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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
On December 13 2011 14:11 althaz wrote: Something like this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287970 Whilst that has a small part on the FFE build order, its more of a playstyle guide rather than a guide specifically for the FFE | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On December 13 2011 10:58 NrGmonk wrote: [*]Marine tank push: This push hits at about 7:20 and cannot be scouted in time with an observer. Thus, you must have a probe/stalker outside of the Terran's base in case he moves out with marine tank. If you see this push coming, immediately cancel your 2nd observer for an immortal and chornoboost both your robo and your gateways, making nothing but immortals, zealots, and up to 2 sentries. Even with an exact response, this can be hard to hold. If I still played Terran I would be VERY sad that you posted that part. That build was such a good way to farm wins (2 rax 1 fac marine tank). | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
On December 13 2011 14:26 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm not sure how safe this build is against a Marine/SCV all-in. Without an early Sentry, you'll be in a lot of trouble if an SCV train and a bunch of Marines walks into your base. Otherwise this builds appears safe vs the variety of early Terran attacks. Well obviously it won't survive a marine scv train, barely any fast expand builds do in their purest form. You'd have to immediately cancel the nexus, drop extra gateways and chronoboost a sentry out if you saw a marine scv allin coming. | ||
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vince1234
39 Posts
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
On December 13 2011 14:30 vince1234 wrote: how do you deal with reaper rush or reaper expand using this build? A reaper expand produces a single reaper for scouting purposes that goes into your main base. Just shoot it with your stalker. What do you mean by reaper rush? I've never seen an effective one. I guess you could just continue to chronoboost stalkers out of one gateway whilst expanding and hold it off unless it was some sort of 5 rax reaper without speed where a more drastic response would be needed. | ||
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TechnoSchaman
United States156 Posts
For example, i lose my scouting probe outside his base which doesnt tell me much so i poke with zealot, stalker stalker as you suggest. I see about 4 or 5 marines at the top of his ramp and no bunker, using your build i assumed 2rax or whatever, but it was actually gasless FE into 5Rax marine aggression. My micro was not prime, but he just walked right over me and ended the game there. Basically my question is, is it autoloss to do this build without scouting 100% correctly, or should i just be more flexible with my builds and be ready to change it up at any moment. i can provide replay if needed but why i lost isnt really the issue | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On the subject of scouting pokes, I'll share a trick I picked up from Oz. If the terran has a bunker at his natural, you can lead with your 2 stalkers to let them absorb the first few hits, and then run by the bunker with your zealot. At the very least you will always be able to confirm whether he finished his CC or is planning an all-in. In more fortunate circumstances you can get into his main and see exactly what is going on. Overall I consider it a fine use of 100 minerals and it has saved me from 4 rax more than once. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I prefer to be greedier, but for beginners who want a solid, safe build that will easily defend any early pressure, or for elite level players that just want to guarantee making it to mid-game on roughly even terms where their superior play can shine through, this is a good way to go. I will say that I disagree with this part: The reasons for this are 2 fold. First, an early sentry from a 1 gate 1 gas expand is quite useless versus any early bio pressure. Secondly, if you skip an early sentry, you can get a robo out much earlier than most 1 gate expansion builds, adding to the safety of the build as explained above. While I understand why this build doesn't get a sentry, an early sentry can actually be quite good for other 1 gate 1 gas expands. You can get a guardian shield in time for the reactor 2-rax which basically doubles the survivability of your units against that push. And if you get fewer stalkers, the sentry doesn't delay your robo. Again, it makes sense for this build not to get a sentry, but I don't think those reasons apply to all 1 gate FE builds. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 13 2011 12:22 Skyro wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2011 11:16 NrGmonk wrote: Versus 1 rax gasless expand, if you follow this build exactly, your nexus will start at the same time your opponent's CC finishes. Thus, you will be quite behind. Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in. I personally either gateway no core expand or skip the zealot in this expand. On December 13 2011 12:34 Tazerenix wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2011 12:22 Skyro wrote: Curious what build do you do if you scout gasless expand? Currently I go fast double stalker into contain so he can't float his CC down to his natural and it let's me kite him all the way back to my base if it's some marine-SCV all-in. You could just scrap the FE plans and 5gate allin them and win if you hide the majority of your units and perhaps hide your 2 extra gateways. Er I guess you could. I have to warn you that 5 gate allin is worse vs gasless expand than vs tech lab expand. On December 13 2011 13:00 ant885 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2011 11:06 CaptainHaz wrote: I find that 13/17 core has pretty much the same timing as 12/17 in terms of when you get you stalker out. Any reason for the 12 gate? Also, I'm curious what quick expand build you'd recommend if not this on certain maps. For the most part I stick to huk's 20 nexus build if I scout 2nd supply depot. His what? Would you (or someone) mind elaborating on that? What is that indicative of and @ what timing? thanks also, nice guide  If you see a 2nd depot, it rules out the reactor/techlab 2 rax, which Huk's 20 nexus build is supposedly weak against. On December 13 2011 13:13 GomJabbar wrote: + Show Spoiler + I do like this build against gas Terran builds, but the probe cut can be lengthy if you don't have enough scouting. I've also felt like this build does poorly against the 1-1-1 all in out of most 1-gate FEs, because it gets the nexus down at 30 and it's only just kicking in when the attack hits (the earliest variations of it). Still I think it's a very safe all-around build that can be used in a lot of situations, although it gets a fairly late nexus compared to almost any Terran FE (1 rax, gas or no gas). It's only a solid opening against a 2 rax or a tech opening (imo). Yes, it's a bit weaker versus the standard 1-1-1 allin if you assume that's coming. However, because of the faster robo, it is stronger against all the non-standard 1-1-1 allins, which are the by far the harder ones to hold. If anything, this build is the weakest vs standard macro play in comparison to other 1 gate FE. On December 13 2011 13:27 Easytouch1500 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Can you elaborate on why you do the reactions that you do based on what you scout with the poke? Im quite confused on the reasons why. I can only guess as to why the building order is the placement it is For example, why, if your opponent is going for a 1 rax FE with 1 marauder do you get your two gateways down so early? Why not an earlier gas/robo? A 2 rax with techlab/naked can do a lot of damage if you don't have those extra gates. + Show Spoiler + Why is a delayed reactor/building bunker a sign of a tech build? Is it because they don't need a reactor out early as they would only use it for another building? Or is it because they don't have the economy to support it yet while they are teching up and it would mess up the build? Why is the bunker of any significance? Is it just a precaution terran players get while they are teching up and that is the first timing at which a push can come that would hurt them and they now have the resources for it? I just don't understand why you get your buildings in the order you do based on the buildings  With a tech build, your get a factory with your first 100 gas and a reactor with your 2nd 50 gas. During that time, you can make 3 marines. Also, all builds that don't involve a marauder require a bunker to be perfectly safe from pokes. In comparison, a 2 rax with reactor/tech lab gets a reactor with the first 50 gas and has enough units and a marauder to not warrant a bunker. + Show Spoiler + Also, if your opponent didn't wall off do you think you should bring a probe along with your zlot/ stalker poke and slip it in and suicide the probe to get additional scouting information? Sure On December 13 2011 14:13 Darclite wrote: + Show Spoiler + Wow, combine this with your CreatorPrime PvT thread and you have the most magnificent PvT guide imaginable, thank you so much. Also, thanks for explaining the superiority of the second stalker over the sentry, I never understood which was better and why. A couple of questions though, this does transition most often into the CreatorPrime style, right? Or at least it is safe and logical to? Also, will you include more replays? Those are good but it would help to see every adaptation. And you mention that this is bad against 1 rax gasless FE, what would you advise against that, Huk's 20 food FE? Seems like you could switch to that even if you scout him last and