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On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote:
Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in.
2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on
1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand.
2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream)
if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
These are awesome questions, I will be checking back to see what monk has to say.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote:
Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in.
2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on
1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand.
2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream)
if possible.
Thank you. Cheers
1. No chronoboost on warpgates. Instead, I always use the chronoboost on either units from my first gateway or probes/observer depending on the situation.
2. Warp in 3 stalkers. Focus the marauders as long as they're not too far back. Then, you can kite the marines with your stalkers after your zealot dies. You can ideally have 1 zealot and 4 stalkers before you warp anything in. Engage based on judgment, but generally as early as possible to prevent bunkers from going up.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2012 19:58 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2012 00:57 covetousrat wrote:
Sup Monk,
Im GM on SEA and 2 Rax Reactor Tech Lab is very very common with around 3 SCVs that hits around 6.00+
1. Do you Chrono Boost your Warp Gate Research? If not I assume those Chrono goes to Gates after your warp in.
2. Assume you have 1 Zealot 3 Stalkers. What units do you Warp in and what to focus? I assume 3 Stalkers? Do you engage after 3 stalkers or wait for another warp in with Chrono?
Your guides are awesome. In the near future I wish to request on
1. MC- 6 Gate all in vs Gasless fast expand.
2. Fast 3rd base without robo (saw on MC's stream)
if possible.
Thank you. Cheers 1. No chronoboost on warpgates. Instead, I always use the chronoboost on either units from my first gateway or probes/observer depending on the situation. 2. Warp in 3 stalkers. Focus the marauders as long as they're not too far back. Then, you can kite the marines with your stalkers after your zealot dies. You can ideally have 1 zealot and 4 stalkers before you warp anything in. Engage based on judgment, but generally as early as possible to prevent bunkers from going up.
In a theorycrafty way, 5 stalker 2 zeal could be good too, as 5 stalkers is the magic number to 2-shot marauders and 1-shot marines.
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Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
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On January 24 2012 22:52 chestnutcc wrote:
Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
Would be helpful if you could post the replay of that game, it will make it easier for people to help you. From what you said though I think you built too many stalkers, I think your frist warp-in should be zeal/sentry unless the terran is literally shooting down your nexus, and also pretty much zeal/sentry until about 9:00/9:30 when drops start happening. But yeah I think you may have invested too much in stalker before you knew what he was doing, remember stalkers are terrible fighting units.
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I didn't post a replay because I wasn't following the build here, it just crossed my mind that the push mentioned would be more problematic for this build. You are right in that I reacted sub optimally, getting partially supply blocked when he targeted down my forward pylon and then fumbling with the gas timings, but I wanted to hear a more thought out response in this contingency so I wouldn't have to improvise as much. I don't think early stalkers are bad vs a 2 rax though, but they do hurt vs a 3 rax.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 24 2012 22:52 chestnutcc wrote:
Monk: I recently faced an opponent who three raxed me with 2 techlabs and 1 reactor. He went v heavy on marauders, 4 or so by the 6 min mark, with a scattering of marines. I wasn't exactly playing the build posted here at the time, instead opting for a Naniwa's 3 gate pressure style, but I found it v difficult to hold the push, since he could kite any zealots I made and the slow increment to the marauder numbers means the initial six or so stalkers I had couldn't do much. I lost the game, and ended up wishing I had more sentries, but when FE'ing off 1 gas and unable to tell whether its a 2 or 3 rax, the stalkers really cut into sentry production. Since I had an earlier warp gate than this build, I don't see how one can have enough gas to get out the sentries required to hold such a push. What advice do you have on gas timings and handling situations where one is unsure about whether its a 2 or 3 rax, since I find holding 2 rax pressure is quite straightforward with the composition outlined here, but anything more than 3 marauders really seems to require an earlier sentry.
Yea, you really do need a replay. Generally, you can get clues about whether it's 2 or 3 rax based on the timing he pushes out and the unit composition he pushes out with. A good general rule is that if you don't feel threatened by his army or he hasn't pushed out yet, make sentries instead of stalkers.
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why is this 1. Zealot needed? I don't see where u need him since stalkers are defense enough..
without zealot, one could expand faster?
cheers
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Canada13406 Posts
On January 30 2012 00:41 Yuffie wrote:
why is this 1. Zealot needed? I don't see where u need him since stalkers are defense enough..
without zealot, one could expand faster?
cheers
The zealot forces the terran to micro his units as opposed to just attacking the stalkers. Also, the zealot is extra dps if they micro poorly. If you focus the marauder with the zealot then its entirely possible that the marauder starts to run away if they have bad micro then you can micro vs the marines with the stalkers really easily.
EDIT: this response is made assuming the other person is doing a 2 rax so if you scout no gas you can skip the zealot
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You can skip the Zealot if the Terran is going Gasless expand. The Zealot is to deal with Maruaders.
Thanks for you advice. I'll try it.
Cheers
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Love the build, pretty much my standard on most maps now. That marine tank push though... I am just terrible at holding. Any tips on unit composition? Usually against gas/naxed rax openings that look like marine tank/1-1-1. I'll go up to 3-4 stalkers and 1-2 sentries with the rest going into zealots and immortals once my observers are out.
I think perhaps in order to defend you really need to be kiting his marine tank across the map with at least 3-4 stalkers, because that army is huge, its nice if I could feel the push coming earlier through some lucky scouting so I can keep my stalkers in front of his base instead of in my mineral line ready for banshees.
Do you guys generally stay on 3gate 1robo here, or do you do up to 4gate? As well I won't spend my chronoboost on probes until I can get an obs in his base. It's not ideal against 1-1-1 but I think it helps me cut probes to deal with this push.
I think I'll try to find a practice partner to run this push on me a bunch of times. I'll report any findings.
