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Hyper-Aggressive ZvT: Tang's Three Barrel Bust
TL Stream Thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=286050
The Concept:
+ Show Spoiler +I've written TL threads on aggressive zerg play, but have overlooked the importance of having well-planned transitions. Thus, I've created the "Three Barrel Bust" to help players add structure to their play, simultaneously improving win rate, timings, and mechanics. Execute three separate timing attacks ( Hence three barrel bust) against your terran opponent to do damage, secure map control, and obtain scouting information. Also, it gives you three chances to win the game. Early Game Bust (7:15): 8 Slow Roach/16 Speedling*
Mid Game Bust (11:30): 20 Fast Roach/20 Fast Baneling/20Speedling (And a +1 upgrade)*
Late Game Bust (17:30) 6 Ultra, 48 baneling, 19Roach, 48 Ling*Note* : All pushes assume no damage has been done to your mineral line. If you are pressured, the attacks may be later or consist of fewer units. Note** : The Mid and Late game pushes assume you lose 0 units with the previous push(es). The pushes will be smaller depending on how many casualties you suffer when you attack.
Examples/Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Reasons to Practice this Style:
+ Show Spoiler +1) Zerg Switch Points:
I define a switch-point as the time when you stop producing drones and begin producing attacking units (Or vice versa). Since this build periodically goes between producing drones and attacking units, students quickly learn how to quickly squeeze out drones needed to execute a timing attack and promptly switch to attacking units at optimal times.
2) Timing Push:
A timing push is an attack that comes at a strategic moment, such as when an upgrade finishes or when your opponent isn't likely to have adequate defense. The best way to learn timing pushes is to practice them and this build incorporates three separate aggressive maneuvers.
3) The Three “M's”: Multitasking/Micro/Macro:
To execute this build optimally, you must put on pressure with your timing attacks (micro) while continuing to produce drones, units, and/or upgrades at your base. This ability to multitask is crucial, not only to this style of play, but really to StarCraft2 in general. By taking the initiative and being aggressive so frequently, every game will improve the Three “M's”.
The Build:
+ Show Spoiler +Note: This is a greedy version of the build and assumes you are not pressured and you suffer no drone deaths. This is NOT entirely uncommon considering how aggressive you're being, as terran will often be on the defensive. Still, in some games you will have to produce additional units to defend at various stages of the game. Example: If your opponent 2rax pressures you, you will need more than 4 lings after pool finishes
9 Overlord 15Hatch (2:10) -Scouting drone sent out- 16Gas (2:30) 15Pool (2:50) 18Overlord (3:35) 18 2xQueen, 2xSet of Ling (4:00) At 4:15, you will have full saturation at your main (16 drones mining 2 per patch, 3 in gas) Begin rallying both hatcheries to your expansion. Never touch your main mineral line unless you have to, as transferring will lose mining time. 24-28 Drones (Reach 28 at 4:30) 28 Roach Warren (4:45), replace drone, start Ling speed (4:55) 28 2xOverlord (5:10) 28-44 8xRoaches (5:40) 44 2xOverlord (6:10) 8 Roaches Spawn at 6:30, hotkey and move out with hatcheries rallied onto roaches. 44-52 14xLings (6:40) ***First Barrel: 8 Roaches and 16 Lings arrive at opponent's base at roughly 7:15)***
Note: Future food counts may differ based on how many units you lose with your first push
52-60 Drones (6:45) 60 2xGas (7:10) 58 Lair (7:25) 58 Overlord 60 Evolution Chamber (7:30) 62 Baneling Nest (7:55) Start +1 upgrade of your choice (usually melee attack) when evolution chamber finishes Drone to 72 - More specifically, you need a total of 41 drones (16drones mining minerals at your main and 16drones mining minerals at your natural with 3 drones in 3 gas.) Once you're at this point, drones are mining EXACTLY 2 per patch on all of your mineral patches and 3 per gas geyser so you should not touch the drones in gas or on minerals, even when building additional structures. Lair finishes at 8:45, begin Baneling and Roach speed 72-92 10xRoaches (As soon as roaches finish, move towards opponent's base and rally lings to roaches) 92 3xOverlord 92-110 36xZerglings (Or as many as possible) When your lings and roaches are close to your opponent's base, your upgrades should all finish so morph as many banes as you can at 110 supply and attack. ***Second Barrel: 20 Roaches, 20 Lings, 20 Banelings with +1 and all 3 speed upgrades arrives at opponent's base roughly 11:30***
