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On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote:
Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected.
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On December 13 2011 18:27 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote:
Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected.
Thanks! I really feel like the 9 scout is still the best way to get a probe inside the base for the early gas timing though. Do you think that the chrono boosts being slightly misaligned is a big deal?
Also, are you saying that if I see a complete walloff, that counts as the critical second depot and that I am safe to expand?
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
Also, sleepingdog's post right before yours stresses the importance of the 18 zealot with the poke. Are you sure its a good idea to cancel that zealot in favor of a faster expo?
Then again, I recall 4monk saying at some point in his replies that if he scouts a gasless expo he cuts the zealot... but then again, isn't gasless outside the realm of this thread? I'm confused. haha
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On December 13 2011 19:17 charliexjustice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 18:27 CaptainHaz wrote:On December 13 2011 18:21 charliexjustice wrote:
Great guide, as usual!
OK, now for the noob question: does this build employ a 9scout or is a 13 scout absolutely necessary for the 3 nexus chronos to time properly? As much as I love the smooth timing of chronoboosts, my 13 scout regularly runs into a barracks/depot wall off, leaving me utterly blind to my opponents gas timings (or anything else). Hell, even my 9 scout sometimes does this on third try of bigger maps.
I saw this kind of addressed above in technoshaman's question, but wasn't quite sure.
If I 9 scout, should I still retain the same chrono timings you listed?
You could 11 scout and still 13 gate with optimal chronoboosts if you mineral stack and plant your first pylon close to your nexus. Another thing to note is that if you scout a second supply depot, you're pretty safe to skip your zealot and expand earlier since it tells you that he couldn't have gone for a 12/16 rax. Also remember that a 13 scout doesn't give you any more minerals after 13 supply than an 11 scout would. So the third chronoboost isn't affected. Thanks! I really feel like the 9 scout is still the best way to get a probe inside the base for the early gas timing though. Do you think that the chrono boosts being slightly misaligned is a big deal? Also, are you saying that if I see a complete walloff, that counts as the critical second depot and that I am safe to expand? Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese? Also, sleepingdog's post right before yours stresses the importance of the 18 zealot with the poke. Are you sure its a good idea to cancel that zealot in favor of a faster expo? Then again, I recall 4monk saying at some point in his replies that if he scouts a gasless expo he cuts the zealot... but then again, isn't gasless outside the realm of this thread? I'm confused. haha
11 Scout is the best scout timing for protoss. On any 4 player map (including large maps like TDA) if you scout on 9, you get your probe into the first two spawns but not the third (and you don't get to chronoboost before dropping the gateway and not skip probes), if you scout on 13, you can only potentially get into the first base (and you can chronoboost twice before gateway), but if you scout on 11, you will always get into the first and second base, like the 9 scout, and not the 3rd base, which you can never get into anyway, but you still get to chronoboost twice before you drop the gateway without a loss of scouting information.
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On December 13 2011 14:30 vince1234 wrote:
how do you deal with reaper rush or reaper expand using this build?
You kill the reaper with your stalker maybe?
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Thank you, another great guide.
I particularly like the breakdown of the scouting scenarios. I am very comfortable with a 1 gate FE, but in my scouting, I just know to look for marauders/tech lab or just marines and react to that, but I have no clue what builds these situations could represent. Now I have a much better idea. Thank you again.
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Nvm, wrong thread
Well, since I misposted, might as well answer to someone :
On December 13 2011 19:17 charliexjustice wrote:
Is the 12/16 rax what leads to the marine/scv allin cheese?
No, 12/16 is 2 rax, the 12 one with Reactor after the first Marine, the 16 one with Lab (usually with Concussive Shells upgrade first).
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This is exactly the inspiration i needed to start grinding out single player games to learn builds! Thanks a lot!
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Thanks for pulling this from replays/thoughts/vods.
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O.O oGsMC does the same 1 gate fe when gas is scouted that I do.... HELL YEAH
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On December 13 2011 21:25 ShatterZer0 wrote:
O.O oGsMC does the same 1 gate fe when gas is scouted that I do.... HELL YEAH
You're on the path to winning two GSLs my friend!
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@ jaeger
that thread you linked assumes you take a 2nd gas early and assumes minerals only return 39 or 45 / min. This results in a gross overestimation of the mineral worth of chronoboosting probes for this specific case. If you only get 1 gas your minerals will reach saturation earlier and thus the net effect of the chronoboost will be much less. In the case of a 1 gate FE the value of the 3rd chronoboost is probably more around ~30-40 minerals. Note also that this return is calculated in that thread for probing up till full saturation without interruption, if you are forced into an idle nexus later because of using chronoboost (like is the case in the build of this thread..) then your advantage gets even less.
Also note that if you chronoboost once more you will have to pay up 1 probe 10s in advance all the time, in other words you'll often have 50 mins less for a moment then a build with 1 boost less.. This means boosting less can result in a faster expansion which in turn means faster double probe production, faster maynard and earlier use of the supply of your nexus.
In my opinion these advantages of getting the nexus faster AND being able to use that saved chrono on something else outweigh the 35ish minerals you gain by chronoing the nexus a 3rd time..
@Monk, i'm not attacking the guide per se just attacking MC's build..
