all the time because its so safe in getting that early observer, with not too much cost to economy unless its against gasless expands.
In terms of guides, I would like to see a similar guide to doing FFE openers verses zerg (maybe like a compilation similar to your PvP anti-4gate build thread). Alej already has a great guide on this that covers a broad game plan up until mid/late game. But given there are so many variations of FFE and follow-ups, would be great to see your detailed analysis of it too.
[*]Marine tank push: This push hits at about 7:20 and cannot be scouted in time with an observer. Thus, you must have a probe/stalker outside of the Terran's base in case he moves out with marine tank. If you see this push coming, immediately cancel your 2nd observer for an immortal and chornoboost both your robo and your gateways, making nothing but immortals, zealots, and up to 2 sentries. Even with an exact response, this can be hard to hold.
If I still played Terran I would be VERY sad that you posted that part. That build was such a good way to farm wins (2 rax 1 fac marine tank).
I'm not sure how safe this build is against a Marine/SCV all-in. Without an early Sentry, you'll be in a lot of trouble if an SCV train and a bunch of Marines walks into your base. Otherwise this builds appears safe vs the variety of early Terran attacks.
On December 13 2011 14:26 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm not sure how safe this build is against a Marine/SCV all-in. Without an early Sentry, you'll be in a lot of trouble if an SCV train and a bunch of Marines walks into your base. Otherwise this builds appears safe vs the variety of early Terran attacks.
Well obviously it won't survive a marine scv train, barely any fast expand builds do in their purest form. You'd have to immediately cancel the nexus, drop extra gateways and chronoboost a sentry out if you saw a marine scv allin coming.
On December 13 2011 14:30 vince1234 wrote: how do you deal with reaper rush or reaper expand using this build?
A reaper expand produces a single reaper for scouting purposes that goes into your main base. Just shoot it with your stalker. What do you mean by reaper rush? I've never seen an effective one. I guess you could just continue to chronoboost stalkers out of one gateway whilst expanding and hold it off unless it was some sort of 5 rax reaper without speed where a more drastic response would be needed.
You mention this build isnt good against Gasless FE, or not being able to scout. What would you recommend doing if we cant scout. Obviously your easy answer will be another build, but im curious how to tell certain things. For example, i lose my scouting probe outside his base which doesnt tell me much so i poke with zealot, stalker stalker as you suggest. I see about 4 or 5 marines at the top of his ramp and no bunker, using your build i assumed 2rax or whatever, but it was actually gasless FE into 5Rax marine aggression. My micro was not prime, but he just walked right over me and ended the game there. Basically my question is, is it autoloss to do this build without scouting 100% correctly, or should i just be more flexible with my builds and be ready to change it up at any moment. i can provide replay if needed but why i lost isnt really the issue
This is a great build which can be adjusted to hold basically any early attack. Let's just hope terrans don't read this guide and start going marine-tank-scv every game. Thus far I have been unable to hold that particular push, but I think there are further tweaks which can aid against it. Specifically, against non-FE terrans, it might be wise to sacrifice a couple probes after warpgates get up and pump units at every WG cooldown until the observer gets into his base. I haven't had a chance to test this stuff though, since 99% of GM-level terrans on NA fast expand.
On the subject of scouting pokes, I'll share a trick I picked up from Oz. If the terran has a bunker at his natural, you can lead with your 2 stalkers to let them absorb the first few hits, and then run by the bunker with your zealot. At the very least you will always be able to confirm whether he finished his CC or is planning an all-in. In more fortunate circumstances you can get into his main and see exactly what is going on. Overall I consider it a fine use of 100 minerals and it has saved me from 4 rax more than once.
Good guide. This is pretty much my original PvT 1 gate FE that I posted a couple weeks after release, and it's still strong today. It's very safe and lets you move around the map in the early game without much fear. The problem with the build that eventually led to me moving away from it is that it's not economically greedy enough to put you ahead against Terran FE builds. It's well behind gasless expand, and I'd say it's slightly behind 1-rax marauder and reaper expands. It's roughly even or maybe slightly ahead of 2-rax expand.
I prefer to be greedier, but for beginners who want a solid, safe build that will easily defend any early pressure, or for elite level players that just want to guarantee making it to mid-game on roughly even terms where their superior play can shine through, this is a good way to go.
I will say that I disagree with this part:
The reasons for this are 2 fold. First, an early sentry from a 1 gate 1 gas expand is quite useless versus any early bio pressure. Secondly, if you skip an early sentry, you can get a robo out much earlier than most 1 gate expansion builds, adding to the safety of the build as explained above.
While I understand why this build doesn't get a sentry, an early sentry can actually be quite good for other 1 gate 1 gas expands. You can get a guardian shield in time for the reactor 2-rax which basically doubles the survivability of your units against that push. And if you get fewer stalkers, the sentry doesn't delay your robo. Again, it makes sense for this build not to get a sentry, but I don't think those reasons apply to all 1 gate FE builds.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind.
Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in.
I personally either gateway no core expand or skip the zealot in this expand.
On December 13 2011 11:13 OxyFuel wrote: You outdo yourself with every guide! Thank you so much for this. Question though. Why is this not good vs 1 rax gasless fe. If Terran gasless fe's all they have his marines for a while and they are pretty defensive. Since you are both FE at a similar time shouldn't it be fairly even?
Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind.
Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in.
You could just scrap the FE plans and 5gate allin them and win if you hide the majority of your units and perhaps hide your 2 extra gateways.
Er I guess you could. I have to warn you that 5 gate allin is worse vs gasless expand than vs tech lab expand.
On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
I do like this build against gas Terran builds, but the probe cut can be lengthy if you don't have enough scouting. I've also felt like this build does poorly against the 1-1-1 all in out of most 1-gate FEs, because it gets the nexus down at 30 and it's only just kicking in when the attack hits (the earliest variations of it). Still I think it's a very safe all-around build that can be used in a lot of situations, although it gets a fairly late nexus compared to almost any Terran FE (1 rax, gas or no gas). It's only a solid opening against a 2 rax or a tech opening (imo).
Yes, it's a bit weaker versus the standard 1-1-1 allin if you assume that's coming. However, because of the faster robo, it is stronger against all the non-standard 1-1-1 allins, which are the by far the harder ones to hold. If anything, this build is the weakest vs standard macro play in comparison to other 1 gate FE.
Can you elaborate on why you do the reactions that you do based on what you scout with the poke? Im quite confused on the reasons why. I can only guess as to why the building order is the placement it is
For example, why, if your opponent is going for a 1 rax FE with 1 marauder do you get your two gateways down so early? Why not an earlier gas/robo?
A 2 rax with techlab/naked can do a lot of damage if you don't have those extra gates.
Why is a delayed reactor/building bunker a sign of a tech build? Is it because they don't need a reactor out early as they would only use it for another building? Or is it because they don't have the economy to support it yet while they are teching up and it would mess up the build? Why is the bunker of any significance? Is it just a precaution terran players get while they are teching up and that is the first timing at which a push can come that would hurt them and they now have the resources for it?
I just don't understand why you get your buildings in the order you do based on the buildings
With a tech build, your get a factory with your first 100 gas and a reactor with your 2nd 50 gas. During that time, you can make 3 marines. Also, all builds that don't involve a marauder require a bunker to be perfectly safe from pokes. In comparison, a 2 rax with reactor/tech lab gets a reactor with the first 50 gas and has enough units and a marauder to not warrant a bunker.
Also, if your opponent didn't wall off do you think you should bring a probe along with your zlot/ stalker poke and slip it in and suicide the probe to get additional scouting information?
Wow, combine this with your CreatorPrime PvT thread and you have the most magnificent PvT guide imaginable, thank you so much.
Also, thanks for explaining the superiority of the second stalker over the sentry, I never understood which was better and why.
A couple of questions though, this does transition most often into the CreatorPrime style, right? Or at least it is safe and logical to? Also, will you include more replays? Those are good but it would help to see every adaptation. And you mention that this is bad against 1 rax gasless FE, what would you advise against that, Huk's 20 food FE? Seems like you could switch to that even if you scout him last and be pretty stable.
Great guide
Yes, it transitions perfectly int the CreatorPrime build. Maybe I'll add replays. We'll see. I answered the 1 rax gasless FE question up above. I don't have enough experience with Huk's FE to comment on that.
I'm not sure how safe this build is against a Marine/SCV all-in. Without an early Sentry, you'll be in a lot of trouble if an SCV train and a bunch of Marines walks into your base. Otherwise this builds appears safe vs the variety of early Terran attacks.
You're better off vs a marine scv allin with a stalker rather than a sentry. With 2 stalkers, you can kite marines much more easily than with 1.
You mention this build isnt good against Gasless FE, or not being able to scout. What would you recommend doing if we cant scout. Obviously your easy answer will be another build, but im curious how to tell certain things. For example, i lose my scouting probe outside his base which doesnt tell me much so i poke with zealot, stalker stalker as you suggest. I see about 4 or 5 marines at the top of his ramp and no bunker, using your build i assumed 2rax or whatever, but it was actually gasless FE into 5Rax marine aggression. My micro was not prime, but he just walked right over me and ended the game there. Basically my question is, is it autoloss to do this build without scouting 100% correctly, or should i just be more flexible with my builds and be ready to change it up at any moment. i can provide replay if needed but why i lost isnt really the issue
Scout earlier if you're depending on knowing if he has gas or not. My reactions are completely based on the fact you scout your opponent got gas. There's a whole set of other possibilities if there's no gas, which you probably failed to account for just based on this guide.
It's a great stable build but as you said not optimal vs greedy builds and can have some trouble with some hellion builds.
Scout Fast Reactor If you are ever allowed to scout 1 marine into a reactor I think you should cancel your zealot and transition into:
20 nexus
stalker
22 gate
22 gate
With all chrono after the 3 you already spent on probes going to warpgate tech. It comes out better against a reactor-cc than 30 nexus and crushes reactor first 2 rax.
Reactor-Techlab 2rax If you go with the 30 nexus you'll plant it right before you poke the ramp. If your poke shows you the signs of a 2rax 1-2 marauder 7-9 marine push is coming I prefer to delay the robo get and instead get a chronoboosted sentry followed by a chronoboosted stalker after adding my 2 gates. i.e.
I think that's that correct pylon timing I'll double check when I get home
32 stalker *chrono*
@ 100% warp-gate: 3 stalkers
The early form of the attack will start about when your 3rd stalker finishes hold back and wait for your warp-ins. You will push him back with 1 zealot 6 stalkers and a guardian shield before the bunkers complete. The guardian shield is amazing against marine heavy early pushes. Stop the bunkers and focus the marauders with your stalkers first as they do bonus damage to the maruaders and the marines do minimal damage while guardian shield is up and can be kited against as soon as the marauders are dead.
Is that supposed to be: - a 3rd stalker followed by 2gates on 32 then a 4th stalker - 2gates on 30 followed by a 3rd and 4th stalker
If the former do your gates line up with wargpate finishing? Seems like they wouldn't and that your warp-ins would finish after bunkers complete on a 1 marauder timing if you didn't engage to stop them.
If anyone has any experience in favor of or opposed to these options it'd be nice to hear.
