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On January 08 2012 17:09 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 17:03 Selendis wrote:On January 08 2012 16:27 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts? Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units. So, when should I cut probes then? 35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
ok, thank you very much for taking the time to look at the replay and thanks for the solid advice. 
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Awesome guide. Thanks a lot monk
Could you ( or another wise soul...) offer a plat noob some clarification on the differences of this vs KCDC's fe ?
TY
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Awesom. Thx a lot for this guide!
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Canada76 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:09 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 17:03 Selendis wrote:On January 08 2012 16:27 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts? Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units. So, when should I cut probes then? 35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc.
When do you start probe production again? and do you just have to let they expo go vs a 3 rax or can you even defend it?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:44 chambertin wrote:Awesome guide. Thanks a lot monk Could you ( or another wise soul...) offer a plat noob some clarification on the differences of this vs KCDC's fe ? TY
KCDC's gets about 2 probes ahead than this plus an earlier sentry. This one can defend pressures easier and doesn't require as much of a blind read for robo timing.
On January 12 2012 15:53 LeakyBucket wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 17:09 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 17:03 Selendis wrote:On January 08 2012 16:27 NrGmonk wrote:On January 08 2012 11:43 Selendis wrote:On January 07 2012 12:33 NrGmonk wrote:On January 07 2012 12:29 ZeromuS wrote:
Lately I've been getting hit with 3 rax and in one case 3 rax tech lab marauders. Doing this build which I am still working out to be executed perfectly (I'll be honest), I was wondering what to do if I am unable to scout 3 barracks but they attack me with 3 barracks worth of units anyway?
Is there something I can do to deal with this specifically? I guess chrono an immortal as soon as I see marauders? But in terms of warp ins is there something I should be focusing on? First warp in all stalker, first warp in all zealot? In general, versus no stim pushes, you'll want zealot/stalker, but versus stim pushes zealot/sentry is better. But yea basically scout it out as soon as you can and then focus on chronoing out immortals/zealot/sentry. That's really general though; I'd have to see the replay. Here's a replay: 1gatefevs3raxAnd yes my execution was terrible (I was tired) but then again so was my friend. I was playing against a friend last night and he 3 raxxed me. I was puzzled as to how it crushed me so hard, so I asked him to do it to me again. Even knowing it was coming was not enough. It was at the end of a long night of sc so we both left it there but I will be conducting a few more "tests". Tbh I am surprised terrans don't just blindly 3 rax with stim timing, it seems like the BO counter to 1 gate. thoughts? Weird 1 gate placement. You didn't really follow the build order. You made mass stalkers instead of the recommended zealot/sentry core versus stim pushes. Way too many probes. Too many assimilators. Not enough units. So, when should I cut probes then? 35 or less is a generally good number if you don't see a 2nd cc. When do you start probe production again? and do you just have to let they expo go vs a 3 rax or can you even defend it?
You start when you do see a 2nd cc. As long as they don't pull scvs, you can defend any 3 rax without giving up your expo. If they do, consider giving up your expansion.
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If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction?
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How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
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Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
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On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
scout his marine count maybe? watchtower control, probe around for proxys if you are really nervous
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On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
I've actually been hitting this a lot lately. If the bunker's actually complete, then I don't know what the proper handling of the situation would be. However, if I do scout this, and I can kill the SCV's, then proper stalker Micro will stop it cold. I have been pulling 3-4 probes to help kill the scvs, then return them to their mining duties once the bunker threat is over.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote:
If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction?
Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin.
On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote:
How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late?
It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold.
On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
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On January 19 2012 08:43 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote:
If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction? Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote:
How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late? It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold. Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas?
Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh?
It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE.
He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first?
I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind.
As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 19 2012 09:03 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 08:43 NrGmonk wrote:On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote:
If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction? Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin. On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote:
How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late? It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold. On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas? Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh? It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE. He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first? I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind.
Really depends on the game, but generally, you want to kite his marines/scvs with your stalker all the way back to your base. Personally, if I scouted that I would chorno out stalkers, kiting his incoming army while going 3 gate, but again really depends on the individual game.