I do think the general concept of getting a zealot and chronoing the stalker and expanding then is very useful on many maps. Of the current ladder pool i'd just say that I prefer to be a bit greedier because you are better off then if they decide not to pressure which is quite likely on maps like tal darim etc.
As far as chronoboosts go I explained above why I think the 3rd chronoboost is better spent elsewhere then the nexus. Also you can say that the 2nd and 3rd gate line up nicely with warpgate finishing but that doesn't mean the build is superefficient.. First of all the first gate is idle for quite some time, you can easily sqeeze out 1 more stalker of this before warpgate finishes, which in turn lets you shave 1 gateway while having the same amount of units as the push comes. In fact you could also get the 2nd gate earlier and chronoboost warpgate 1 or 2 more times while still having it line up nicely. That way you have warpgate ready 10 to 20 secs earlier AND you have 6 units ready 10 to 20 secs earlier while using 1 less gate...
To me that just sounds much more useful then having that 2nd stalker just a little bit earlier and having a somewhat unneeded 3rd gate. The saved cost of the gate could be put into faster geysers, faster forge whatever..
I'm not trying to attack you at all just commenting on the build itself in what I must admit sounded rather harsh. I did it that way though because this topic has been discussed quite a bit already in the infamous kcdc thread where similar conclusions where reached, ie you rarely need the 3rd gate if you line up the build a bit smoother.
@ sleepingdog
I don't think the zealot-stalker poke has much value anymore on most maps. Many maps have a pretty large distance between bases compared to maps half a year ago making it much riskier to send over your zealot so far. Also terrans wall in much more often these days which usually means your poke won't do much, compared to what simply poking with a probe would do.
Early zealot is still great against maps where bunker pressure is a great risk but on some of the bigger maps it simply isn't in my opinion. On a map like tal darim for example they can bunker but it's quite easy to intercept their units coming to the bunker even if it does complete. A finished bunker doesn't matter too much if they can only get 2 units in it, you can simply wait till 6 or so units and then kill it. Bunkering often delays their expansion too so it's not completely costless for them to do so.
Anyway for anything with a smaller rush distance I do like the zealot and can only recommend a 1 gate FE similar to this with some slight tweaks in timings.
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Russian Federation676 Posts
thanks a lot, I adjusted my standard pvt build to this one and I think its better than the one I used to have
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<3 great write-up on the safest PvT opening there is.
I use this opening on small maps to get an economic edge. On larger maps where Terrans tend to go for greedy openings I open 2 gate expand to put on some pressure.
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This build is over a year old and still it's still one of the most popular builds. Says enough about it's usefulness 
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I demand more replays of this build.
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Been using this for over 3 months... it's very good.
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do we need a thread for every 2 supply differ variation of 1 gate nexus? srsly, there is like no difference to a 27 / 28 nexus...
whatever, if someone finds this useful, who am i to whine about this :D
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United States8476 Posts
On December 14 2011 03:22 KalWarkov wrote:
do we need a thread for every 2 supply differ variation of 1 gate nexus? srsly, there is like no difference to a 27 / 28 nexus...
whatever, if someone finds this useful, who am i to whine about this :D
Not really.
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On December 14 2011 03:22 KalWarkov wrote:
do we need a thread for every 2 supply differ variation of 1 gate nexus? srsly, there is like no difference to a 27 / 28 nexus...
whatever, if someone finds this useful, who am i to whine about this :D
In the PvT early game, you just die if you are missing one unit, or if your timings are a little off.
Subtleties like these are what separate average range players from good players.
Try playing Protoss at a decent level before making rude comments like these please
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Alright, so I have 4 more questions.
1. So you are saying its better to get the early 3rd stalker because an early reactor indicates a higher probability of a 2 rax? So the only reason you delay the stalker if you scout tech lab first is because it is unlikely to be a 2 rax pressure build? If you could somehow determine whether they were going 2 rax pressure off of techlab first would it be better to get the 3rd stalker before gateways like how you do when you see the reactor first? TLDR: Do you want to get the 3rd stalker before 2 gates if you are sure of 2 rax pressure?
2. Also, in what situations would conc shells finish when you poke up the ramp with the zeal/stalker? This is assuming it is not an exceptionally large map like Tal'Darim. If you get slowed while poking up the ramp what does this tell you? Should you assume tech lab first 2 rax? Or would it be safe to assume a marauder expand? Is this unusual to have conc shells finished at such an early time or is in standard to have conc shells finished if they went tech lab after their first marine?
TLDR: Is it normal to get hit by conc shells when poking up the ramp if they went tech lab first, if not what different information does this give you?
3. When you poke up the ramp how exactly do you execute it? Do you want to send the zeal up first to soak damage and prevent any damage from the stalker? Or do you want to send both units up side by side so they equally absorb damage. This way you would get th farthest up the ramp while minimizing hull damage on either of the units. I have seen it done both ways and I don't know what is optimal.
4. Do you want to send your stalker straight to there base once it finishes building? Or do you want to send it around your natural and your third, then watch towers to find the scouting SCV? Or do you want to do an intermediate, like don't endlessly search for the scv but at least check some spots in your nat then the towers?
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EPT