Hmm, alright. Then why do you get the faster 3rd stalker if you scout the fast possibility of a reactor/tech lab but get faster gates against the possibility of a tech lab naked? Wouldn't a 2 rax techlab naked hit earlier before warpgate and thus you would want the faster stalker? And also wouldn't 2 rax reactor first hit later with more units and thus you would want to invest earlier in two gateways because you should have WG research finished by the time the attack hits?
Any replays of holding solid marine/tank all-ins? They usually leave the base around 6:30-6:40 with 2 tanks/20~ marines and I've never seen a 1gate expand hold it in tournament games I've seen :/
It's a great stable build but as you said not optimal vs greedy builds and can have some trouble with some hellion builds.
Scout Fast Reactor If you are ever allowed to scout 1 marine into a reactor I think you should cancel your zealot and transition into:
20 nexus
stalker
22 gate
22 gate
With all chrono after the 3 you already spent on probes going to warpgate tech. It comes out better against a reactor-cc than 30 nexus and crushes reactor first 2 rax.
Reactor-Techlab 2rax If you go with the 30 nexus you'll plant it right before you poke the ramp. If your poke shows you the signs of a 2rax 1-2 marauder 7-9 marine push is coming I prefer to delay the robo get and instead get a chronoboosted sentry followed by a chronoboosted stalker after adding my 2 gates. i.e.
I think that's that correct pylon timing I'll double check when I get home
32 stalker *chrono*
@ 100% warp-gate: 3 stalkers
The early form of the attack will start about when your 3rd stalker finishes hold back and wait for your warp-ins. You will push him back with 1 zealot 6 stalkers and a guardian shield before the bunkers complete. The guardian shield is amazing against marine heavy early pushes. Stop the bunkers and focus the marauders with your stalkers first as they do bonus damage to the maruaders and the marines do minimal damage while guardian shield is up and can be kited against as soon as the marauders are dead.
Is that supposed to be: - a 3rd stalker followed by 2gates on 32 then a 4th stalker - 2gates on 30 followed by a 3rd and 4th stalker
If the former do your gates line up with wargpate finishing? Seems like they wouldn't and that your warp-ins would finish after bunkers complete on a 1 marauder timing if you didn't engage to stop them.
If anyone has any experience in favor of or opposed to these options it'd be nice to hear.
It's the first option. The 2nd gateway lines up with wgs while the 3rd gateway finishes a few seconds later. The beauty of this build is that no matter when the terran hits your natural. The 2nd option is not that different at all and is perfectly fine as well.
Hmm, alright. Then why do you get the faster 3rd stalker if you scout the fast possibility of a reactor/tech lab but get faster gates against the possibility of a tech lab naked? Wouldn't a 2 rax techlab naked hit earlier before warpgate and thus you would want the faster stalker? And also wouldn't 2 rax reactor first hit later with more units and thus you would want to invest earlier in two gateways because you should have WG research finished by the time the attack hits?
This is a good catch. To be honest, either option (faster stalker + extra stalker or just 1 stalker) can hold either type of 2 rax. The faster stalker version just holds both more convincingly while the 1 stalker version allows to start probes sooner. With my suggestions, I'm kinda playing the odds a bit. 2 rax is much more common if you scout reactor first than if you scout tech lab first, as you can see by my estimated odds.
I think it's a pretty crappy version of the 1 gate FE. here are a lot of inefficiencies in it that can be tweaked out and I think you can be greedier on most maps as well (skipping zealot is safe on many maps). First of all, when doing a 1 gate FE it generally doesn't make any sense to spend 3 chrono's on the nexus, the thing is that 3rd chrono will barely net you any extra minerals early because you're saturated quite fast. In fact the 3rd chrono on nexus means you have spend 50 minerals 10s earlier compared to a 2chrono on nexus build which means you expand later as well. There is really no point spending that chrono only to have a probe cut later... Instead use an extra chrono on warpgate tech and be safer, thus able to expand faster instead... It's better in every way. The golden rule I use is 2 chrono's on nex for 1 gas builds, 3 chrono on nex for 2 gas builds because the additional value of extra chrono drops hard unless you expand super fast...
I also don't like chronoing the first gate twice like that, the first stalker will hardly pop any faster because of it and I don't think it's vital at all to have the second stalker pop out that quick. What's the point anyway if you are not going to make a 3rd stalker before warpgate finishes? It's a mere waste of chrono imo only to get that second stalker a little faster which is hardly neccesary.. Finally boosting that nexus that late in the game when you're already making a robo is hardly neccesary, i'd rather save a few chrono's for my first 2 observers...
TL;DR this build has pretty bad use of chronoboost and unneccesary inefficiency
On December 13 2011 16:30 Markwerf wrote: I think it's a pretty crappy version of the 1 gate FE. here are a lot of inefficiencies in it that can be tweaked out and I think you can be greedier on most maps as well (skipping zealot is safe on many maps). First of all, when doing a 1 gate FE it generally doesn't make any sense to spend 3 chrono's on the nexus, the thing is that 3rd chrono will barely net you any extra minerals early because you're saturated quite fast. In fact the 3rd chrono on nexus means you have spend 50 minerals 10s earlier compared to a 2chrono on nexus build which means you expand later as well. There is really no point spending that chrono only to have a probe cut later... Instead use an extra chrono on warpgate tech and be safer, thus able to expand faster instead... It's better in every way. The golden rule I use is 2 chrono's on nex for 1 gas builds, 3 chrono on nex for 2 gas builds because the additional value of extra chrono drops hard unless you expand super fast...
I also don't like chronoing the first gate twice like that, the first stalker will hardly pop any faster because of it and I don't think it's vital at all to have the second stalker pop out that quick. What's the point anyway if you are not going to make a 3rd stalker before warpgate finishes? It's a mere waste of chrono imo only to get that second stalker a little faster which is hardly neccesary.. Finally boosting that nexus that late in the game when you're already making a robo is hardly neccesary, i'd rather save a few chrono's for my first 2 observers...
TL;DR this build has pretty bad use of chronoboost and unneccesary inefficiency
First of all, I really dislike your tone. There have also been a lot of times where your posts were questionable, but not wrong enough to warrant me correcting them. But this time you've directly attacked my guide, so here we go.
If you don't use a 3rd chornoboost on your nexus and a 2nd chronoboost on your gateway, where else are you going to use your chronoboost? This build already has it that your 2nd and 3rd gateways line up with warpgate research. Any more chrono on warpgates would be useless. In addition, a large part of holding off 2 rax pressures is having a large enough standing army so that the Terran cannot put up a bunker. This build accomplishes that while something like Huk's expand, which relies on chronoing warpgates, struggles with. So your assessment that chronoing warpgates instead of units is safer is false. Skipping zealot first with this build is definitely not safe on most maps versus gas builds. Tbh it seems to me what you're arguing is that Huk's build is just overall superior to this one. Chronoboosting probes is almost always useful. How can you say it's late in the game when I'm telling people to chronoboost their nexus at around 24 probes? Even if you do chronoboost your nexus, you'll still have plenty of energy to chronoboost your obs.
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
On December 13 2011 16:30 Markwerf wrote: I think it's a pretty crappy version of the 1 gate FE. here are a lot of inefficiencies in it that can be tweaked out and I think you can be greedier on most maps as well (skipping zealot is safe on many maps). First of all, when doing a 1 gate FE it generally doesn't make any sense to spend 3 chrono's on the nexus, the thing is that 3rd chrono will barely net you any extra minerals early because you're saturated quite fast. In fact the 3rd chrono on nexus means you have spend 50 minerals 10s earlier compared to a 2chrono on nexus build which means you expand later as well. There is really no point spending that chrono only to have a probe cut later... Instead use an extra chrono on warpgate tech and be safer, thus able to expand faster instead... It's better in every way. The golden rule I use is 2 chrono's on nex for 1 gas builds, 3 chrono on nex for 2 gas builds because the additional value of extra chrono drops hard unless you expand super fast...
I also don't like chronoing the first gate twice like that, the first stalker will hardly pop any faster because of it and I don't think it's vital at all to have the second stalker pop out that quick. What's the point anyway if you are not going to make a 3rd stalker before warpgate finishes? It's a mere waste of chrono imo only to get that second stalker a little faster which is hardly neccesary.. Finally boosting that nexus that late in the game when you're already making a robo is hardly neccesary, i'd rather save a few chrono's for my first 2 observers...
TL;DR this build has pretty bad use of chronoboost and unneccesary inefficiency
First of all, I really dislike your tone. There have also been a lot of times where your posts were questionable, but not wrong enough to warrant me correcting them. But this time you've directly attacked my guide, so here we go.
If you don't use a 3rd chornoboost on your nexus and a 2nd chronoboost on your gateway, where else are you going to use your chronoboost? This build already has it that your 2nd and 3rd gateways line up with warpgate research. Any more chrono on warpgates would be useless. In addition, a large part of holding off 2 rax pressures is having a large enough standing army so that the Terran cannot put up a bunker. This build accomplishes that while something like Huk's expand, which relies on chronoing warpgates, struggles with. So your assessment that chronoing warpgates instead of units is safer is false. Skipping zealot first with this build is definitely not safe on most maps versus gas builds. Tbh it seems to me what you're arguing is that Huk's build is just overall superior to this one. Chronoboosting probes is almost always useful. How can you say it's late in the game when I'm telling people to chronoboost their nexus at around 24 probes? Even if you do chronoboost your nexus, you'll still have plenty of energy to chronoboost your obs.
I agree with you and want to put special emphasis on the zealot - people have started to appreciate early zealots more and more, I've seen Nani use a variation of a one gate FE where he even gets two zealots first. They are not meant to do damage but to take damage and force kiting. Which makes stalkers stronger early on than they would normally be, which makes this build more safe vs a 2 rax pressure.
Furthermore, without the zealot you clearly can't zealot/stalker-poke. Again, this is rather obvious and I don't understand how Markwerk can disregard this completely. A zealot/stalker-poke is the most efficient scout you can get that early into the game, which is very useful especially for ladder-play where you never really know what crazyness you are up against.
The thing is, if you cut too many probes and scout a gas-less FE, then why not continue probe-production immediately, put all chronos on probes and oversaturate your main until the nexus is done? The disadvantage is really a small one and is only an issue if your opponent can establish his natural completely uncontested. Nevertheless with early zealot/stalker(s) and without spending money on sentries, you should be able to do "some" poking and delay his CC from flying down a bit. And force him into more bunkers than he would like to have at that point.
Overall, I'm more and more convinced that the trade-off is really worth it. The danger of dying in the early game is imo much larger than the - possible - slight disdavantage in midgame.
On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote: Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected.
On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote: Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected.
Thanks! I really feel like the 9 scout is still the best way to get a probe inside the base for the early gas timing though. Do you think that the chrono boosts being slightly misaligned is a big deal?
Also, are you saying that if I see a complete walloff, that counts as the critical second depot and that I am safe to expand?
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
Also, sleepingdog's post right before yours stresses the importance of the 18 zealot with the poke. Are you sure its a good idea to cancel that zealot in favor of a faster expo?
Then again, I recall 4monk saying at some point in his replies that if he scouts a gasless expo he cuts the zealot... but then again, isn't gasless outside the realm of this thread? I'm confused. haha
On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote: Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected.
