EPT[G] PvT: MC's 1 gate FE - Page 5
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
If T makes a second marine, your zealot stalker poke will arrive before conc shell can finish on normal size maps assuming your build is on time and you send your stalker straight there. But you need to actually see the second marine--if he queues it up for your probe and then cancels after you leave, he can have conc shell in time to kill your units. If you don't see a second marine, you can't know that the poke is safe, so you need to sac a probe up the ramp right before sending your zealot+stalker. The zealot+stalker will usually get the same information that your probe sac got, but sometime it will force T to bring more of his units to the ramp where you can see them. I skip this poke with my preferred 1 gate FE because I make less units and I need to keep the units I have back to defend reapers or sneaky bunkers, but Monk is right that it can give you a lot of useful information. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On December 13 2011 20:47 TheDwf wrote: Nvm, wrong thread Well, since I misposted, might as well answer to someone : No, 12/16 is 2 rax, the 12 one with Reactor after the first Marine, the 16 one with Lab (usually with Concussive Shells upgrade first). idk if 12/16 is 'cheese' but if you expand behind it with constant unit production it, the cc goes down much later than a 12/17 tech lab first standard/safe 2 rax fe in tvp. if you want to know something about 12/16, watch rainbow play ladder. it's like the only effing build he does :p when i use this 30 nex opening and see no depot or a rax on 16 pretty clearly i go into 2 gates after nexus and skip the robo for a sec to prepare for 12/16 only thing is people are opening 12/16 into whatever the hell they want right now.. banshee or hellion drop or tank push. really annoying. so you really have to poke after your initial scout is what i'm saying :p | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 14 2011 05:42 Alejandrisha wrote: idk if 12/16 is 'cheese' but if you expand behind it with constant unit production it, the cc goes down much later than a 12/17 tech lab first standard/safe 2 rax fe in tvp. if you want to know something about 12/16, watch rainbow play ladder. it's like the only effing build he does :p oh, you don't say he has stopped doing 111 each and every TvP  when i use this 30 nex opening and see no depot or a rax on 16 pretty clearly i go into 2 gates after nexus and skip the robo for a sec to prepare for 12/16 only thing is people are opening 12/16 into whatever the hell they want right now.. banshee or hellion drop or tank push. really annoying. so you really have to poke after your initial scout is what i'm saying :p yup, I really feel like we are spinning in a huge metagame-circle that isn't likely to stop any time soon (as it did in BW) - after nearly one and a half year you would expect AT LEAST the early game to "somewhat" stabilze... | ||
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charliexjustice
United States42 Posts
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cmen15
United States1519 Posts
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
Is it advisable to push T's ramp with 6 stalkers and a zealot if you dont see a push coming within 7 minutes or so? (MC demonstrates such a 6 gate attack against the 1/1/1 in a video, albeit without a robo) | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries) | ||
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes? I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries) Against a build like that you're going to want to add on a faster 4th and 5th gate whilst delaying your robotics. Get just enough sentries for g shield plus a few blocking force fields and then a ton of zealots and stalkers. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes? I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries) The quickest version of that would be the power build off a gasless fe, and if you scout that, you go nexus first or coreless expo. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:44 Tazerenix wrote: Against a build like that you're going to want to add on a faster 4th and 5th gate whilst delaying your robotics. Get just enough sentries for g shield plus a few blocking force fields and then a ton of zealots and stalkers. My question still needs an answer. What I feel lacking in your response is that you won't see past the natural bunker until obs which you need from your Robo. However, you are correct in the extra gates, which you lay down depending on obs scout. Which may or may not be functional by the time the push comes (hence still need an answer). Thanks. | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:39 Tazerenix wrote: Interesting thought guys. I just played this build on korea and came up against a meching terran player (I know right what the fuck). As I did the push up the ramp with 2 stalkers, a zealot and a probe I came upon a bunker with 2 marines in it and 2 hellions. Intuitively I decided to just get a fast robo but what decision would you guys make? Which build would you follow if you came upon hellions when scouting the terrans front door? Some hellions doesn't mean he is committed to mech. From the poke it seems like a reactor hellion build, and you're going to need 3 gates up asap (depending on map) and ofc robo to scout and in case banshees come. If your question is what is the best response vs mech, most solid I've found is dual robo for coloss/immortals. Best comp ofc mothership/carriers. However tbh all protoss builds can handle mech, comes down to experience/skill. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo Into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes? I Remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 Min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries) 1-gate FE is just an opening. How you defend that push depends on how you choose to transition. If your transition has sentries (it should) and doesn't skimp too much on army, you'll be fine. Monk has written a guide on one good way to transition from 1 gate FE: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292549 That transition actually skimps quite a bit on army to dump resources into upgrades and tech. To defend a 2-base stim timing with that mid-game, Monk suggests: Extra rax: Get Ready for a dedicated stim push. Depending on the timing of the Push, you will need either 1 or 2 cannons. Again, you might have 1-1 finished, but without cannons, 4-5 rax of Bio will still totally Roll you over. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On December 14 2011 09:31 chestnutcc wrote: edit: Question 1 answered in the op Is it advisable to push T's ramp with 6 stalkers and a zealot if you dont see a push coming within 7 minutes or so? (MC demonstrates such a 6 gate attack against the 1/1/1 in a video, albeit without a robo) Er, no, this isn't advisable. Cloaked banshees is instant loss and you should never attack straight into a terran who's trying to allin you. On December 14 2011 09:38 W2 wrote: How does this build handle a quick expo into 5-6 rax quick timing as stim finishes? I remember MC himself saying sentries are needed to hold such timings. I'm guessing with this build you would scout his extra raxes maybe 1-2 min in advance, and you'd prepare with more zealots (rather than warp in 50 energy sentries) Exactly what kcdc said. Other options include colossi, charge, storm, or just good macro off of 6 gates. Again, this is an early-game guide and how you defend mid-game attacks is a mid-game issue which depends on your mid-game strategy. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Amornthep
Singapore2605 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 15 2011 01:03 Amornthep wrote: You should be able to do it on all maps except close by air spawns on metalopolis, etc. 2 rax is pretty easy to hold using this build as long as you micro correctly and pull a few probes if needed. Most importantly is that you don't lose your stalkers to his marauders. Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:15 Plansix wrote: Ok, so any map with distances similar to metalopolis. That is pretty much exactly what happened yesterday and my 2 other warpgates were no where close to done by the time he was at my natural. I'll stick to slower expansion builds on those maps. I don't see why you can't use it on close pos metal. | ||
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Arun
United States56 Posts
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