As you execute the second bust, start your 3rd base at 11:30 as well and begin producing 6 drones putting you at 116. You need 6 drones because you're going to take the 4th gas (4 drones) and produce a second evolution chamber for more melee/carapace upgrades and an infestation pit (2 drones). So you keep your 16 drones mining 2 per patch at each base and fill all gas. Now, rally all hatcheries to 3rd base and saturate it ASAP with 22 drones – once again, I know it's annoying but I want to emphasize the importance: 16 drones mining minerals 2 per patch and 3 in each gas. Also, produce a queen for your 3rd. Start your hive immediately when infestation pit finishes, at around 12:30
Now, rally all hatcheries to 3rd base) Saturate your 3 base with 24 drones ASAP (2 to build gas geysers, 16 mining minerals 2per patch, 3 mining each gas). Take a 4th base at 14:00 and produce a queen there when it's done. Max out on 3-4 base with ultras and lings with constant upgrades (don't forget adrenal glands and chitinous plating). You should max out by 16:30-17:30 ***Third Barrel: Maxed out army of 6 Ultra, 48 Banelings, 19 Roaches, 44 Lings arrive at opponent's base at roughly 16:30***
Early Game Bust:
+ Show Spoiler +At 7:15, the terran player will likely not have many defenses or units. With 8 Roaches and 14 Speedlings, you have the perfect early game composition to either significantly delay the terran expansion and even break into the terran defenses and wreak havoc. I cannot tell you how many games I have won outright with this opening, so do not doubt its strength! The roaches are used to break through the depot or add-on. Then you lead through the opening with the roaches and let your lings come in behind, getting good surrounds on his units and SCVs. Keep in mind, though, that if his base is too fortified at the top of the ramp, you can usually pull back and use your units defensively while you macro up to bust #2. TIP: Rally your hatcheries onto a roach as soon as your roaches are on the field. Ideally, you want to hotkey roaches and lings in a separate control group but if you struggle with this type of micro, just hotkey the roaches as 1 and use only 1 a-move and target fire with the roaches. Reinforcing lings will follow the roaches, engaging units only when they do. When you move the roaches, the lings will stop attacking and follow them. This saves you the trouble of having to manually micro both lings and roaches.
Mid Game Bust:
+ Show Spoiler +At 11:30, any considerable terran player will have an expansion somewhat fortified with bunkers, tanks, or both. It's very important to split your army up into 2 or 3 groups to come from different angles rather than clumping up a attack-moving in a big ball. It's also a good idea to have half of your banelings come separately from the side and try to move right into the marines or bunkers while the roaches focus down the tanks. Get right up close and snipe those tanks, don't be afraid
Late Game Bust:
+ Show Spoiler +With a maxed out army, good upgrades and a strong composition you should be ready to be on the offensive. Again, with so many melee units, surface area is key and it's important to attack from as many angles as possible. Flanks, split-attacks, etc. are all particularly useful. In general, you want to lead with the ultras to soak up the tank and marine shells and then move in with the lings and banes. If you have a few infestors, fungal growth his clumped up units. Try to avoid narrow/closed in spaces where you can't get good surface area/surrounds.
Thank you all for reading my thread! <3
-Tang Courtesy of www.TangStarcraft.com
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Could you provide us with a few replays of this strategy? I have difficulty judging the power of these kind of timing pushes without actually seeing them in action.
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Ya I could swear i read this same post like 4 days ago
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Wait, if you lose zero units in an early push, doesn't that mean you'll just win the game?