Thanks! I really feel like the 9 scout is still the best way to get a probe inside the base for the early gas timing though. Do you think that the chrono boosts being slightly misaligned is a big deal?
Also, are you saying that if I see a complete walloff, that counts as the critical second depot and that I am safe to expand?
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
Also, sleepingdog's post right before yours stresses the importance of the 18 zealot with the poke. Are you sure its a good idea to cancel that zealot in favor of a faster expo?
Then again, I recall 4monk saying at some point in his replies that if he scouts a gasless expo he cuts the zealot... but then again, isn't gasless outside the realm of this thread? I'm confused. haha
11 Scout is the best scout timing for protoss. On any 4 player map (including large maps like TDA) if you scout on 9, you get your probe into the first two spawns but not the third (and you don't get to chronoboost before dropping the gateway and not skip probes), if you scout on 13, you can only potentially get into the first base (and you can chronoboost twice before gateway), but if you scout on 11, you will always get into the first and second base, like the 9 scout, and not the 3rd base, which you can never get into anyway, but you still get to chronoboost twice before you drop the gateway without a loss of scouting information.
I particularly like the breakdown of the scouting scenarios. I am very comfortable with a 1 gate FE, but in my scouting, I just know to look for marauders/tech lab or just marines and react to that, but I have no clue what builds these situations could represent. Now I have a much better idea. Thank you again.
@ jaeger that thread you linked assumes you take a 2nd gas early and assumes minerals only return 39 or 45 / min. This results in a gross overestimation of the mineral worth of chronoboosting probes for this specific case. If you only get 1 gas your minerals will reach saturation earlier and thus the net effect of the chronoboost will be much less. In the case of a 1 gate FE the value of the 3rd chronoboost is probably more around ~30-40 minerals. Note also that this return is calculated in that thread for probing up till full saturation without interruption, if you are forced into an idle nexus later because of using chronoboost (like is the case in the build of this thread..) then your advantage gets even less. Also note that if you chronoboost once more you will have to pay up 1 probe 10s in advance all the time, in other words you'll often have 50 mins less for a moment then a build with 1 boost less.. This means boosting less can result in a faster expansion which in turn means faster double probe production, faster maynard and earlier use of the supply of your nexus. In my opinion these advantages of getting the nexus faster AND being able to use that saved chrono on something else outweigh the 35ish minerals you gain by chronoing the nexus a 3rd time..
@Monk, i'm not attacking the guide per se just attacking MC's build.. I do think the general concept of getting a zealot and chronoing the stalker and expanding then is very useful on many maps. Of the current ladder pool i'd just say that I prefer to be a bit greedier because you are better off then if they decide not to pressure which is quite likely on maps like tal darim etc. As far as chronoboosts go I explained above why I think the 3rd chronoboost is better spent elsewhere then the nexus. Also you can say that the 2nd and 3rd gate line up nicely with warpgate finishing but that doesn't mean the build is superefficient.. First of all the first gate is idle for quite some time, you can easily sqeeze out 1 more stalker of this before warpgate finishes, which in turn lets you shave 1 gateway while having the same amount of units as the push comes. In fact you could also get the 2nd gate earlier and chronoboost warpgate 1 or 2 more times while still having it line up nicely. That way you have warpgate ready 10 to 20 secs earlier AND you have 6 units ready 10 to 20 secs earlier while using 1 less gate... To me that just sounds much more useful then having that 2nd stalker just a little bit earlier and having a somewhat unneeded 3rd gate. The saved cost of the gate could be put into faster geysers, faster forge whatever..
I'm not trying to attack you at all just commenting on the build itself in what I must admit sounded rather harsh. I did it that way though because this topic has been discussed quite a bit already in the infamous kcdc thread where similar conclusions where reached, ie you rarely need the 3rd gate if you line up the build a bit smoother.
@ sleepingdog I don't think the zealot-stalker poke has much value anymore on most maps. Many maps have a pretty large distance between bases compared to maps half a year ago making it much riskier to send over your zealot so far. Also terrans wall in much more often these days which usually means your poke won't do much, compared to what simply poking with a probe would do. Early zealot is still great against maps where bunker pressure is a great risk but on some of the bigger maps it simply isn't in my opinion. On a map like tal darim for example they can bunker but it's quite easy to intercept their units coming to the bunker even if it does complete. A finished bunker doesn't matter too much if they can only get 2 units in it, you can simply wait till 6 or so units and then kill it. Bunkering often delays their expansion too so it's not completely costless for them to do so. Anyway for anything with a smaller rush distance I do like the zealot and can only recommend a 1 gate FE similar to this with some slight tweaks in timings.
<3 great write-up on the safest PvT opening there is.
I use this opening on small maps to get an economic edge. On larger maps where Terrans tend to go for greedy openings I open 2 gate expand to put on some pressure.
On December 14 2011 03:22 KalWarkov wrote: do we need a thread for every 2 supply differ variation of 1 gate nexus? srsly, there is like no difference to a 27 / 28 nexus...
whatever, if someone finds this useful, who am i to whine about this :D
On December 14 2011 03:22 KalWarkov wrote: do we need a thread for every 2 supply differ variation of 1 gate nexus? srsly, there is like no difference to a 27 / 28 nexus...
whatever, if someone finds this useful, who am i to whine about this :D
In the PvT early game, you just die if you are missing one unit, or if your timings are a little off. Subtleties like these are what separate average range players from good players.
Try playing Protoss at a decent level before making rude comments like these please
1. So you are saying its better to get the early 3rd stalker because an early reactor indicates a higher probability of a 2 rax? So the only reason you delay the stalker if you scout tech lab first is because it is unlikely to be a 2 rax pressure build? If you could somehow determine whether they were going 2 rax pressure off of techlab first would it be better to get the 3rd stalker before gateways like how you do when you see the reactor first? TLDR: Do you want to get the 3rd stalker before 2 gates if you are sure of 2 rax pressure?
2. Also, in what situations would conc shells finish when you poke up the ramp with the zeal/stalker? This is assuming it is not an exceptionally large map like Tal'Darim. If you get slowed while poking up the ramp what does this tell you? Should you assume tech lab first 2 rax? Or would it be safe to assume a marauder expand? Is this unusual to have conc shells finished at such an early time or is in standard to have conc shells finished if they went tech lab after their first marine? TLDR: Is it normal to get hit by conc shells when poking up the ramp if they went tech lab first, if not what different information does this give you?
3. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal.
4. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers?
ha. i just went through a bunch of reps looking for two builds for each matchup: small map build and large map build. I always played safe, so I wanted them to be econ greedy. I use this build for small maps, and I use mc's 16 nex into four stalker four gate for the large maps.
If T makes a second marine, your zealot stalker poke will arrive before conc shell can finish on normal size maps assuming your build is on time and you send your stalker straight there. But you need to actually see the second marine--if he queues it up for your probe and then cancels after you leave, he can have conc shell in time to kill your units.
If you don't see a second marine, you can't know that the poke is safe, so you need to sac a probe up the ramp right before sending your zealot+stalker. The zealot+stalker will usually get the same information that your probe sac got, but sometime it will force T to bring more of his units to the ramp where you can see them.
I skip this poke with my preferred 1 gate FE because I make less units and I need to keep the units I have back to defend reapers or sneaky bunkers, but Monk is right that it can give you a lot of useful information.
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
No, 12/16 is 2 rax, the 12 one with Reactor after the first Marine, the 16 one with Lab (usually with Concussive Shells upgrade first).
idk if 12/16 is 'cheese' but if you expand behind it with constant unit production it, the cc goes down much later than a 12/17 tech lab first standard/safe 2 rax fe in tvp. if you want to know something about 12/16, watch rainbow play ladder. it's like the only effing build he does :p
when i use this 30 nex opening and see no depot or a rax on 16 pretty clearly i go into 2 gates after nexus and skip the robo for a sec to prepare for 12/16
only thing is people are opening 12/16 into whatever the hell they want right now.. banshee or hellion drop or tank push. really annoying. so you really have to poke after your initial scout is what i'm saying :p
On December 13 2011 20:47 TheDwf wrote: Nvm, wrong thread
Well, since I misposted, might as well answer to someone :
On December 13 2011 19:17 charliexjustice wrote:
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
No, 12/16 is 2 rax, the 12 one with Reactor after the first Marine, the 16 one with Lab (usually with Concussive Shells upgrade first).
idk if 12/16 is 'cheese' but if you expand behind it with constant unit production it, the cc goes down much later than a 12/17 tech lab first standard/safe 2 rax fe in tvp. if you want to know something about 12/16, watch rainbow play ladder. it's like the only effing build he does :p
oh, you don't say he has stopped doing 111 each and every TvP
when i use this 30 nex opening and see no depot or a rax on 16 pretty clearly i go into 2 gates after nexus and skip the robo for a sec to prepare for 12/16
only thing is people are opening 12/16 into whatever the hell they want right now.. banshee or hellion drop or tank push. really annoying. so you really have to poke after your initial scout is what i'm saying :p
yup, I really feel like we are spinning in a huge metagame-circle that isn't likely to stop any time soon (as it did in BW) - after nearly one and a half year you would expect AT LEAST the early game to "somewhat" stabilze...
Great guide man! I have been doing a similar 1gate expo since the first season and have gotten really good at holding off 2 raxx pressure. As of this season whenever i assume a 111 i have been doing this tactic of moving most of my units out of my natural onto the map. I have a pylon already on the map and am warping in with my main forces. Its been working really well at delaying the push for me to get enough units. Yes its kind risky if they do drops instead but ussualy i can get my obs there in time to see whats going down.
Is it advisable to push T's ramp with 6 stalkers and a zealot if you dont see a push coming within 7 minutes or so? (MC demonstrates such a 6 gate attack against the 1/1/1 in a video, albeit without a robo)
How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
Interesting thought guys. I just played this build on korea and came up against a meching terran player (I know right what the fuck). As I did the push up the ramp with 2 stalkers, a zealot and a probe I came upon a bunker with 2 marines in it and 2 hellions. Intuitively I decided to just get a fast robo but what decision would you guys make? Which build would you follow if you came upon hellions when scouting the terrans front door?
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
Against a build like that you're going to want to add on a faster 4th and 5th gate whilst delaying your robotics. Get just enough sentries for g shield plus a few blocking force fields and then a ton of zealots and stalkers.
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
The quickest version of that would be the power build off a gasless fe, and if you scout that, you go nexus first or coreless expo.
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
Against a build like that you're going to want to add on a faster 4th and 5th gate whilst delaying your robotics. Get just enough sentries for g shield plus a few blocking force fields and then a ton of zealots and stalkers.
My question still needs an answer.
What I feel lacking in your response is that you won't see past the natural bunker until obs which you need from your Robo. However, you are correct in the extra gates, which you lay down depending on obs scout. Which may or may not be functional by the time the push comes (hence still need an answer). Thanks.
On December 14 2011 09:39 Tazerenix wrote: Interesting thought guys. I just played this build on korea and came up against a meching terran player (I know right what the fuck). As I did the push up the ramp with 2 stalkers, a zealot and a probe I came upon a bunker with 2 marines in it and 2 hellions. Intuitively I decided to just get a fast robo but what decision would you guys make? Which build would you follow if you came upon hellions when scouting the terrans front door?