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Canada13406 Posts
On January 30 2012 01:56 covetousrat wrote:
You can skip the Zealot if the Terran is going Gasless expand. The Zealot is to deal with Maruaders.
Thanks for you advice. I'll try it.
Cheers
I prob should have clarified that it was useful against 2 rax, i just assumed that was the case 
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can you actualy explain how to transition into colossi or ht play ? thanks
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United States8476 Posts
On January 30 2012 00:41 Yuffie wrote:
why is this 1. Zealot needed? I don't see where u need him since stalkers are defense enough..
without zealot, one could expand faster?
cheers
You need a zealot to stop any marauder based attacks and for the scouting poke.
On January 30 2012 02:43 RealAnalysis wrote:
Love the build, pretty much my standard on most maps now. That marine tank push though... I am just terrible at holding. Any tips on unit composition? Usually against gas/naxed rax openings that look like marine tank/1-1-1. I'll go up to 3-4 stalkers and 1-2 sentries with the rest going into zealots and immortals once my observers are out.
I think perhaps in order to defend you really need to be kiting his marine tank across the map with at least 3-4 stalkers, because that army is huge, its nice if I could feel the push coming earlier through some lucky scouting so I can keep my stalkers in front of his base instead of in my mineral line ready for banshees.
Do you guys generally stay on 3gate 1robo here, or do you do up to 4gate? As well I won't spend my chronoboost on probes until I can get an obs in his base. It's not ideal against 1-1-1 but I think it helps me cut probes to deal with this push.
I think I'll try to find a practice partner to run this push on me a bunch of times. I'll report any findings.
You can't really kite across the whole map, because you need to keep your stalkers at home in case of banshee/hellions/drops.
You can't really go up to 4 gates, because the 4th gate won't kick in in time. For reference, a standard push hits at 7:20. It's impossible to obs scout this in time, so the earliest possible time you can scout it reliably is when he leaves his base with all his units. This only gives you ~30 seconds for you to reactively build a gateway.
Best advice for unit comp is all zealots/1 immortal/~2 sentries/spare stalkers by the time this push hits.
On January 30 2012 05:06 xsnac wrote:
can you actualy explain how to transition into colossi or ht play ? thanks
Don't know what you want me to say. Build a robo bay? Build twilight then templar archives? Would take forever if I had to detail it out <.<.
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On January 30 2012 05:06 xsnac wrote:
can you actualy explain how to transition into colossi or ht play ? thanks
well you have 3gate robo... just throw up a colossus den when you want colossi? depending on how early you want it and how many sentries you like to get it'll affect the timings of your 3rd and 4th gas... not sure what kind of a response you were looking for exactly
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United States8476 Posts
On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot.
If you're having problems, post a replay.
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On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off.
-If you think your Nexus can survive until your first warp-in then yes let it tank damage
-Composition wise you should not need more than 5 Stalkers. 5 Stalkers kill marauders in 2-volleys and marines in 1 volley. Make enough Zealots to tank for your stalkers, and you do not want to make any Sentries when trying to defend your natural expand vs. a 2-rax.
-I would suggest your learn how to scout to acquire the game sense needed to discern if there is a 2-rax coming, rather than always just plan for a 2-rax as this will simply make you a better player in the long run. A 30 Nexus is already quite far behind economically from a 1-rax FE, and needlessly cutting Probes longer than you have to is not something you should be doing.
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On February 11 2012 05:20 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off. You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot. If you're having problems, post a replay.
You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
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Canada13406 Posts
On February 21 2012 21:51 iNbluE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 05:20 NrGmonk wrote:On February 10 2012 20:49 Sated wrote:
I'm having problems against the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build when trying to use this opening. I have 5 Stalkers and a Zealot at the time that pressure hits, with Warpgates and additional Gateways just about to finish (30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo). Should I be staying up my ramp and letting the Nexus tank damage until I get an additional warp-in (I always worry that they're going to snipe my Nexus) or should I be trying to engage as soon as I see the attack coming? Also, what should my first warp-in be against this type of pressure: Zealots, Sentries or Stalkers?
In a more general sense, I kinda feel that the 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab build is the only standard pressure you've listed that can threaten this build. A 111 doesn't come early enough to cancel your expansion, you just need an Observer in time for Cloaked Banshees, and the other Barracks-based pressures will be fended off easily if you prepare for a 2rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure. It just seems like a massive risk to do anything other than 30 Nexus, 30 Stalker, 32 2xGateway, 32 Stalker, 34 Robo, so could you explain a bit more why I should bother thinking about using the other builds mentioned? If the other builds are only there to cut corners and grab a minor advantage then I don't think they're required; the advantage gained will be really small relative to the risk involved, especially since Terran can hide units/buildings/gas so easily thanks to their early wall-off. You should generally engage as soon as possible, except when your warpgates are just about to finish. If that happens, you can wait for a warpin of 3 units. This 1 gate FE is special in that the army you have with this build will always beat a 2 rax army at any time without scvs if you directly engage at your natural. If he pulls scvs, you can pull probes yourself. You say you have 5 stalkres and a zealot, but with this build you should have 4 stalkers and a zealot before the warpin unless you somehow deduce it's 100% 2 rax beforehand; I'm confused about that. Warp in a combination of zealots and stalkers with your first warpin. I either like 6stalker/1zealot or 5 stalker/2 zealot. If you're having problems, post a replay. You mean three stalkers and a zealot before the first warp in right?
No 4 stalkers.
You get one zealot then 2 stalkers from the first gate before expo.
After expo if you suspect 2 rax: Stalker (chrono), 2 gates, pylon, stalker (chrono) gas then robo
Total 4 stalkers, one zealot before warp in. Missing that 4th stalker can and has lost me games in the past. It makes a huge difference believe it or not
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EPT
