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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:18 NrGmonk wrote: I don't see why you can't use it on close pos metal. I am sure it is possible, but I need some more distance while I get used to the build. This was a heavy maruader build and I botched some mico and lost a stalker. I don't have a huge amount of "game time" and hashing out a thin build is something I want to ease into. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:29 Plansix wrote: I am sure it is possible, but I need some more distance while I get used to the build. This was a heavy maruader build and I botched some mico and lost a stalker. I don't have a huge amount of "game time" and hashing out a thin build is something I want to ease into. Play however you think is fun, but this opening is nice in that it works on every position of every map, and using just 1 build every game for a MU might help you improve more quickly because you can focus on doing 1 style well. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:07 unit wrote: is there a guide on coL.rsvp's PvZ (similarly to slayer's brown PvZ) i cant seem to find replays of him to figure out what he does, but i keep hearing about his amazing PvZ How is this relevant? | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
its not really, just asking you to add that into your future to do list, that said, this opening is good though i do prefer kcdc's 1stalker 1zealot 1gate nexus build | ||
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Pawsom
United States928 Posts
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
1. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal. 2. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers? 3. Also, why is it necessary to sack the probe? The only way your poking units could die is if he has conc shells finished. You can gleam this information before the poke by either checking his rax between 3:20-4:00 (first marine comes out at 3:10 so first add-on will go down and there will be no other unit to kill the probe. However, If he doesn't have a wall off and you couldn't scout add-on then I agree suiciding would be the best option. Any particular reason why? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim". But on to the games. 1 Gate FE vs 3 rax, close positions I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard. Tanks and marines vs 1 gate FE I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
1. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal. I put the stalker half a step in front because it has bigger shield pool. If there's a depot wall with a few marines behind it, I immediately pull the stalker back so that the zealot starts tanking the damage, and then send the stalker up again to shoot at the marines. 2. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers? Straight to the base. You can fire at the SCV if you see it, but waiting too long will necessitate a probe sac even if you know T made a second marine. 3. Also, why is it necessary to sack the probe? The only way your poking units could die is if he has conc shells finished. You can gleam this information before the poke by either checking his rax between 3:20-4:00 (first marine comes out at 3:10 so first add-on will go down and there will be no other unit to kill the probe. However, If he doesn't have a wall off and you couldn't scout add-on then I agree suiciding would be the best option. Any particular reason why? You don't need to sac a probe if you see a fast second marine or see the first rax naked or with a reactor. Letting you have this info is a small screw-up on the Terran's part, but a lot of times it happens. Don't sac a probe if you know the poke is safe. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
Also, Monk I noticed a few typos in the guide, they are both in the Scenario 2 section: 1. you say to get second gas on 32. However, this is after the queue of the 32 stalker, this would bring your supply up to 34, not 32. 2. You conclude it saying as long as you macro properly? Is that supposed to be micro? The only way macro can make a difference in whether you hold the push would be if you didn't get your gates out in time/ didnt get the third stalker out. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 12:14 Plansix wrote: Ok, some rough points with this build today. I am looking for some pointers on how to smooth it out. Replays below: Disclaimer: I am very sad at the end of both of these matches. I had worked a nearly 13 hour work day and was getting in my 4 or so games before bed. Also, I have been all-ined by every terran I have played against this week, to be very frank, I am god damn tired if it. I have totally pleasant games against protoss and zerg, but every terran seems to 1 base me. I know it is part of learning, but it is frustrating to be trying something hard and lose to something like "I cross map, A-move and press the stim". But on to the games. 1 Gate FE vs 3 rax, close positions I was really reluctant to try this when I saw the position of the terran, but decided to live and learn. I knew the stim push was coming, but got caught off guard and I am not sure if I had been on top of it if I could have come out on top. Really, I have no clue what the correct response is when they come at you this hard. Tanks and marines vs 1 gate FE I botched this one when his army came in. I likely should have pulled back, let the nexus tank for a bit and gotten some more boots on the ground. Also, I think I went double forge to early, since I was not sure he expanded. First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad. 2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base. So just macro better. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 12:33 Easytouch1500 wrote: alright thanks! Also, Monk I noticed a few typos in the guide, they are both in the Scenario 2 section: 1. you say to get second gas on 32. However, this is after the queue of the 32 stalker, this would bring your supply up to 34, not 32. 2. You conclude it saying as long as you macro properly? Is that supposed to be micro? The only way macro can make a difference in whether you hold the push would be if you didn't get your gates out in time/ didnt get the third stalker out. 1. Yea, good catch. 2. Yea, I mean macro, exactly how you described it. I just meant that it's really easy to hold 2 rax with this build. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:28 NrGmonk wrote: First game, you lost 100% due to your terrible macro. You did the build order improperly, but that really didn't matter as your macro was just bad. 2nd game your macro was REALLY bad again. You delay your 3rd gateway and robo WAY too late. In fact your robo is over a minute late. You don't scout well either with a unit outside his base or a fast observer so you make way too many probes. Your unit composition is too stalker heavy, need around 2 sentries, w/e stalkers you need to make to be safe from other builds, and rest all zealot/immortal. You should never double forge unless you know he's not on 1 base. So just macro better. All right, not the most helpful tips I have gotten on the first game, since it most amounts to "be better at starcraft 2". Clearly I need to just build more stuff in general, fewer probes and fewer stalkers. I will try to get the robo earlier and default to that if I don't get a clear read on the scout. I will dive into the replays tomorrow and see if I can learn something more from them. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:40 Plansix wrote: All right, not the most helpful tips I have gotten on the first game, since it most amounts to "be better at starcraft 2". Clearly I need to just build more stuff in general, fewer probes and fewer stalkers. I will try to get the robo earlier and default to that if I don't get a clear read on the scout. I will dive into the replays tomorrow and see if I can learn something more from them. The truth of the matter is that no decision making or scouting in the world would have saved you in the first game if you can't significantly macro better. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 15 2011 13:45 NrGmonk wrote: The truth of the matter is that no decision making or scouting in the world would have saved you in the first game if you can't significantly macro better. Well it is clear I have a lot to work on then. For future reference, people who ask for advice in your thread rarely enjoy being called "terrible". Regardless of how bad their play is, they took the time to read your thread and thought the build you suggested was worth their time. There are more constructive ways to inform a player of the weakness in their play without insulting it and them by extension. I appreciate you taking the time to watch the replays. Thanks for the help. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 14:04 Easytouch1500 wrote: Hmm, monk. You say to get the core at 17, do you cut probes at 17 for a short while to get the core right when the gate finishes? I looked at the replay from the MVP game and it looked like MC got his core at 18. He chose not to ever stop probe production and got core a bit after gate finished on 18. Do I just need to mineral stack better? I consider my mineral stacking pretty good and could never get my core out on 17 without a probe cut even on maps like xel'naga. You're probably right that it's 18. I think I got the exact build off of a combination of games, one where MC just happened to go 12 gate 17 core. 17/18 core doesn't matter much though. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
In the case of an 18 core you get your core out at around 2:45. With a 50 second build time on core and then 160 WG time you will usually get WG done at 6:15- 6:20. From my testings if you go 3rd stalker before gates, like in scenario two, you can still get your gateways done by the end of warpgate research. Thus you can squeeze an extra stalker out before warpgate. Why then would you not want to get this 3rd stalker out before Warpgate just to be extra safe at no real expense other than a slightly longer probe cut and slightly later gas. Is that the only reason? | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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