Some hellions doesn't mean he is committed to mech. From the poke it seems like a reactor hellion build, and you're going to need 3 gates up asap (depending on map) and ofc robo to scout and in case banshees come.
If your question is what is the best response vs mech, most solid I've found is dual robo for coloss/immortals. Best comp ofc mothership/carriers. However tbh all protoss builds can handle mech, comes down to experience/skill.
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo Into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I Remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 Min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
1-gate FE is just an opening. How you defend that push depends on how you choose to transition. If your transition has sentries (it should) and doesn't skimp too much on army, you'll be fine.
Monk has written a guide on one good way to transition from 1 gate FE:
That transition actually skimps quite a bit on army to dump resources into upgrades and tech. To defend a 2-base stim timing with that mid-game, Monk suggests:
Extra rax: Get Ready for a dedicated stim push. Depending on the timing of the Push, you will need either 1 or 2 cannons. Again, you might have 1-1 finished, but without cannons, 4-5 rax of Bio will still totally Roll you over.
On December 14 2011 09:31 chestnutcc wrote: edit: Question 1 answered in the op
Is it advisable to push T's ramp with 6 stalkers and a zealot if you dont see a push coming within 7 minutes or so? (MC demonstrates such a 6 gate attack against the 1/1/1 in a video, albeit without a robo)
Er, no, this isn't advisable. Cloaked banshees is instant loss and you should never attack straight into a terran who's trying to allin you.
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes?
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries)
Exactly what kcdc said. Other options include colossi, charge, storm, or just good macro off of 6 gates. Again, this is an early-game guide and how you defend mid-game attacks is a mid-game issue which depends on your mid-game strategy.
Ok, I tried this one last night with some success. Question: are there maps and positions where this build is to risky? Also, if I see a 2 rax opening, should I still plow forward?
You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders.
On December 15 2011 01:03 Amornthep wrote: You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders.
Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps.
On December 15 2011 01:03 Amornthep wrote: You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders.
Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps.
I don't see why you can't use it on close pos metal.
I think adding a 4th gate after the robo is a great investment especially vs 1 base builds (ex 3rax stim). Doesnt have to be used. I tend to add 1-2 more gates solely for safety and proceed to double forge, not creating units out of those 2 gates.
On December 15 2011 01:03 Amornthep wrote: You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders.
Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps.
I don't see why you can't use it on close pos metal.
I am sure it is possible, but I need some more distance while I get used to the build. This was a heavy maruader build and I botched some mico and lost a stalker. I don't have a huge amount of "game time" and hashing out a thin build is something I want to ease into.
On December 15 2011 01:03 Amornthep wrote: You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders.
Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps.
I don't see why you can't use it on close pos metal.
I am sure it is possible, but I need some more distance while I get used to the build. This was a heavy maruader build and I botched some mico and lost a stalker. I don't have a huge amount of "game time" and hashing out a thin build is something I want to ease into.
Play however you think is fun, but this opening is nice in that it works on every position of every map, and using just 1 build every game for a MU might help you improve more quickly because you can focus on doing 1 style well.
is there a guide on coL.rsvp's PvZ (similarly to slayer's brown PvZ) i cant seem to find replays of him to figure out what he does, but i keep hearing about his amazing PvZ
On December 15 2011 06:07 unit wrote: is there a guide on coL.rsvp's PvZ (similarly to slayer's brown PvZ) i cant seem to find replays of him to figure out what he does, but i keep hearing about his amazing PvZ
I have a question about the second Stalker. What is the reason for it to be built before the Nexus? I just ran a test and with one chrono, the second Stalker will arrive at your natural before 1 Marine + 2 Marauders out of 1 rax do even if you start it after the Nexus, except maybe on Steppes of War. So do you build it at that time to pressure the Terran? To be safe against reapers/scv scouts when poking with Zealot/Stalker? Or to be generally safe against random proxy stuff, since building the Nexus a bit earlier is not that huge of a deal.
On December 15 2011 06:07 unit wrote: is there a guide on coL.rsvp's PvZ (similarly to slayer's brown PvZ) i cant seem to find replays of him to figure out what he does, but i keep hearing about his amazing PvZ
How is this relevant?
its not really, just asking you to add that into your future to do list, that said, this opening is good though i do prefer kcdc's 1stalker 1zealot 1gate nexus build
I do a very similiar build, but I like to keep a tight watch on the terran's expand timing. Every second you don't see a command center means an allin is more likely. Do you think so? I generally send an additional scouting probe out at the time I transfer probes to my natural. This comes slightly before your first observer, even in a very early robo build like this. It lets you see a tank/marine push coming. I suppose it could be done with a zealot or stalker as well.
1. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal.
2. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers?
3. Also, why is it necessary to sack the probe? The only way your poking units could die is if he has conc shells finished. You can gleam this information before the poke by either checking his rax between 3:20-4:00 (first marine comes out at 3:10 so first add-on will go down and there will be no other unit to kill the probe. However, If he doesn't have a wall off and you couldn't scout add-on then I agree suiciding would be the best option. Any particular reason why?
Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below:
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim".
I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard.
I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded.
Easytouch, I answered most of these questions on the last page.
1. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal.
I put the stalker half a step in front because it has bigger shield pool. If there's a depot wall with a few marines behind it, I immediately pull the stalker back so that the zealot starts tanking the damage, and then send the stalker up again to shoot at the marines.
2. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers?
Straight to the base. You can fire at the SCV if you see it, but waiting too long will necessitate a probe sac even if you know T made a second marine.
3. Also, why is it necessary to sack the probe? The only way your poking units could die is if he has conc shells finished. You can gleam this information before the poke by either checking his rax between 3:20-4:00 (first marine comes out at 3:10 so first add-on will go down and there will be no other unit to kill the probe. However, If he doesn't have a wall off and you couldn't scout add-on then I agree suiciding would be the best option. Any particular reason why?
You don't need to sac a probe if you see a fast second marine or see the first rax naked or with a reactor. Letting you have this info is a small screw-up on the Terran's part, but a lot of times it happens. Don't sac a probe if you know the poke is safe.
Also, Monk I noticed a few typos in the guide, they are both in the Scenario 2 section:
1. you say to get second gas on 32. However, this is after the queue of the 32 stalker, this would bring your supply up to 34, not 32.
2. You conclude it saying as long as you macro properly? Is that supposed to be micro? The only way macro can make a difference in whether you hold the push would be if you didn't get your gates out in time/ didnt get the third stalker out.
On December 15 2011 12:14 Plansix wrote: Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below:
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim".
I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard.
I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded.
First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad.
2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base.
On December 15 2011 12:33 Easytouch1500 wrote: alright thanks!
Also, Monk I noticed a few typos in the guide, they are both in the Scenario 2 section:
1. you say to get second gas on 32. However, this is after the queue of the 32 stalker, this would bring your supply up to 34, not 32.
2. You conclude it saying as long as you macro properly? Is that supposed to be micro? The only way macro can make a difference in whether you hold the push would be if you didn't get your gates out in time/ didnt get the third stalker out.
1. Yea, good catch. 2. Yea, I mean macro, exactly how you described it. I just meant that it's really easy to hold 2 rax with this build.
On December 15 2011 12:14 Plansix wrote: Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below:
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim".
I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard.
I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded.
First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad.
2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base.
So just macro better.
All right, not the most helpful tips I have gotten on the first game, since it most amounts to "be better at starcraft 2". Clearly I need to just build more stuff in general, fewer probes and fewer stalkers. I will try to get the robo earlier and default to that if I don't get a clear read on the scout. I will dive into the replays tomorrow and see if I can learn something more from them.
On December 15 2011 12:14 Plansix wrote: Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below:
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim".
I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard.
I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded.
First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad.
2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base.
So just macro better.
All right, not the most helpful tips I have gotten on the first game, since it most amounts to "be better at starcraft 2". Clearly I need to just build more stuff in general, fewer probes and fewer stalkers. I will try to get the robo earlier and default to that if I don't get a clear read on the scout. I will dive into the replays tomorrow and see if I can learn something more from them.
The truth of the matter is that no decision making or scouting in the world would have saved you in the first game if you can't significantly macro better.
On December 15 2011 12:14 Plansix wrote: Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below:
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim".
I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard.
I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded.
First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad.
2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base.
So just macro better.
All right, not the most helpful tips I have gotten on the first game, since it most amounts to "be better at starcraft 2". Clearly I need to just build more stuff in general, fewer probes and fewer stalkers. I will try to get the robo earlier and default to that if I don't get a clear read on the scout. I will dive into the replays tomorrow and see if I can learn something more from them.
The truth of the matter is that no decision making or scouting in the world would have saved you in the first game if you can't significantly macro better.
Well it is clear I have a lot to work on then.
For future reference, people who ask for advice in your thread rarely enjoy being called "terrible". Regardless of how bad their play is, they took the time to read your thread and thought the build you suggested was worth their time. There are more constructive ways to inform a player of the weakness in their play without insulting it and them by extension.
I appreciate you taking the time to watch the replays. Thanks for the help.
Hmm, monk. You say to get the core at 17, do you cut probes at 17 for a short while to get the core right when the gate finishes? I looked at the replay from the MVP game and it looked like MC got his core at 18. He chose not to ever stop probe production and got core a bit after gate finished on 18. Do I just need to mineral stack better? I consider my mineral stacking pretty good and could never get my core out on 17 without a probe cut even on maps like xel'naga.
On December 15 2011 14:04 Easytouch1500 wrote: Hmm, monk. You say to get the core at 17, do you cut probes at 17 for a short while to get the core right when the gate finishes? I looked at the replay from the MVP game and it looked like MC got his core at 18. He chose not to ever stop probe production and got core a bit after gate finished on 18. Do I just need to mineral stack better? I consider my mineral stacking pretty good and could never get my core out on 17 without a probe cut even on maps like xel'naga.
You're probably right that it's 18. I think I got the exact build off of a combination of games, one where MC just happened to go 12 gate 17 core. 17/18 core doesn't matter much though.
Hmm, well I was doing some testing today. In the case of an 18 core you get your core out at around 2:45. With a 50 second build time on core and then 160 WG time you will usually get WG done at 6:15- 6:20. From my testings if you go 3rd stalker before gates, like in scenario two, you can still get your gateways done by the end of warpgate research. Thus you can squeeze an extra stalker out before warpgate.
Why then would you not want to get this 3rd stalker out before Warpgate just to be extra safe at no real expense other than a slightly longer probe cut and slightly later gas. Is that the only reason?
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I'm sorry if this has been posted somewhere else in the thread. I didnt read all the comments. This is 1 of MC's expand's aswell which you didnt add(shows in part 2)
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I was supporting you until I saw the kinds of hats you wear.
Anyway, the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the OP is responses to a gassless expand in terms of what you could do as a minor deviation. MC for instance in the video linked goes for a 4 gate when he scouts no gas with his build. As it could be either a naked rax expand or some kind of marine allin, (6 rax).
I agree everything needs to be accounted for to some extent.
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I was supporting you until I saw the kinds of hats you wear.
Anyway, the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the OP is responses to a gassless expand in terms of what you could do as a minor deviation. MC for instance in the video linked goes for a 4 gate when he scouts no gas with his build. As it could be either a naked rax expand or some kind of marine allin, (6 rax).