be pretty stable. Great guide Yes, it transitions perfectly int the CreatorPrime build. Maybe I'll add replays. We'll see. I answered the 1 rax gasless FE question up above. I don't have enough experience with Huk's FE to comment on that. On December 13 2011 14:26 BronzeKnee wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm not sure how safe this build is against a Marine/SCV all-in. Without an early Sentry, you'll be in a lot of trouble if an SCV train and a bunch of Marines walks into your base. Otherwise this builds appears safe vs the variety of early Terran attacks. You're better off vs a marine scv allin with a stalker rather than a sentry. With 2 stalkers, you can kite marines much more easily than with 1. On December 13 2011 14:30 vince1234 wrote: + Show Spoiler + how do you deal with reaper rush or reaper expand using this build? If you mean reaper first, pressure with zealot/stalker while your 2nd stalker defends your base from the reaper. On December 13 2011 14:43 TechnoSchaman wrote: + Show Spoiler + You mention this build isnt good against Gasless FE, or not being able to scout. What would you recommend doing if we cant scout. Obviously your easy answer will be another build, but im curious how to tell certain things. For example, i lose my scouting probe outside his base which doesnt tell me much so i poke with zealot, stalker stalker as you suggest. I see about 4 or 5 marines at the top of his ramp and no bunker, using your build i assumed 2rax or whatever, but it was actually gasless FE into 5Rax marine aggression. My micro was not prime, but he just walked right over me and ended the game there. Basically my question is, is it autoloss to do this build without scouting 100% correctly, or should i just be more flexible with my builds and be ready to change it up at any moment. i can provide replay if needed but why i lost isnt really the issue Scout earlier if you're depending on knowing if he has gas or not. My reactions are completely based on the fact you scout your opponent got gas. There's a whole set of other possibilities if there's no gas, which you probably failed to account for just based on this guide. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
Scout Fast Reactor If you are ever allowed to scout 1 marine into a reactor I think you should cancel your zealot and transition into:
With all chrono after the 3 you already spent on probes going to warpgate tech. It comes out better against a reactor-cc than 30 nexus and crushes reactor first 2 rax. Reactor-Techlab 2rax If you go with the 30 nexus you'll plant it right before you poke the ramp. If your poke shows you the signs of a 2rax 1-2 marauder 7-9 marine push is coming I prefer to delay the robo get and instead get a chronoboosted sentry followed by a chronoboosted stalker after adding my 2 gates. i.e.
The early form of the attack will start about when your 3rd stalker finishes hold back and wait for your warp-ins. You will push him back with 1 zealot 6 stalkers and a guardian shield before the bunkers complete. The guardian shield is amazing against marine heavy early pushes. Stop the bunkers and focus the marauders with your stalkers first as they do bonus damage to the maruaders and the marines do minimal damage while guardian shield is up and can be kited against as soon as the marauders are dead. I don't quite understand the response in the OP. 30 Stalker *chronoboost stalker 30 Gateway 30 Gateway 32 Pylon 32 Stalker *chronoboost stalker Is that supposed to be: - a 3rd stalker followed by 2gates on 32 then a 4th stalker - 2gates on 30 followed by a 3rd and 4th stalker If the former do your gates line up with wargpate finishing? Seems like they wouldn't and that your warp-ins would finish after bunkers complete on a 1 marauder timing if you didn't engage to stop them. If anyone has any experience in favor of or opposed to these options it'd be nice to hear. | ||
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Easytouch1500
United States66 Posts
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Seagull_
75 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 13 2011 15:52 Jaeger wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's a great stable build but as you said not optimal vs greedy builds and can have some trouble with some hellion builds. Scout Fast Reactor If you are ever allowed to scout 1 marine into a reactor I think you should cancel your zealot and transition into:
With all chrono after the 3 you already spent on probes going to warpgate tech. It comes out better against a reactor-cc than 30 nexus and crushes reactor first 2 rax. Reactor-Techlab 2rax If you go with the 30 nexus you'll plant it right before you poke the ramp. If your poke shows you the signs of a 2rax 1-2 marauder 7-9 marine push is coming I prefer to delay the robo get and instead get a chronoboosted sentry followed by a chronoboosted stalker after adding my 2 gates. i.e.
