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On February 21 2012 23:24 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 21:51 iNbluE wrote:On February 11 2012 05:20 NrGmonk wrote:On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off. You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot. If you're having problems, post a replay. You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right? No 4 stalkers. You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo. After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not
Interesting... Because, yeah, I lose to 2 rax sometimes :/
Will try for sure now. Can somebody tell me what clues indicate a 2 rax pressure when scouting? Cheers 
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United States8477 Posts
On February 22 2012 02:11 iNbluE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2012 23:24 ZeromuS wrote:On February 21 2012 21:51 iNbluE wrote:On February 11 2012 05:20 NrGmonk wrote:On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off. You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot. If you're having problems, post a replay. You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right? No 4 stalkers. You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo. After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not Interesting... Because, yeah, I lose to 2 rax sometimes :/ Will try for sure now. Can somebody tell me what clues indicate a 2 rax pressure when scouting? Cheers
It's in the guide.
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What's the most ideal way to decide on this build or another if the Terran intentionally goes Supply Depot>Rax>Supply Depot before orbital or gas so as to prevent me from getting in?
Thanks very much, this is a problem that has been bugging me for a long time.
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When doing the mandatory poke, what time do you need to be at their ramp to see the Marauder/3+marines/Bunker?
I normally scout on 11 to check gas first, then retreat probe and come back to their ramp by 4:15. Is that a good timing if I follow your scouting guideline? I worry if I come too early, then I wont see anything, or if I come too late and see like 5+marines but no bunker, then its hard to tell the difference between 2rax and 1-1-1.
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2nd supply depot before gas or 2nd rax means he can't 2-rax or at least can't 2-rax nearly as effectively.
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I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!!
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On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote:
I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!!
FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really.
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On March 02 2012 09:35 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote:
I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!! FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really.
You might also be surprised at how similar this build is to the build I posted a week after release.
My original build was zealot, stalker, stalker, nexus on 30, gateway, gateway, stalker, pylon, stalker with robo at ~35 supply. If pressure wasn't coming, I'd cut the 4th stalker and make 2 extra probes. In other words, the opening was essentially identical.
It's an old build. And I think it's a little too safe now that Blizzard has nerfed early-game Terran like 18 times.
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On March 10 2012 02:31 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 09:35 vaderseven wrote:On March 02 2012 09:06 punk44244 wrote:
I know this is a rather old post but it has really helped me to polish my 1 gate FE. Thanks to whoever made this!!! FYI, this 1 gate FE, as long as the Terran is grabbing a gas, is still the standard of the matchup. To call it old is just really a compliment to MC. This build was his gift to the protoss race really. You might also be surprised at how similar this build is to the build I posted a week after release. My original build was zealot, stalker, stalker, nexus on 30, gateway, gateway, stalker, pylon, stalker with robo at ~35 supply. If pressure wasn't coming, I'd cut the 4th stalker and make 2 extra probes. In other words, the opening was essentially identical. It's an old build. And I think it's a little too safe now that Blizzard has nerfed early-game Terran like 18 times.
Yup. Following the statistics on match length, Terran is now weaker in the very early game, far stronger in the midgame and then far weaker in the lategame, until they even out around the ~40 minute mark, where pretty much everything can happen.
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Wow, was looking through my old thread. The following changes have buffed 1 gate FE since I originally posted it:
-nexus health increased (huge for 1-gate FE where you often let the nexus tank fire)
-depot before barracks (bye-bye cheese)
-stim research nerfed (made 3-rax a joke)
-repairing SCVs targeted by AI (made thor and BC rushes possible to defend)
-Medivac speed nerfed
-BF hellion damage nerfed (made zealots good vs hellions)
-tank damage nerfed (can you imagine marine tank pushes on Steppes of War with tanks doing 50 damage to zealots? I used to try to defend that all the time, sometimes successfully)
-barracks build time increased (only 5 seconds, but every bit helps)
-reaper build time increased and reaper speed effectively removed from game (new players: reapers used to actually be good vs P)
-battlecruiser damage cut by a third (there was a time when BC's had infinity DPS and repairing SCVs under the BC were invulnerable, so BC rushes actually hard countered 1 gate FE)
There's probably more that I can't think of right now. But it's crazy to think that the macro standard then is still the macro standard today. Of course, that build order used to be considered economically aggressive and maybe a bit risky, and now it's the super-safe macro build.
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IS IT ME OR DID IMMVP HAVE 5 SCVS ON 1 GAS FOR LIKE 5 MINUTES???
WTF???
User was warned for this post
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very well written up guide.
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i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently-
goes, per standard
~29 nex
gas
2 gates
sentry
pylon
then--
CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with
2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink
i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third
really strong style! here are some examples
http://drop.sc/163518
http://drop.sc/163519
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How do you hold a 4/5 rax rine scv all-in with this build?
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On April 19 2012 20:31 Alejandrisha wrote:i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently- goes, per standard ~29 nex gas 2 gates sentry pylon then-- CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with 2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third really strong style! here are some examples http://drop.sc/163518http://drop.sc/163519
I think this was mentioned in iamke's thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133
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On April 19 2012 20:31 Alejandrisha wrote:i think something mc has been doing that is really cool and needs to be looked at a LOT -- unless he has been doing this forever and I just realized it recently- goes, per standard ~29 nex gas 2 gates sentry pylon then-- CB only probes, and proxies a pylon, warps in THREE sentries (this is ESSENTIAL. you will have 1 GS and the perfect amount of forcefields for your little poke), sometimes a 4th sentry but not always, and then a round or 2 of zealots and hits with 2 stalker 4-5 sentries 4-5 zealots at a very odd timing for T and it will do damage unless he has more than 3 rax or has pulled scvs ahead of time. from here, he'll either take a 3rd and go up to 8 gates and blink or transition into his typical 2 colossus push, with or without +1/+1 or blink i prefer to go robo into double forge and going up to 5-6 gates depending on how quickly i can take a third really strong style! here are some examples http://drop.sc/163518http://drop.sc/163519
I believe he has been doing this for awhile. Minigun was executing almost exactly what you just said for a phase where he said on stream that he's been watching a lot of MC's games and mimicking his playstyle.
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Italy12247 Posts
On April 20 2012 10:52 Marodox wrote:
How do you hold a 4/5 rax rine scv all-in with this build?
When you scout him moving out wall off the top of your ramp with two gateways and a plyon, sac the nexus. If he's going up to 4-5 rax it should be an easy hold since when he hits you will have warpgates and a pretty high amount of stalkers.
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Quite a vague post, you say you'll have enough units out by the time the 2 rax hits, but you don't say where to spend your chronos or what units to produce
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A 2 rax will hit between 5:45 to 6mins, depending on map, spawn and opponent competency. Spend chronos up to 21 supply on Nexus, and then spend it ALL on stalkers up until 34 supply. You will have 1 zealot, 4 stalkers sitting at your natural (and hopefully natural ramp) when he pokes up. Target marauder, micro against marines. You should hold with ease.
Oh, and if you can gain sight with xel naga towers, if he's not moving out around 5:40, feel free to grab a robo before you put down your gates. Or second gas. Or anything greedy because he's not pushing you.
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EPT