As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too?
No, 2 rax and 3 rax should have different reactions. They will differ in what you see when you initially poke and the timing they leave with. Again, it really depends a lot on the individual game. A good general rule I use against bio play if you know it's either 2 or 3 rax is to make zealot/sentry if they haven't left their base yet, but zealot/stalker if they have. Zealot/sentry sets you up better for later pushes by building up sentry energy and it's necessary vs later stim pushes. Zealot/stalker is best in a direct engagement against small numbers of bio when you don't already have sentries.
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On January 19 2012 09:23 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 09:03 bankai wrote:On January 19 2012 08:43 NrGmonk wrote:On January 12 2012 22:08 Strivers wrote:
If you see no gas 2 rax what's the best reaction? Don't use this build and prepare for an scv marine allin. On January 18 2012 11:02 bankai wrote:
How do you scout 3rax vs 2rax? Do you wait for the robo (as per OP Scenario 1) and get an obs or is that too late? It's too late to wait for the obs. You can't really scout the difference between these 2 until units start streaming out of your opponent's base. Then, you can make a good guess based on the number of units and the timing. Either way, you should be able to hold. On January 18 2012 19:19 bankai wrote:
Another question - how do you stop a 2rax bunker rush with this 1GFE?
Gotta be more clear. What kind of 2 rax? Reactor/tech lab? Tech lab/naked? Tech lab/reactor? no gas? 2 rax into gas? Sorry Monk, I probably should have been more clear huh? It was 2 rax, 1 was proxied (somewhere outside his base). So when I did my 11-supply probe scout on Shattered Temple, I scouted his base seeing 1rax building and no gas. I thought it was a gasless expand so thought it was safe to go 1GateFE. He brought 3-4marines and 3scvs, against my zealot/stalker. I suppose as turamn has suggested, I should just pull some probes and kill the scvs first? I banked up lots of minerals (cos i was planning to 1GFE) so on seeing hte bunker rush, I transitioned into 3GateRobo (albeit late), and waited for an immortal, 3zealots/3stalkers before I pushed out against his 2bunkers. Meanwhile, he already expanded behind this and I was behind. Really depends on the game, but generally, you want to kite his marines/scvs with your stalker all the way back to your base. Personally, if I scouted that I would chorno out stalkers, kiting his incoming army while going 3 gate, but again really depends on the individual game. Show nested quote +As for the 3rax vs 2rax, are you saying the same reaction for 2rax will hold the 3rax? Won't the 3rax have more units, but come later too? No, 2 rax and 3 rax should have different reactions. They will differ in what you see when you initially poke and the timing they leave with. Again, it really depends a lot on the individual game. A good general rule I use against bio play if you know it's either 2 or 3 rax is to make zealot/sentry if they haven't left their base yet, but zealot/stalker if they have. Zealot/sentry sets you up better for later pushes by building up sentry energy and it's necessary vs later stim pushes. Zealot/stalker is best in a direct engagement against small numbers of bio when you don't already have sentries.
Ok great thanks once again!
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Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately.
There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder.
Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it.
http://drop.sc/95073
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United States8477 Posts
On January 20 2012 07:02 charliexjustice wrote:Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately. There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder. Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it. http://drop.sc/95073
- You cut probes a bit too much as he is threatening you. A 2-3 rax tech lab opening doesn't pressure that much that early as compared to a reactor first 2 rax.
- You don't have good scouting after you nexus goes down. You should have a probe on the map scouting for whether he has an expansion or not. The rest of your mistakes come from the fact that you play too greedy, because you don't know this information.
- You get your 3rd and 4th gas without knowing if he is on 1 or 2 base.
- You don't keep your macro up on your gates. It's very important to constantly produce out of those against a push like this.
- You get 2 observers on your robo. If you invest in a robo, you almost need to get an immortal to hold a push like this. At the very least, go obs, immortal, but I personally suggest immortal first if you see bio pressure without a hint of an expansion.
- Not enough sentries, no guardian shield. Against a stim push, you really want 3-4 sentries at that point, while you only had 2 with low energy.