The early form of the attack will start about when your 3rd stalker finishes hold back and wait for your warp-ins. You will push him back with 1 zealot 6 stalkers and a guardian shield before the bunkers complete. The guardian shield is amazing against marine heavy early pushes. Stop the bunkers and focus the marauders with your stalkers first as they do bonus damage to the maruaders and the marines do minimal damage while guardian shield is up and can be kited against as soon as the marauders are dead. I don't quite understand the response in the OP. 30 Stalker *chronoboost stalker 30 Gateway 30 Gateway 32 Pylon 32 Stalker *chronoboost stalker Is that supposed to be: - a 3rd stalker followed by 2gates on 32 then a 4th stalker - 2gates on 30 followed by a 3rd and 4th stalker If the former do your gates line up with wargpate finishing? Seems like they wouldn't and that your warp-ins would finish after bunkers complete on a 1 marauder timing if you didn't engage to stop them. If anyone has any experience in favor of or opposed to these options it'd be nice to hear. It's the first option. The 2nd gateway lines up with wgs while the 3rd gateway finishes a few seconds later. The beauty of this build is that no matter when the terran hits your natural. The 2nd option is not that different at all and is perfectly fine as well. On December 13 2011 16:14 Easytouch1500 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hmm, alright. Then why do you get the faster 3rd stalker if you scout the fast possibility of a reactor/tech lab but get faster gates against the possibility of a tech lab naked? Wouldn't a 2 rax techlab naked hit earlier before warpgate and thus you would want the faster stalker? And also wouldn't 2 rax reactor first hit later with more units and thus you would want to invest earlier in two gateways because you should have WG research finished by the time the attack hits? This is a good catch. To be honest, either option (faster stalker + extra stalker or just 1 stalker) can hold either type of 2 rax. The faster stalker version just holds both more convincingly while the 1 stalker version allows to start probes sooner. With my suggestions, I'm kinda playing the odds a bit. 2 rax is much more common if you scout reactor first than if you scout tech lab first, as you can see by my estimated odds. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
here are a lot of inefficiencies in it that can be tweaked out and I think you can be greedier on most maps as well (skipping zealot is safe on many maps). First of all, when doing a 1 gate FE it generally doesn't make any sense to spend 3 chrono's on the nexus, the thing is that 3rd chrono will barely net you any extra minerals early because you're saturated quite fast. In fact the 3rd chrono on nexus means you have spend 50 minerals 10s earlier compared to a 2chrono on nexus build which means you expand later as well. There is really no point spending that chrono only to have a probe cut later... Instead use an extra chrono on warpgate tech and be safer, thus able to expand faster instead... It's better in every way. The golden rule I use is 2 chrono's on nex for 1 gas builds, 3 chrono on nex for 2 gas builds because the additional value of extra chrono drops hard unless you expand super fast... I also don't like chronoing the first gate twice like that, the first stalker will hardly pop any faster because of it and I don't think it's vital at all to have the second stalker pop out that quick. What's the point anyway if you are not going to make a 3rd stalker before warpgate finishes? It's a mere waste of chrono imo only to get that second stalker a little faster which is hardly neccesary.. Finally boosting that nexus that late in the game when you're already making a robo is hardly neccesary, i'd rather save a few chrono's for my first 2 observers... TL;DR this build has pretty bad use of chronoboost and unneccesary inefficiency | ||
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Mellow696
United States59 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 13 2011 16:30 Markwerf wrote: I think it's a pretty crappy version of the 1 gate FE. here are a lot of inefficiencies in it that can be tweaked out and I think you can be greedier on most maps as well (skipping zealot is safe on many maps). First of all, when doing a 1 gate FE it generally doesn't make any sense to spend 3 chrono's on the nexus, the thing is that 3rd chrono will barely net you any extra minerals early because you're saturated quite fast. In fact the 3rd chrono on nexus means you have spend 50 minerals 10s earlier compared to a 2chrono on nexus build which means you expand later as well. There is really no point spending that chrono only to have a probe cut later... Instead use an extra chrono on warpgate tech and be safer, thus able to expand faster instead... It's better in every way. The golden rule I use is 2 chrono's on nex for 1 gas builds, 3 chrono on nex for 2 gas builds because the additional value of extra chrono drops hard unless you expand super fast... I also don't like chronoing the first gate twice like that, the