I agree everything needs to be accounted for to some extent.
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I was supporting you until I saw the kinds of hats you wear.
Anyway, the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the OP is responses to a gassless expand in terms of what you could do as a minor deviation. MC for instance in the video linked goes for a 4 gate when he scouts no gas with his build. As it could be either a naked rax expand or some kind of marine allin, (6 rax).
I agree everything needs to be accounted for to some extent.
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I was supporting you until I saw the kinds of hats you wear.
Anyway, the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the OP is responses to a gassless expand in terms of what you could do as a minor deviation. MC for instance in the video linked goes for a 4 gate when he scouts no gas with his build. As it could be either a naked rax expand or some kind of marine allin, (6 rax).
I agree everything needs to be accounted for to some extent.
It's good that this build is documented properly, I've always been using a 1-gate-FE-robo against terran and I can execute it quite easily, however I only do this on cross positions, where in cases of closer positions I opt for a 1gate-robo-FE.
I've also found that if the terran also does a FE build, that taking a quick third (especially on Antiga) is quite powerful too, delaying natural gases and set the stone for a macro game. The important part is having a right response 'flowchart' in your mind in what the terran does. Aggressive play would be doing for warp prism drops for harassment where passive macro play is to grab another base.
On December 16 2011 06:49 zmansman17 wrote: The percentages really aren't helpful at all.
If you see tech lab, that is either Marauder or Reaper FE. The other options like 2 rax tech lab/naked aren't even viable and certainly don't follow the meta game or what any decent player would do (as it would put you far behind and do little to no damage)
I agree, it makes sense to list everything equally so that you have even less scouting information.
Secondly, that timing of 2 rax tech lab/naked is still pretty popular and does a ton of damage if not scouted so it makes sense for it to be included in there.
Reaper expands are just kind of silly, if you don't see two marauders when you do the poke, leave your second stalker at home and the reaper becomes useless.
I think you're supporting me, but I can't be completely sure.
Anyways, if you don't account for all the other possible options, no matter how unlikely they are, you will lose games. There are responses I could recommend that give you more econ versus 1 rax techlab expand, but they won't account as well for that 2 rax push.
I was supporting you until I saw the kinds of hats you wear.
Anyway, the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the OP is responses to a gassless expand in terms of what you could do as a minor deviation. MC for instance in the video linked goes for a 4 gate when he scouts no gas with his build. As it could be either a naked rax expand or some kind of marine allin, (6 rax).
I agree everything needs to be accounted for to some extent.
I assumed that's where the whole "lessons learned" and guide writing came from.
This is how I always imagined you. 'Cept you were also sitting cross legged and floating 2 feet above the ground.
Another great guide. Keep em coming, cant wait till I move and unload the stress of RL and take up learning some more sc again.
<3 monk
I have been blindly doing the reaction you state as best vs 1/1/1 on Korea with a high win rate in PvT... Koreans are still doing alot of 1/1/1. No wonder it seemed to work lol.
i've seen a lot of games where they use the third 3 chrono on the nexus after placing the core but before placing the 2nd gas in a 2 gas build. how much does using the chrono boost before core slow down cybercore timing?
Third chrono doesn't make that much of a difference in core timing. About 5 or so seconds. However, the difference between chronoboosting before and after is I believe around 20 or so minerals. I think chronoboosting earlier is the better idea but do whatever floats your boat.
all in all this is a solid guide im a silver and i still was able to comprehend what hes saying itll help me stomp all these nubs with bad timings^_^ i wish there was a guide completely devoted to timing attacks tho the only one whos ever covered it is day 9
Do you know why MVP goes 1 base all in from 2 Barracks against MC in Shattered Temple?
The answer is that MVP has 10 SCVs rallied to Gas from 3:00 to 5:30.
Doesn't expect such a huge blunder from the best Terran in the world. @@
It was a somehow unimpressive hold of the 2rax in itself, seeing how it ended up as an even trade. I think having a second Zealot and/or a Sentry with Guardian Shield is preferable to 1 Zealot + rest Stalkers.
Do you know why MVP goes 1 base all in from 2 Barracks against MC in Shattered Temple?
The answer is that MVP has 10 SCVs rallied to Gas from 3:00 to 5:30.
Doesn't expect such a huge blunder from the best Terran in the world. @@
It was a somehow unimpressive hold of the 2rax in itself, seeing how it ended up as an even trade. I think having a second Zealot and/or a Sentry with Guardian Shield is preferable to 1 Zealot + rest Stalkers.
They shine at different times. This build can deal with early bunker pressure (~5:30) a lot easier, I would also argue it has a slightly easier time dealing with marine scv all in but it depends how well you utilize your one force field.
As mentioned in the OP, the main reason for skipping sentry is to get a really early robotics.
On December 17 2011 14:01 Automata wrote: Thanks for the guide. If I'm doing 1gate FE, and scout a 3rax bio all-in/semi-all-in, what would be the correct response when doing this build?
Depends on the timing. If it's before 8 minutes, he probably won't have stim. If you scout him moving out before then, you want cut sentry production and chrono out zealot/stalker and an immortal if you can get it out on time. If it's after 8 minutes, he'll probably have stim. You'll want at least 4 sentry to hold this off along with 1-2 immortals and a more zealot heavy army. The key versus these stim pushes is to keep making units and don't overmake probes until you're sure he has a 2nd cc.
Thanks very much monk, this guide has helped my PVT so much, especially in the early game.
One question: if my probe manages to scout their build early on, should I still do the poke if I see the second barracks building? I did the poke anyways just to be safe one game and lost my stalker to concussive (which seemed obvious due to scouting 2nd barracks building), but then another game I saw a second barracks building and decided against the poke and lost to a 1 base 4 rax allin. He killed my scout at the tower at the last second, then moved out.
It seems like Terran can hide their unit count and only show 1-2 marines/marauder to hold off the poke if they want to, which could technically be anything from 1raxtech lab FE to 3 rax.
TLDR: Probe sees second barracks building: still do the poke at 5 mins or not?
From what I have understood from kcdc's replies to a similar question I had on page 5 is that you still want to do the poke. However, you forgot the probe sack. In the guide Monk says to sack a probe before going up the ramp and if you see a marauder shot to not go up. However, if the terran decided to wall off it is very easy to see their first add-on or if they went for a second marine. If they went reactor or 2 marines before add-on they usually won't have conc by the time your poke gets their, so don't sack a probe if you scouted either of those. However, if you scouted a tech lab first they most likely will have conc shells, so in this situation you would want to sack the probe.
I'd be interested in seeing Whitera's PvT (if you watch his stream that is)
Often times he does a pretty cool build, it's something like: (the building order varies sometimes, presumably based upon what he scouts) 1gate expand 3gates/council/forge (goes for armor and charge first) 6gates/templar archive/second forge when researching plus 3 armor (then gets weapons/shields together)
but what I find interesting is he usually takes like a 9minute or less third!
I haven't had time to really analyze it much to see if it's a safe/standard style or he's just being super risky, but he seems to do well ^_^.
just a suggestion xD
also this is my standard pvt opening now @ mid/high masters, with good success. So much thanks
Even as a master player, I still don't know what to do vs 2 rax reactor techlab push with this build order which counters it.
Do I wait for warp in? (I feel like I run the risk of losing the Nexus)
Do I engage with my 1 zealot + 2 stalkers... I normally lose this engagement...how should I micro my units? I try to target fire the marauder then kite the marines, but normally my units die and he kills the nexus while I'm finally able to clean it up with sufficient gateway units.
On December 29 2011 08:27 Artisian wrote: looks great. Any chance you'd link a suggested variation for going against a gassless fe?
You can cancel the zealot and go for huk 20 nexus then pressure the front.
So in this situation the build would look like:
9 pylon * 12 gate -> scout * 14 gas * 15 pylon 17 core 18 zealot ~3:11 leave as the first marine comes out, you see the cc building / assume fe cancel zealot cut probes at 20 pull 2 probes off gas send a probe to natural warpgate tech ** 20 nexus stalker resume mining gas with 3 probes 22 gate 22 gate stalker resume probes pylon *** @ 100% warpgate warp-in 3 stalkers * chrono nexus ** chrono warpgate tech 4 times *** proxy
On January 02 2012 13:20 Contractor wrote: Even as a master player, I still don't know what to do vs 2 rax reactor techlab push with this build order which counters it.
Do I wait for warp in? (I feel like I run the risk of losing the Nexus)
Do I engage with my 1 zealot + 2 stalkers... I normally lose this engagement...how should I micro my units? I try to target fire the marauder then kite the marines, but normally my units die and he kills the nexus while I'm finally able to clean it up with sufficient gateway units.
The most important thing is not losing your early units during your poke at the front and being on time with your 2nd and 3rd gates.
If I expect the 2rax reactor techlab push I delay the robo and chrono out a sentry followed by a stalker, Don't engage fully until warp-ins but poke at his army where you can without getting hit by a marauder and deny bunkers as best as possible. Warp-in 3 stalkers into your natural and go with guardian shield 6 stalkers and a zealot. Use your stalkers to focus fire the marauders and snipe any scvs building bunkers and then micro stalkers against the left over marines.
As long as bunkers don't get up should be pretty straight forward.
You have to be active on your scouting though, make sure there is no bunker on top of his ramp before you decide to delay the robo.
On January 02 2012 13:20 Contractor wrote: Even as a master player, I still don't know what to do vs 2 rax reactor techlab push with this build order which counters it.
Do I wait for warp in? (I feel like I run the risk of losing the Nexus)
Do I engage with my 1 zealot + 2 stalkers... I normally lose this engagement...how should I micro my units? I try to target fire the marauder then kite the marines, but normally my units die and he kills the nexus while I'm finally able to clean it up with sufficient gateway units.
The most important thing is not losing your early units during your poke at the front and being on time with your 2nd and 3rd gates.
If I expect the 2rax reactor techlab push I delay the robo and chrono out a sentry followed by a stalker, Don't engage fully until warp-ins but poke at his army where you can without getting hit by a marauder and deny bunkers as best as possible. Warp-in 3 stalkers into your natural and go with guardian shield 6 stalkers and a zealot. Use your stalkers to focus fire the marauders and snipe any scvs building bunkers and then micro stalkers against the left over marines.
As long as bunkers don't get up should be pretty straight forward.
You have to be active on your scouting though, make sure there is no bunker on top of his ramp before you decide to delay the robo.
Ok thanks...that sounds good. I'm engaging to early I think.
With this build on small maps (XNC, metalopolis) you don't really have to scout imo. You can simply go zealot-stalker-stalker with 2 boosts on the stalkers and do the poke to see what they are doing, not scouting saves about 100 minerals which can really make the expo faster while at the same time not needing to cut probes as much. The stalkers allow you to respond to anything in time basically, against some rare no gas marine all-ins you might have to cancel the nexus but the loss of minerals then is the same you had already gained by not scouting so no biggie. Besides if you make a pylon so you can walloff the no gas marine all-in really isn't that problematic. Against the rest zealot-stalker-stalker-stalker provides enough defense to be safe really.