So in summary, from the first 2 points, you should play more greedy until about 30 seconds after your nexus finishes, then scout and play less greedy reactively as a result of that scouting information. If you follow all of that, you'll have something like 2 more zealots, 1 more sentry, and 1 more immortal, more than enough to hold that push. You'll also have around the same number of probes, but 2 less geysers, and one less observer.
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On January 20 2012 08:03 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2012 07:02 charliexjustice wrote:Diamond Protoss here, having a tough time getting this opener to work lately. There is a 3 rax (2 tech lab, 1 naked) push that I cannot scout and is very hard to defend with GW units I keep running into on ladder. Here is an example replay, i scouted a marauder and 2 marines and reacted according to this guide, almost exactly following the instructions, but the pressure does a ton of damage (15 probes), and it seems that I am behind the rest of the game. I lost for many reasons but my main concern here is early game if any masters + protosses want to tell me what I did wrong there I'd appreciate it. http://drop.sc/95073 - You cut probes a bit too much as he is threatening you. A 2-3 rax tech lab opening doesn't pressure that much that early as compared to a reactor first 2 rax.
- You don't have good scouting after you nexus goes down. You should have a probe on the map scouting for whether he has an expansion or not. The rest of your mistakes come from the fact that you play too greedy, because you don't know this information.
- You get your 3rd and 4th gas without knowing if he is on 1 or 2 base.
- You don't keep your macro up on your gates. It's very important to constantly produce out of those against a push like this.
- You get 2 observers on your robo. If you invest in a robo, you almost need to get an immortal to hold a push like this. At the very least, go obs, immortal, but I personally suggest immortal first if you see bio pressure without a hint of an expansion.
- Not enough sentries, no guardian shield. Against a stim push, you really want 3-4 sentries at that point, while you only had 2 with low energy.
So in summary, from the first 2 points, you should play more greedy until about 30 seconds after your nexus finishes, then scout and play less greedy reactively as a result of that scouting information. If you follow all of that, you'll have something like 2 more zealots, 1 more sentry, and 1 more immortal, more than enough to hold that push. You'll also have around the same number of probes, but 2 less geysers, and one less observer.
Thank you very much.
My probe frequently dies in the poke, especially against concussive marauders. Should I just send another probe? Is this probe mostly looking for expansions? How can I even know when Terran expos inside their own base, and has marines/marauders posted outside like in that replay?
I recalled from another guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549) that I should get 3rd and 4th gas around 7:40, which I did. Is my obs supposed to be there by then, or is my probe scout supposed to find out if there is an expo?
If I see a marauder or marine group (implying bio pressure) should I skip the first two obs and go straight for immortal?
I must have totally misread your guides. They seemed to be working so well for me until recently 
Artosis said on the GSL the other night that genius style is THE pvt style we should all be practicing, so I'm determined to make this work.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 20 2012 08:57 charliexjustice wrote:Thank you very much. My probe frequently dies in the poke, especially against concussive marauders. Should I just send another probe? Is this probe mostly looking for expansions? How can I even know when Terran expos inside their own base, and has marines/marauders posted outside like in that replay? Yes, send another probe, mostly to look for expansions. You can't know if he expanded in his base until your obs gets to his base.I recalled from another guide (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549) that I should get 3rd and 4th gas around 7:40, which I did. Is my obs supposed to be there by then, or is my probe scout supposed to find out if there is an expo? That's assuming you know your opponent has expanded. In addition, 7:40 is assuming you're not being pressured at all when your opponent is on 2 bases.If I see a marauder or marine group (implying bio pressure) should I skip the first two obs and go straight for immortal? No, not always. It depends on the specific game.I must have totally misread your guides. They seemed to be working so well for me until recently Artosis said on the GSL the other night that genius style is THE pvt style we should all be practicing, so I'm determined to make this work. You shouldn't listen to artosis blindly. The creator style is close to what Genius did in that game, but not exactly.
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Thank you very much for your replies.
What is the latest the obs should be getting to Terran's base, assuming no crazy all in or something? Like vs standard pressure?
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Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in.
2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on
1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand.
2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream)
if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
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EPT