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On October 29 2011 23:00 Poelie wrote: Could you provide us with a few replays of this strategy? I have difficulty judging the power of these kind of timing pushes without actually seeing them in action.
I edited the post to include a replay against Painuser, hope it helps.
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On October 29 2011 23:16 Comprissent wrote:Wait, if you lose zero units in an early push, doesn't that mean you'll just win the game?
I can't predict how many units will die, it's just for reference.
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I like to do that mid game bust quite often, with Roach/Baneling speed and +1 carapace (so your lings die in two tank shots instead of one and your roaches in four instead of three). I am always able to at least kill off some tanks. While I am attacking, I plant the Spire and a Third, so I have a nice transition.
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On October 29 2011 23:16 Comprissent wrote:Wait, if you lose zero units in an early push, doesn't that mean you'll just win the game?
I imagine it could also mean you poked up his ramp, saw too much stuff, and backed off to contest his natural while droning
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great stuff, thx for your work :D
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Stop using spoilers in every single guide, for the love of god.
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How do you actually beat this, it is incredibly frustrating to play against, and I BLIND COUNTER it!
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On October 30 2011 02:26 Catgroove wrote: Stop using spoilers in every single guide, for the love of god. Lol if i dont use spoilers ppl complain, if i do use spoilers, ppl complain. DEAL!
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On October 30 2011 02:26 Catgroove wrote: Stop using spoilers in every single guide, for the love of god.
I don't mind the spoilers much, it keeps the guide looking neat rather then a big wall of text.
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I don't know about this man... especially since push 2 and 3 rely on losing NO UNITS earlier... 11 : 30 is also very late 3rd, but I guess this works against lower masters...
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On October 30 2011 03:07 []Phase[] wrote: I don't know about this man... especially since push 2 and 3 rely on losing NO UNITS earlier... 11 : 30 is also very late 3rd, but I guess this works against lower masters...
It works at high master/GM level. It doesn't "rely" on losing no units, you can lose them all and still go for a roach/ling/bane attack it'll just be fewer units obviously. The 3rd is delayed, but considering the amount of pressure you're putting on it's not too bad. In fact it's one of the safer ways to approach the matchup, as you won't have to deal with hellion pressure / drops / timing pushes nearly as much. If he goes for a timing push, his tanks are unseiged and that helps your cause.
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Shame these aren't on YouTube or something.. I don't wanna DL reps on this comp, since it's not mine. =( Sounds very cool though, even with as much as I hate Roaches.
Off topic: Hot girlfriend, man.
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I'll get a youtube tutorial going when I have the time!
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please stop naming stupid tactics after yourself, it's just irritating.
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i practiced this once and then played a masters terran and destroyed him. the first attack i pulled back. the second attack i got most of the tanks and forced him to pick up his nat CC, and the third attack i was maxed with ultras and just demolished his nat and third, and then into his main with reinforcements.
thanks for the build
not to mention it was one of the most fun zvt's ive played in so long.
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That early bust is pretty scary, I have no idea how I'd hold off that if I didn't scout it properly and went for FE.
I like your mentality of having just enough drones and making units to be aggressive, it's a refreshing change from the typical crazy saturation play.
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On October 30 2011 16:54 Mobius_1 wrote: That early bust is pretty scary, I have no idea how I'd hold off that if I didn't scout it properly and went for FE.
There usually aren't tanks with seige mode for the first wave, which makes it very capable of ending the game unless they bunker up. Also IF they play very defensive you can pull back and hit again with the ling/bane/roach with more units after he has expanded. Expansions on maps like metal and xelnaga are pretty wide open and makes attacking at multiple angles very strong.
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I don't get some of the hate.. Do you people have absolutley ZERO things to do irl/whilst at the computer?