Hey Monk what do you do if you scout no gas from Terran? It may be worth it to detail a guide out specifically for this since it seems to be very common on ladder and this version of 1-Gate FE isn't optimal in that scenario. In particular, the gasless 1-Rax FE into naked 4-Rax 14 Marine push @ ~7mins seems to be very, very popular @ low masters.
Currently I'm doing the old 20-food 1-Gate FE and warping in 3 Stalkers on my first round of warp-ins @ 6 mins, giving me a total of 5 stalkers. I then use these Stalkers to poke their front (I arrive just before they usually push out) and if I scout 10+ marines I know they are doing the naked 4-Rax and I can kite his marines all the way across the map. This is the best build I could come up with to deal with this push and since naked 4-Rax pressure doesn't really see much play at the pro levels I do not know what is optimal.
On January 03 2012 15:24 Skyro wrote: Hey Monk what do you do if you scout no gas from Terran? It may be worth it to detail a guide out specifically for this since it seems to be very common on ladder and this version of 1-Gate FE isn't optimal in that scenario. In particular, the gasless 1-Rax FE into naked 4-Rax 14 Marine push @ ~7mins seems to be very, very popular @ low masters.
Currently I'm doing the old 20-food 1-Gate FE and warping in 3 Stalkers on my first round of warp-ins @ 6 mins, giving me a total of 5 stalkers. I then use these Stalkers to poke their front (I arrive just before they usually push out) and if I scout 10+ marines I know they are doing the naked 4-Rax and I can kite his marines all the way across the map. This is the best build I could come up with to deal with this push and since naked 4-Rax pressure doesn't really see much play at the pro levels I do not know what is optimal.
Not sure how much you'll value this response, but I think what you're doing is actually fine. Depending on when you scout a no gas expand you can decide to delay your core or just pull probes off gas and cut everything for a fast nexus. On larger maps though I think the 20 food expand into warpgate pressure is fine since you can devote all of your chronoboost to probes after your initial poke.
On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot.
timing on his Barack
His what?
I believe HuK himself said his 20 food nexus had some flaws against 2 rax reactor first, that's what he said at least.
On really big maps I like to do the Axslav style Nexus first. Against gas you go pylon nexus gateway pylon gateway gas core and chrono out your first few zealots whilst getting a second gas then chronoing stalkers to hold any sort of fast 2 rax rush, and if you scout no gas you can just go 1 gate chronoboosting out of it then dropping 2 more gates some time after your core is up. On something like cross positions Shattered/Meta, TDA, cross Antiga and Shakuras it's amazingly safe against anything but scv allins.
Im not sure if my 1 gate expo is identical to huks but I learned it from the thread about it. Maybe mines a bit different I go 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 15 pylon 17 or 16 cyber depends on if you scout stalker when possible chrono only wg expo 2 more gates stalker 2 pylons few probes should be able to warp in 3 stalkers now
You basically have 5 stalkers vs his 6-7 marines and one marauder. focus fire the marauder and its gg I cut quite a few probes but it really is impossible to lose vs any 2 rax unless he pulls quite a few scvs and you either skimp on units or micro incredibly poorly.
I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
are there any other replays for this? i would love to see someone much better than me do this. I used to do the 1-2 gate into robo pressure but since the 1-1-1 became popular, that got completely wrecked so i switched to this. I'm not doing as well because i just don't know how to deal with all the situations like a masters player would, what transitions do people make, is this a reactive build in the mid game or an aggressive build? MC is very aggressive, but then again the build could change to be reactive. My point is, NrGMonk / strategy writing god, are there any other replays i can download of this build so that i can become less chobo?
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
Thank you very much for the build monk, in return I give you a GM game where I best one of your comrades in glorious combat. Using the build in question of course.
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Really interesting, I used to go for Huk's FE as my staple build in PvT when it got popular, but always thought it wasn't doing that well in the economy department since you have to cut probes earlier than other 1Gate FE builds (which, I believe, means not having that 19th probe's benefits starting to add up early; just like the difference between pylon and gate scouting) and for a longer period of time (since you have less probes, pooling 300 minerals for 2 gates take even more time). Even the slighty earlier nexus wouldn't make it worth, to me.
Guess I was wrong, and since the best answer to a gasless expand implies more focus on economy and stalkers to defend any possible un-upgraded marine aggression it should be one suitable way to go against a gasless expand.
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe.
Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[
edit: Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks.
Once you get the robo and 3 gates up when do you start adding forge/forge's, take a third, and a templar archives (can you do templar archives on 2 base?). I hear that taking a third in PVT is extremely situational but how so?
Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide.
On January 06 2012 16:14 deadmau wrote: Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide.
It's mostly grammar and spelling, etc... With all my guides, if I add something big, I'll post something in the thread about it.
On January 06 2012 16:14 deadmau wrote: Nrgmonkk, can you please add a changelog? It's pretty frustrating looking at a new "Last edit:" and then trying to figure out what was edited, but not being able to find it. If ya got time, thanks for the guide.
It's mostly grammar and spelling, etc... With all my guides, if I add something big, I'll post something in the thread about it.
Cool thanks, i follow your guides a lot, and when i see edit, im not sure if it's because of a metagame shift, or what, thanks for the clarification. Also if you do make a big/important edit, a Change Log in "Spoiler" would be even better, as this thread could get very large and will be hard to find the edits scattered all over.
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe.
Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[
edit: Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks.
I don't like to delay warpgate too much because vs a gasless expand having those quick 5 stalkers is nice to get map control and are very nice to pick units off with (5 stalkers 1 shot marines and 2 shot marauders). 5 Stalkers is a big enough army where the Terran has to "show his hand" so to speak with his own army which is pretty crucial. I personally cut probes at 20 for the Nexus and again @ 24 for the 2 gates. The cut @ 24 isn't that bad at all, and I time it with 4 chronos on warpgate to get my first warpin ~6mins. Also a 3-Rax SCV all-in pushes out ~5:00 or so, which I believe may be possible to defend with the faster warp-gate timing and good micro (not sure I haven't faced it yet w/ this build).
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
I think I need to play some practice games and work out some kinks. I have slowly started to survive longer against 3 rax but I think after the weekend if I'm still having issues ill get some replays together and post them.
I just wanted to know what general approach to take to help me guide my practice more effectively. Thanks monk
On January 03 2012 16:50 SelK wrote: I don't know the exact timing but HuK 20 food FE issue against 2Raxx is probably the fact that you only have 2 stalkers until warpgate is done.
I, for one, manage to hold 2 raxx reactor techlab quite often enough just by following Monk's recommendation of chronoboosting stalkers out of the first gateway. The main thing is that you have to poke to scout it and not lose any unit from a possible ambush (since poking at the ramp is really common in PvT early game). Even if you have to cut probe for a slighty longer period, you are free to chrono probes after you crushed the push.
Huk's 20-food FE had issues with a 2-rax w/ SCVs pulled (you'd have to pull probes). AFAIK it could stop a normal 2-rax aggression w/ no SCVs just fine. Chrono'ing the gate isn't really a workaround because Huk's build chrono's warpgate to get 3 warpgates up ASAP, whereas MC's FE build focuses more on chrono'ing the initial gateway. You don't have enough chronos to chrono both at the same time and tinkering with the chronos in such a fashion just makes it inefficient.
Also Huk's FE build is quite old, and the comment about it having issues with 2-rax was before the rax build time nerf (+5 secs). I'm not sure if it still applies or not since I don't use it if I scout a gas opener from Terran, but I'm guessing it does since the build skips the initial zealot. It is my go-to FE build when I scout a gasless opener from Terran however since that means no early marauders so skipping the zealot isn't a big deal.
My question in particular was if Huk's FE build was the best economical opener after scouting Terran with a gasless opener, which is a very common scenario to be in. If you 9 Pylon scout you can scout if the Terran is going gasless or not on every map except 4-player maps with 4 possible spawns and they happen to be in the last possible scout location (although in that case you could send a 2nd probe if you want). A lot of terrans seem to quickly build a 2nd depot to block out your scouting probe, but any 2nd depot before 3 mins basically means a gasless opener. I suppose it's possible to throw down a Nexus before your core, but I don't know if that is a great idea since that delays stalkers even longer, plus I don't know how much more economical it even really is.
I did a lot of testing and from what I can see, Huk's 20nexus (22gate x2) is very similar in economy when compared to kcdc's 27nexus around the timing a 2rax would hit (~6:30). kcdc's opener actually seems to have around 1 1/2 probes more than Huk's which can probably be made up with the extra nexus energy from a 20 nexus. Of course their timings/types of production structures are different for the two builds, so I'm strictly looking at the probe count here after both nexus are finish and constantly producing probes. They both attain very similar amounts of units at similar times, but huk's warp in cycle is 10s faster due to an extra chrono.
I think the most economical 1gate fe vs a gasless fe would be a 20nexus without probe cutting to throw down the additional gates. Not sure how safe this is as I don't do this myself, but I've seen some minigun and hero do it on their stream before. Strictly talking about economy, I'm pretty sure that is the most economical.
Yes actually that is kinda what I do. Like I said I only use the 20 Nexus opener if I scout a gasless opener from Terran so I am not worried about a 2-rax timing. The first timing of concern vs a gassless FE terran that I've seen is the naked 4-rax push which pushes out @ 7 mins, and you don't have to cut probes to get out your gates in time to defend that. The only real concern vs a gasless opening is if they try to trick you by faking a FE (i.e. guarding their ramp) and then 3-rax SCV all-in or some sort of proxy rax shenanigans.
haha you're kinda screwed against scv all ins if you don't scout well, like hero vs mvp in the blizzard cup where mvp just hid two additional barracks in the corner of his base and hero's probe didn't see it and thought it was gassless fe.
Yea I actually started doing 20nexus into something like MC's 1gate fe here, where you get the nexus on 20, make 2 stalkers both chrono'ed, and add 2 more gates on 30 without probe cutting. With zero chrono's on warpgate the gateways finish at the same time. Sadly, for whatever reason I haven't been able to fit in an early robotics (before warpgates) if I want to warp in 3 stalkers @warpgate 100% and still constantly produce probes =[
edit: Btw, does anyone have a replay of holding ~7min tank marine pushes? Ideally an all-in one where the terran pulls the majority of his scvs. Early thanks.
I don't like to delay warpgate too much because vs a gasless expand having those quick 5 stalkers is nice to get map control and are very nice to pick units off with (5 stalkers 1 shot marines and 2 shot marauders). 5 Stalkers is a big enough army where the Terran has to "show his hand" so to speak with his own army which is pretty crucial. I personally cut probes at 20 for the Nexus and again @ 24 for the 2 gates. The cut @ 24 isn't that bad at all, and I time it with 4 chronos on warpgate to get my first warpin ~6mins. Also a 3-Rax SCV all-in pushes out ~5:00 or so, which I believe may be possible to defend with the faster warp-gate timing and good micro (not sure I haven't faced it yet w/ this build).
Everyone has their own go-to 1gate FE style. I take map control just fine with one stalker when I scout gassless fe. The only timing before my obs gets to his base is a 4rax marine push, which admittedly can be hard to deal with if you don't use chronos on your core. Easy hold on antiga/shakuras though. I just don't really see the need to force the terran to 'show his hand' in the timing before an obs gets to his base.