first stalker will hardly pop any faster because of it and I don't think it's vital at all to have the second stalker pop out that quick. What's the point anyway if you are not going to make a 3rd stalker before warpgate finishes? It's a mere waste of chrono imo only to get that second stalker a little faster which is hardly neccesary.. Finally boosting that nexus that late in the game when you're already making a robo is hardly neccesary, i'd rather save a few chrono's for my first 2 observers... TL;DR this build has pretty bad use of chronoboost and unneccesary inefficiency First of all, I really dislike your tone. There have also been a lot of times where your posts were questionable, but not wrong enough to warrant me correcting them. But this time you've directly attacked my guide, so here we go. If you don't use a 3rd chornoboost on your nexus and a 2nd chronoboost on your gateway, where else are you going to use your chronoboost? This build already has it that your 2nd and 3rd gateways line up with warpgate research. Any more chrono on warpgates would be useless. In addition, a large part of holding off 2 rax pressures is having a large enough standing army so that the Terran cannot put up a bunker. This build accomplishes that while something like Huk's expand, which relies on chronoing warpgates, struggles with. So your assessment that chronoing warpgates instead of units is safer is false. Skipping zealot first with this build is definitely not safe on most maps versus gas builds. Tbh it seems to me what you're arguing is that Huk's build is just overall superior to this one. Chronoboosting probes is almost always useful. How can you say it's late in the game when I'm telling people to chronoboost their nexus at around 24 probes? Even if you do chronoboost your nexus, you'll still have plenty of energy to chronoboost your obs. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
What's a better use of chrono at this stage with a 1gate expand? | ||
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charliexjustice
United States42 Posts
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps. I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure. If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 13 2011 17:07 NrGmonk wrote: First of all, I really dislike your tone. There have also been a lot of times where your posts were questionable, but not wrong enough to warrant me correcting them. But this time you've directly attacked my guide, so here we go. If you don't use a 3rd chornoboost on your nexus and a 2nd chronoboost on your gateway, where else are you going to use your chronoboost? This build already has it that your 2nd and 3rd gateways line up with warpgate research. Any more chrono on warpgates would be useless. In addition, a large part of holding off 2 rax pressures is having a large enough standing army so that the Terran cannot put up a bunker. This build accomplishes that while something like Huk's expand, which relies on chronoing warpgates, struggles with. So your assessment that chronoing warpgates instead of units is safer is false. Skipping zealot first with this build is definitely not safe on most maps versus gas builds. Tbh it seems to me what you're arguing is that Huk's build is just overall superior to this one. Chronoboosting probes is almost always useful. How can you say it's late in the game when I'm telling people to chronoboost their nexus at around 24 probes? Even if you do chronoboost your nexus, you'll still have plenty of energy to chronoboost your obs. I agree with you and want to put special emphasis on the zealot - people have started to appreciate early zealots more and more, I've seen Nani use a variation of a one gate FE where he even gets two zealots first. They are not meant to do damage but to take damage and force kiting. Which makes stalkers stronger early on than they would normally be, which makes this build more safe vs a 2 rax pressure. Furthermore, without the zealot you clearly can't zealot/stalker-poke. Again, this is rather obvious and I don't understand how Markwerk can disregard this completely. A zealot/stalker-poke is the most efficient scout you can get that early into the game, which is very useful especially for ladder-play where you never really know what crazyness you are up against. The thing is, if you cut too many probes and scout a gas-less FE, then why not continue probe-production immediately, put all chronos on probes and oversaturate your main until the nexus is done? The disadvantage is really a small one and is only an issue if your opponent can establish his natural completely uncontested. Nevertheless with early zealot/stalker(s) and without spending money on sentries, you should be able to do "some" poking and delay his CC from flying down a bit. And force him into more bunkers than he would like to have at that point. Overall, I'm more and more convinced that the trade-off is really worth it. The danger of dying in the early game is imo much larger than the - possible - slight disdavantage in midgame. | ||
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