I believe its a solid strategy and build, I'm way too passive to pull it off tho
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the first part of this guide is really good up until the first timing push but then it seems like you are just looking on one of you replays doing this build and writing down the numbers -noone will count if he has 48 banelings 18 roaches and 44 lings in lategame so tose numbers make no sense -as you said the timings will differ depending on what you lose BUT also it largely depends on what your opponent is doing since you cant play this vs a lot of strats terran is doing (especially in lower leagues i would imagine) also there is no backup plan for this build (im sure you have one when youre doing this but no plat player who reads this will know what to do if terran does something out of the ordinary)
build in general sounds quite risky i have to say since you can very quickly lose to a terran ~9.30 push since you will be totally out of defenses then (playing how this order suggests it)
i think this guide is good until the 1st push which isnt anything particularly new and the build is quite nice for the whole game IF the terran plays how you think he does (which is oftentimes not correct)
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On October 31 2011 22:31 sVnteen wrote: the first part of this guide is really good up until the first timing push but then it seems like you are just looking on one of you replays doing this build and writing down the numbers -noone will count if he has 48 banelings 18 roaches and 44 lings in lategame so tose numbers make no sense -as you said the timings will differ depending on what you lose BUT also it largely depends on what your opponent is doing since you cant play this vs a lot of strats terran is doing (especially in lower leagues i would imagine) also there is no backup plan for this build (im sure you have one when youre doing this but no plat player who reads this will know what to do if terran does something out of the ordinary)
build in general sounds quite risky i have to say since you can very quickly lose to a terran ~9.30 push since you will be totally out of defenses then (playing how this order suggests it)
i think this guide is good until the 1st push which isnt anything particularly new and the build is quite nice for the whole game IF the terran plays how you think he does (which is oftentimes not correct)
I think it's actually the second push that is the most potent, with the timed upgrades. Doing this build you're actually hoping that your opponent goes for an early marine/tank push. You'll already have some roaches and you can spam out 2hatch worth of lings to completely overrun it and counter attack for the victory with ling/bane/roach.
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Loving it, and idd especially the 2nd push.
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Hi tang! Cool build! I do the early game ling roach but haven't had such precise follow up's. This will help me refine my mid game for sure.
A few questions:
1. Why do you gas first and then delay metabolic boost till after the roach warren? If you aren't getting ling speed right away, is there any reason to delay your pool/queens, etc? or, why not get speed at 24, when you have the gas and are waiting on larvae for drones anyway?
2. I usually pull drones off gas after roaches are started to get lings out quicker. Is this a bad idea with this build, which transitions to fast lair/upgrades?
3. how do you adapt for an air-centric response?
thanks for the great guide!
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1) You need the gas for meta boost and roaches, but you don't utilize lingspeed until you push out so it actually slows down your warren and roaches come a bit later if you get speed early. If you're having trouble dealing with pressure, though, you can always get lingspeed first. 2) I do this sometimes too, but if I'm planning on going lair and upgrades I just keep them in. 3) You get your evo pretty early, so you should just throw down a spore at each base (maybe 2 if they're really committing to air) and add on queens. Usually, though, if they go for air you'll punish them hard with your first push, sometimes killing all scvs and just needing to mass anti-air to win. If they're sticking to 1base, you may want a baneling nest because a common transition from 2port banshee is 1base mass marine/banshee.
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I just want to say I'm a huge fan of your guides Tang, thank you for coming up with these strategies and explaining them to us.
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Looks like a nice guide. I'll probably experiment with it in team games. On the other hand I suggest u look into the late pool thing. It might be that some minerals gained from later pool are not worth delaying larva injections (and as a result later push or less future drone mining time)/ Also it looks very risky and scares people off.
Edit
9 Overlord 15Hatch (2:10) -Scouting drone sent out- 16Gas (2:30) 15Pool (2:50) 18Overlord (3:35) 18 2xQueen, 2xSet of Ling (4:00) At 4:15, you will have full saturation at your main (16 drones mining 2 per patch, 3 in gas) Begin rallying both hatcheries to your expansion. Never touch your main mineral line unless you have to, as transferring will lose mining time. 20-28 Drones (Reach 28 at 4:30) at 18 u make 2 queens + 2 sets of ling. 18+2*2+2= 24. So u will have not 20 supply but 24 and 8 drones come from 24 to 32 supply? Did u just forget queens cost supply?