Your build would have an easier time vs a 4rax, and you wouldn't be dead as shit vs marine-scv all in. It's only inferior vs standard macro play, but not by much of course.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
So, when should I cut probes then?
35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
So, when should I cut probes then?
35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
ok, thank you very much for taking the time to look at the replay and thanks for the solid advice.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
So, when should I cut probes then?
35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
When do you start probe production again? and do you just have to let they expo go vs a 3 rax or can you even defend it?
On January 09 2012 11:44 chambertin wrote: Awesome guide. Thanks a lot monk
Could you ( or another wise soul...) offer a plat noob some clarification on the differences of this vs KCDC's fe ?
TY
KCDC's gets about 2 probes ahead than this plus an earlier sentry. This one can defend pressures easier and doesn't require as much of a blind read for robo timing.
On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote: Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot?
In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay.
Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3rax And yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend.
I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate.
thoughts?
Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units.
So, when should I cut probes then?
35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
When do you start probe production again? and do you just have to let they expo go vs a 3 rax or can you even defend it?
You start when you do see a 2nd cc. As long as they don't pull scvs, you can defend any 3 rax without giving up your expo. If they do, consider giving up your expansion.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote: Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
I've actually been hitting this a lot lately. If the bunker's actually complete, then I don't know what the proper handling of the situation would be. However, if I do scout this, and I can kill the SCV's, then proper stalker Micro will stop it cold. I have been pulling 3-4 probes to help kill the scvs, then return them to their mining duties once the bunker threat is over.
On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote: If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction?
Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin.
On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote: How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote: Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote: How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote: Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh?
It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE.
He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first?
I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind.
As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too?
On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote: If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction?
Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin.
On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote: How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote: Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh?
It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE.
He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first?
I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind.
Really depends on the game, but generally, you want to kite his marines/scvs with your stalker all the way back to your base. Personally, if I scouted that I would chorno out stalkers, kiting his incoming army while going 3 gate, but again really depends on the individual game.
As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too?
No, 2 rax and 3 rax should have different reactions. They will differ in what you see when you initially poke and the timing they leave with. Again, it really depends a lot on the individual game. A good general rule I use against bio play if you know it's either 2 or 3 rax is to make zealot/sentry if they haven't left their base yet, but zealot/stalker if they have. Zealot/sentry sets you up better for later pushes by building up sentry energy and it's necessary vs later stim pushes. Zealot/stalker is best in a direct engagement against small numbers of bio when you don't already have sentries.
On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote: If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction?
Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin.
On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote: How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote: Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh?
It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE.
He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first?
I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind.
Really depends on the game, but generally, you want to kite his marines/scvs with your stalker all the way back to your base. Personally, if I scouted that I would chorno out stalkers, kiting his incoming army while going 3 gate, but again really depends on the individual game.
As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too?
No, 2 rax and 3 rax should have different reactions. They will differ in what you see when you initially poke and the timing they leave with. Again, it really depends a lot on the individual game. A good general rule I use against bio play if you know it's either 2 or 3 rax is to make zealot/sentry if they haven't left their base yet, but zealot/stalker if they have. Zealot/sentry sets you up better for later pushes by building up sentry energy and it's necessary vs later stim pushes. Zealot/stalker is best in a direct engagement against small numbers of bio when you don't already have sentries.
Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately.
There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder.
Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it.
On January 20 2012 07:02 charliexjustice wrote: Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately.
There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder.
Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it.
You cut probes a bit too much as he is threatening you. A 2-3 rax tech lab opening doesn't pressure that much that early as compared to a reactor first 2 rax.
You don't have good scouting after you nexus goes down. You should have a probe on the map scouting for whether he has an expansion or not. The rest of your mistakes come from the fact that you play too greedy, because you don't know this information.
You get your 3rd and 4th gas without knowing if he is on 1 or 2 base.
You don't keep your macro up on your gates. It's very important to constantly produce out of those against a push like this.
You get 2 observers on your robo. If you invest in a robo, you almost need to get an immortal to hold a push like this. At the very least, go obs, immortal, but I personally suggest immortal first if you see bio pressure without a hint of an expansion.
Not enough sentries, no guardian shield. Against a stim push, you really want 3-4 sentries at that point, while you only had 2 with low energy.
So in summary, from the first 2 points, you should play more greedy until about 30 seconds after your nexus finishes, then scout and play less greedy reactively as a result of that scouting information. If you follow all of that, you'll have something like 2 more zealots, 1 more sentry, and 1 more immortal, more than enough to hold that push. You'll also have around the same number of probes, but 2 less geysers, and one less observer.
On January 20 2012 07:02 charliexjustice wrote: Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately.
There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder.
Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it.
You cut probes a bit too much as he is threatening you. A 2-3 rax tech lab opening doesn't pressure that much that early as compared to a reactor first 2 rax.
You don't have good scouting after you nexus goes down. You should have a probe on the map scouting for whether he has an expansion or not. The rest of your mistakes come from the fact that you play too greedy, because you don't know this information.
You get your 3rd and 4th gas without knowing if he is on 1 or 2 base.
You don't keep your macro up on your gates. It's very important to constantly produce out of those against a push like this.
You get 2 observers on your robo. If you invest in a robo, you almost need to get an immortal to hold a push like this. At the very least, go obs, immortal, but I personally suggest immortal first if you see bio pressure without a hint of an expansion.
Not enough sentries, no guardian shield. Against a stim push, you really want 3-4 sentries at that point, while you only had 2 with low energy.
So in summary, from the first 2 points, you should play more greedy until about 30 seconds after your nexus finishes, then scout and play less greedy reactively as a result of that scouting information. If you follow all of that, you'll have something like 2 more zealots, 1 more sentry, and 1 more immortal, more than enough to hold that push. You'll also have around the same number of probes, but 2 less geysers, and one less observer.
Thank you very much.
My probe frequently dies in the poke, especially against concussive marauders. Should I just send another probe? Is this probe mostly looking for expansions? How can I even know when Terran expos inside their own base, and has marines/marauders posted outside like in that replay?
I recalled from another guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549) that I should get 3rd and 4th gas around 7:40, which I did. Is my obs supposed to be there by then, or is my probe scout supposed to find out if there is an expo?
If I see a marauder or marine group (implying bio pressure) should I skip the first two obs and go straight for immortal?
I must have totally misread your guides. They seemed to be working so well for me until recently
Artosis said on the GSL the other night that genius style is THE pvt style we should all be practicing, so I'm determined to make this work.
On January 20 2012 08:57 charliexjustice wrote: Thank you very much.
My probe frequently dies in the poke, especially against concussive marauders. Should I just send another probe? Is this probe mostly looking for expansions? How can I even know when Terran expos inside their own base, and has marines/marauders posted outside like in that replay? Yes, send another probe, mostly to look for expansions. You can't know if he expanded in his base until your obs gets to his base.
I recalled from another guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549) that I should get 3rd and 4th gas around 7:40, which I did. Is my obs supposed to be there by then, or is my probe scout supposed to find out if there is an expo? That's assuming you know your opponent has expanded. In addition, 7:40 is assuming you're not being pressured at all when your opponent is on 2 bases.
If I see a marauder or marine group (implying bio pressure) should I skip the first two obs and go straight for immortal? No, not always. It depends on the specific game.
I must have totally misread your guides. They seemed to be working so well for me until recently
Artosis said on the GSL the other night that genius style is THE pvt style we should all be practicing, so I'm determined to make this work. You shouldn't listen to artosis blindly. The creator style is close to what Genius did in that game, but not exactly.
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in. 2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on 1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand. 2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream) if possible.
On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote: Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in. 2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on 1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand. 2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream) if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
These are awesome questions, I will be checking back to see what monk has to say.
On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote: Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in. 2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on 1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand. 2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream) if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
1. No chronoboost on warpgates. Instead, I always use the chronoboost on either units from my first gateway or probes/observer depending on the situation. 2. Warp in 3 stalkers. Focus the marauders as long as they're not too far back. Then, you can kite the marines with your stalkers after your zealot dies. You can ideally have 1 zealot and 4 stalkers before you warp anything in. Engage based on judgment, but generally as early as possible to prevent bunkers from going up.
On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote: Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in. 2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on 1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand. 2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream) if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
1. No chronoboost on warpgates. Instead, I always use the chronoboost on either units from my first gateway or probes/observer depending on the situation. 2. Warp in 3 stalkers. Focus the marauders as long as they're not too far back. Then, you can kite the marines with your stalkers after your zealot dies. You can ideally have 1 zealot and 4 stalkers before you warp anything in. Engage based on judgment, but generally as early as possible to prevent bunkers from going up.
In a theorycrafty way, 5 stalker 2 zeal could be good too, as 5 stalkers is the magic number to 2-shot marauders and 1-shot marines.
Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
On January 24 2012 22:52 chestnutcc wrote: Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
Would be helpful if you could post the replay of that game, it will make it easier for people to help you. From what you said though I think you built too many stalkers, I think your frist warp-in should be zeal/sentry unless the terran is literally shooting down your nexus, and also pretty much zeal/sentry until about 9:00/9:30 when drops start happening. But yeah I think you may have invested too much in stalker before you knew what he was doing, remember stalkers are terrible fighting units.
I didn't post a replay because I wasn't following the build here, it just crossed my mind that the push mentioned would be more problematic for this build. You are right in that I reacted sub optimally, getting partially supply blocked when he targeted down my forward pylon and then fumbling with the gas timings, but I wanted to hear a more thought out response in this contingency so I wouldn't have to improvise as much. I don't think early stalkers are bad vs a 2 rax though, but they do hurt vs a 3 rax.
On January 24 2012 22:52 chestnutcc wrote: Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
Yea, you really do need a replay. Generally, you can get clues about whether it's 2 or 3 rax based on the timing he pushes out and the unit composition he pushes out with. A good general rule is that if you don't feel threatened by his army or he hasn't pushed out yet, make sentries instead of stalkers.
On January 30 2012 00:41 Yuffie wrote: why is this 1. Zealot needed? I don't see where u need him since stalkers are defense enough..
without zealot, one could expand faster?
cheers
The zealot forces the terran to micro his units as opposed to just attacking the stalkers. Also, the zealot is extra dps if they micro poorly. If you focus the marauder with the zealot then its entirely possible that the marauder starts to run away if they have bad micro then you can micro vs the marines with the stalkers really easily.
EDIT: this response is made assuming the other person is doing a 2 rax so if you scout no gas you can skip the zealot
Love the build, pretty much my standard on most maps now. That marine tank push though... I am just terrible at holding. Any tips on unit composition? Usually against gas/naxed rax openings that look like marine tank/1-1-1. I'll go up to 3-4 stalkers and 1-2 sentries with the rest going into zealots and immortals once my observers are out.
I think perhaps in order to defend you really need to be kiting his marine tank across the map with at least 3-4 stalkers, because that army is huge, its nice if I could feel the push coming earlier through some lucky scouting so I can keep my stalkers in front of his base instead of in my mineral line ready for banshees.
Do you guys generally stay on 3gate 1robo here, or do you do up to 4gate? As well I won't spend my chronoboost on probes until I can get an obs in his base. It's not ideal against 1-1-1 but I think it helps me cut probes to deal with this push.