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On October 31 2011 23:47 Cheerio wrote:Looks like a nice guide. I'll probably experiment with it in team games. On the other hand I suggest u look into the late pool thing. It might be that some minerals gained from later pool are not worth delaying larva injections (and as a result later push or less future drone mining time)/ Also it looks very risky and scares people off. Edit Show nested quote +9 Overlord 15Hatch (2:10) -Scouting drone sent out- 16Gas (2:30) 15Pool (2:50) 18Overlord (3:35) 18 2xQueen, 2xSet of Ling (4:00) At 4:15, you will have full saturation at your main (16 drones mining 2 per patch, 3 in gas) Begin rallying both hatcheries to your expansion. Never touch your main mineral line unless you have to, as transferring will lose mining time. 20-28 Drones (Reach 28 at 4:30) at 18 u make 2 queens + 2 sets of ling. 18+2*2+2= 24. So u will have not 20 supply but 24 and 8 drones come from 24 to 32 supply? Did u just forget queens cost supply?
Yeah I edited the OP, thanks Cheerio. I've also uploaded additional replays of the style against some more aggressive terrans.
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This looks pretty awesome. I've been trying it around against an AI and everything seems very smooth to me. Just one thing I found to be pretty annoying : the overlord on 18 seems to delay queens and lings by a few seconds and that doesn't sound very optimal, a 17 overlord seems to fix that what do you think?
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On November 01 2011 02:11 Rykyu wrote: This looks pretty awesome. I've been trying it around against an AI and everything seems very smooth to me. Just one thing I found to be pretty annoying : the overlord on 18 seems to delay queens and lings by a few seconds and that doesn't sound very optimal, a 17 overlord seems to fix that what do you think?
17 overlord works too
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Don't understand why your getting so much hate Tang, been following you for a decent amount of time, all yours builds are solid and have helped me, a high diamond player, immensely. So for that I thank you.
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Tried this the other night and it worked real well. Its acutally really refreshing take on the matchup as you feel more incontrol of the match and dictate the flow of the match a little more instead of sitting back waiting to die. More zerg really need to be more aggressive like this and fingure out more aggressive builds as this constant expand, macro, and survive crap is garbage + annoying to ALWAYS play.
Thanks agian ! Keep up the good work.
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I've been trying this build out with a lot of success now, just one question, how do you react to banshee + hellion builds [as in commiting banshee hellion not just 1 - 2], I realize the first push punishes them a bit but as soon as the banshee comes out it just ends. After that the evo chamber is not always soon enough (especially on close air positions) and hellion drops + banshees just ruin my day. I often just end up going for the second bust with a smaller army to deal enough damage but by then I have no more econ and my army is dead :/. Do you have any advice against this type of play? (In perspective to this build but also to zerg in general).
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I'd find it really useful if there was a follow-up thread to this that explained how to react if things go a bit wrong. (2 rax or banshees scouted). This info is really nice to try out though. I'll continue using it for the rest of today and see if i find any bumps in it
Thank you
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On November 05 2011 18:56 Rykyu wrote: I've been trying this build out with a lot of success now, just one question, how do you react to banshee + hellion builds [as in commiting banshee hellion not just 1 - 2], I realize the first push punishes them a bit but as soon as the banshee comes out it just ends. After that the evo chamber is not always soon enough (especially on close air positions) and hellion drops + banshees just ruin my day. I often just end up going for the second bust with a smaller army to deal enough damage but by then I have no more econ and my army is dead :/. Do you have any advice against this type of play? (In perspective to this build but also to zerg in general). Banshees should come out too late to help too much. Your ling/roach push should kill a player who goes for banshees. By the time they have more than 1-2 hellions, you will have your 8 roaches out.
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I tried to use this style in my ZvT on ladder for a week. I'm a low/mid master on the EU server.