I think I'll try to find a practice partner to run this push on me a bunch of times. I'll report any findings.
On January 30 2012 00:41 Yuffie wrote: why is this 1. Zealot needed? I don't see where u need him since stalkers are defense enough..
without zealot, one could expand faster?
cheers
You need a zealot to stop any marauder based attacks and for the scouting poke.
On January 30 2012 02:43 RealAnalysis wrote: Love the build, pretty much my standard on most maps now. That marine tank push though... I am just terrible at holding. Any tips on unit composition? Usually against gas/naxed rax openings that look like marine tank/1-1-1. I'll go up to 3-4 stalkers and 1-2 sentries with the rest going into zealots and immortals once my observers are out.
I think perhaps in order to defend you really need to be kiting his marine tank across the map with at least 3-4 stalkers, because that army is huge, its nice if I could feel the push coming earlier through some lucky scouting so I can keep my stalkers in front of his base instead of in my mineral line ready for banshees.
Do you guys generally stay on 3gate 1robo here, or do you do up to 4gate? As well I won't spend my chronoboost on probes until I can get an obs in his base. It's not ideal against 1-1-1 but I think it helps me cut probes to deal with this push.
I think I'll try to find a practice partner to run this push on me a bunch of times. I'll report any findings.
You can't really kite across the whole map, because you need to keep your stalkers at home in case of banshee/hellions/drops. You can't really go up to 4 gates, because the 4th gate won't kick in in time. For reference, a standard push hits at 7:20. It's impossible to obs scout this in time, so the earliest possible time you can scout it reliably is when he leaves his base with all his units. This only gives you ~30 seconds for you to reactively build a gateway. Best advice for unit comp is all zealots/1 immortal/~2 sentries/spare stalkers by the time this push hits.
On January 30 2012 05:06 xsnac wrote: can you actualy explain how to transition into colossi or ht play ? thanks
Don't know what you want me to say. Build a robo bay? Build twilight then templar archives? Would take forever if I had to detail it out <.<.
On January 30 2012 05:06 xsnac wrote: can you actualy explain how to transition into colossi or ht play ? thanks
well you have 3gate robo... just throw up a colossus den when you want colossi? depending on how early you want it and how many sentries you like to get it'll affect the timings of your 3rd and 4th gas... not sure what kind of a response you were looking for exactly
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
-If you think your Nexus can survive until your first warp-in then yes let it tank damage -Composition wise you should not need more than 5 Stalkers. 5 Stalkers kill marauders in 2-volleys and marines in 1 volley. Make enough Zealots to tank for your stalkers, and you do not want to make any Sentries when trying to defend your natural expand vs. a 2-rax. -I would suggest your learn how to scout to acquire the game sense needed to discern if there is a 2-rax coming, rather than always just plan for a 2-rax as this will simply make you a better player in the long run. A 30 Nexus is already quite far behind economically from a 1-rax FE, and needlessly cutting Probes longer than you have to is not something you should be doing.
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
If you're having problems, post a replay.
You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
If you're having problems, post a replay.
You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
No 4 stalkers.
You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo.
After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo
Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
If you're having problems, post a replay.
You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
No 4 stalkers.
You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo.
After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo
Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not
Interesting... Because, yeah, I lose to 2 rax sometimes :/ Will try for sure now. Can somebody tell me what clues indicate a 2 rax pressure when scouting? Cheers
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote: I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
If you're having problems, post a replay.
You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
No 4 stalkers.
You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo.
After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo
Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not
Interesting... Because, yeah, I lose to 2 rax sometimes :/ Will try for sure now. Can somebody tell me what clues indicate a 2 rax pressure when scouting? Cheers
What's the most ideal way to decide on this build or another if the Terran intentionally goes Supply Depot>Rax>Supply Depot before orbital or gas so as to prevent me from getting in?
Thanks very much, this is a problem that has been bugging me for a long time.
When doing the mandatory poke, what time do you need to be at their ramp to see the Marauder/3+marines/Bunker?
I normally scout on 11 to check gas first, then retreat probe and come back to their ramp by 4:15. Is that a good timing if I follow your scouting guideline? I worry if I come too early, then I wont see anything, or if I come too late and see like 5+marines but no bunker, then its hard to tell the difference between 2rax and 1-1-1.
On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote: I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!!
FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really.
On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote: I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!!
FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really.
You might also be surprised at how similar this build is to the build I posted a week after release.
My original build was zealot, stalker, stalker, nexus on 30, gateway, gateway, stalker, pylon, stalker with robo at ~35 supply. If pressure wasn't coming, I'd cut the 4th stalker and make 2 extra probes. In other words, the opening was essentially identical.
It's an old build. And I think it's a little too safe now that Blizzard has nerfed early-game Terran like 18 times.
On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote: I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!!
FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really.
You might also be surprised at how similar this build is to the build I posted a week after release.
My original build was zealot, stalker, stalker, nexus on 30, gateway, gateway, stalker, pylon, stalker with robo at ~35 supply. If pressure wasn't coming, I'd cut the 4th stalker and make 2 extra probes. In other words, the opening was essentially identical.
It's an old build. And I think it's a little too safe now that Blizzard has nerfed early-game Terran like 18 times.
Yup. Following the statistics on match length, Terran is now weaker in the very early game, far stronger in the midgame and then far weaker in the lategame, until they even out around the ~40 minute mark, where pretty much everything can happen.
Wow, was looking through my old thread. The following changes have buffed 1 gate FE since I originally posted it:
-nexus health increased (huge for 1-gate FE where you often let the nexus tank fire)
-depot before barracks (bye-bye cheese)
-stim research nerfed (made 3-rax a joke)
-repairing SCVs targeted by AI (made thor and BC rushes possible to defend)
-Medivac speed nerfed
-BF hellion damage nerfed (made zealots good vs hellions)
-tank damage nerfed (can you imagine marine tank pushes on Steppes of War with tanks doing 50 damage to zealots? I used to try to defend that all the time, sometimes successfully)
-barracks build time increased (only 5 seconds, but every bit helps)
-reaper build time increased and reaper speed effectively removed from game (new players: reapers used to actually be good vs P)
-battlecruiser damage cut by a third (there was a time when BC's had infinity DPS and repairing SCVs under the BC were invulnerable, so BC rushes actually hard countered 1 gate FE)
There's probably more that I can't think of right now. But it's crazy to think that the macro standard then is still the macro standard today. Of course, that build order used to be considered economically aggressive and maybe a bit risky, and now it's the super-safe macro build.
i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently-
goes, per standard ~29 nex gas 2 gates sentry pylon
then-- CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with 2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink
i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third
On April 19 2012 20:31 Alejandrisha wrote: i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently-
goes, per standard ~29 nex gas 2 gates sentry pylon
then-- CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with 2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink
i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third
On April 19 2012 20:31 Alejandrisha wrote: i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently-
goes, per standard ~29 nex gas 2 gates sentry pylon
then-- CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with 2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink
i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third
I believe he has been doing this for awhile. Minigun was executing almost exactly what you just said for a phase where he said on stream that he's been watching a lot of MC's games and mimicking his playstyle.
On April 20 2012 10:52 Marodox wrote: How do you hold a 4/5 rax rine scv all-in with this build?
When you scout him moving out wall off the top of your ramp with two gateways and a plyon, sac the nexus. If he's going up to 4-5 rax it should be an easy hold since when he hits you will have warpgates and a pretty high amount of stalkers.
Quite a vague post, you say you'll have enough units out by the time the 2 rax hits, but you don't say where to spend your chronos or what units to produce
A 2 rax will hit between 5:45 to 6mins, depending on map, spawn and opponent competency. Spend chronos up to 21 supply on Nexus, and then spend it ALL on stalkers up until 34 supply. You will have 1 zealot, 4 stalkers sitting at your natural (and hopefully natural ramp) when he pokes up. Target marauder, micro against marines. You should hold with ease.
Oh, and if you can gain sight with xel naga towers, if he's not moving out around 5:40, feel free to grab a robo before you put down your gates. Or second gas. Or anything greedy because he's not pushing you.
I believe MC has moved away from this build. This build delays sentries for quite a bit and may be vulnerable to a stim rush. There was a game, I forget where, but I think it was vs Polt, on TDA. Polt did a good job hiding marauders, skipped conc shells and went straight for stim. Then he just walked up to MC's base and destroyed him. Now MC gets earlier sentries.
I scout him seeing 1 rax no gas late enough to know there was no stim timing/111/other cheese comming good so I expect it to be 1 rax expo since he chase my probe away and put down a bunker at his natural, but what then happened surprised me. After my probe leaving he imidiatly throw down 2 more rax and pump marines to make a pretty sick attack at my expansion, all while taking his own expansion (he can do this since no gas). So I end up loosing my expand since I have to go up ramp and force field to keep him away (since that many marines are so imbalanced compared to how few units i have earlygame beause of 1gate expo)
After that I was soo faar behind that I lost when he just did a random a-move derpderp push with 1 attack and stim. I am rank 1 Diamond player and I really cant see how to beat this. It doesnt matter if I poke in and try and see his expansion time since terrans can just derp and build it on highground. Marines are so inzanely costeffective earlygame so its pretty much done deal for my expansion when he does that and I am allready commited for 1gate expansion - even if I hold xel'naga towers and see it comming I cant produce enough units in time to hold it.
What do I do? Btw the game was played on cloud kingdom. I might upload replay when I get home.
Please help from people whos master only since im rank 1 diamond myself xD
On June 25 2012 17:36 Chillypill wrote: I lost to terran doing this build.
I scout him seeing 1 rax no gas late enough to know there was no stim timing/111/other cheese comming good so I expect it to be 1 rax expo since he chase my probe away and put down a bunker at his natural, but what then happened surprised me. After my probe leaving he imidiatly throw down 2 more rax and pump marines to make a pretty sick attack at my expansion, all while taking his own expansion (he can do this since no gas). So I end up loosing my expand since I have to go up ramp and force field to keep him away (since that many marines are so imbalanced compared to how few units i have earlygame beause of 1gate expo)
After that I was soo faar behind that I lost when he just did a random a-move derpderp push with 1 attack and stim. I am rank 1 Diamond player and I really cant see how to beat this. It doesnt matter if I poke in and try and see his expansion time since terrans can just derp and build it on highground. Marines are so inzanely costeffective earlygame so its pretty much done deal for my expansion when he does that and I am allready commited for 1gate expansion - even if I hold xel'naga towers and see it comming I cant produce enough units in time to hold it.
What do I do? Btw the game was played on cloud kingdom. I might upload replay when I get home.
Please help from people whos master only since im rank 1 diamond myself xD
Looks like what MKP did once, bunker at nat, but no CC. I always try to verify that there is a CC there, even if it costs me a zealot or a stalker.
From my experience with this build at High Master level you can react in 2 ways to a 1 rax gasless expand, either transition into an all in or cut units. I like to do the latter. Just skip 1 or 2 Stalkers and get an earlier nexus, you should be able to prevent engineering bay block with the Zealot. Then just conteniue to CB out probes and you should be atleast equal on the eco.
I tend to lay out builds in excel when I first start drilling them in hopes to eventually commit them to memory, and I happen to have made a cheat sheet for this. Figured I'd put it here for anyone who is interested.