And ... it just don't work ><
Most of terrans just spot the all-in with early gaz and when i come with roach + speedling they got bunker with maraudeur and defend with hélion, maradeur and scv. I just die when the terran counter :/
I don't see how it can works. I just won a few times with this build against "blind" Terran (doing a build without any scout).
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durrrr plays SC2 now?
Looks interesting though
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On November 08 2011 18:20 Magus.423 wrote: I tried to use this style in my ZvT on ladder for a week. I'm a low/mid master on the EU server.
And ... it just don't work ><
Most of terrans just spot the all-in with early gaz and when i come with roach + speedling they got bunker with maraudeur and defend with hélion, maradeur and scv. I just die when the terran counter :/
I don't see how it can works. I just won a few times with this build against "blind" Terran (doing a build without any scout). If you see crazy bunkers, don't push into it and die? Fall back to your base and continue the build, your next attack will be that much stronger and you'll have a small defense force for any counter push.
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I know. I don't push and i back. And then i'm behind in economy. If a prepare the second push i'm still behind and i still can't push. And then the terran is as 200 pop before me, he push and i'm dead.
Maybe i'm missing something or maybe i just can't play this style, but it don't works with me :/
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Siege Tanks on the high ground would wreak havoc to all your half-early and midgame pushes.
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On November 08 2011 23:14 Morghaine wrote: Siege Tanks on the high ground would wreak havoc to all your half-early and midgame pushes. Players don't typically have seige tanks by 7:15 for the first push, and for the second one you'd be surprised how well ling/bane/roach performs against seige tank/marine armies!
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On November 08 2011 23:14 Morghaine wrote: Siege Tanks on the high ground would wreak havoc to all your half-early and midgame pushes.
Some replays (Sterling for example) show the contrary. Terrans usually don't have siege mode for the first push, and the composition of the second push negates the enormous advantage that are tanks on the high ground. It's surprising how resilient roaches are when there are only a few tanks (4 or less)
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On November 08 2011 22:12 Magus.423 wrote: I know. I don't push and i back. And then i'm behind in economy. If a prepare the second push i'm still behind and i still can't push. And then the terran is as 200 pop before me, he push and i'm dead.
Maybe i'm missing something or maybe i just can't play this style, but it don't works with me :/ Probably need to refine the timings a bit, make sure you're getting your push to his base at the right time and transitioning into drones and saturating your bases properly.
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Hi Tang, I use your build a lot, however I am a bit lost when transitioning into the third barrel. Although I pretty much hit the timings you layed out, I have a lot of floating money which I don't know how to spend. Just getting my third and upgrades isn't enough to spend everything. Should I just keep pumping units? I'd love to see a replay where you get to the third barrel, all the replays you've provided didn't get to that point.
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Hi there!
So, after half a dozen games against the AI to perfect the timings, and half a dozen play on the ladder, I've reached a certain nuumber of conclusions : - the second push timing is absolutely beautiful. The upgrades, the perfect use of resources, etc... - the opening is horribly greedy (15 hatch/16 gas/15 pool?) - there is no way your 3rd part is serious. The only thing that are worth it are taking the 3rd, getting another evo chamber and teching to hive. It's much more preferable to do another push before ultralisks that just take forever to make (I don't mean they're bad, I mean that I must be floating lots of minerals during the wait for hive+ultralisk cavern, I could max out a lot sooner and push, with infestors/roach/ling for example) - it works pretty well against protoss (if they expanded before the first push) and of course fails in ZvZ
All in all, thanks Tang! A relly nice build that is probably my ZvT and ZvP go-to build (I'm random, so it's hard to master a lot of them)
Edit : Is there even a replay that display the ultralisk push?
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On November 09 2011 13:18 fezvez wrote: Hi there!
So, after half a dozen games against the AI to perfect the timings, and half a dozen play on the ladder, I've reached a certain nuumber of conclusions : - the second push timing is absolutely beautiful. The upgrades, the perfect use of resources, etc... - the opening is horribly greedy (15 hatch/16 gas/15 pool?) - there is no way your 3rd part is serious. The only thing that are worth it are taking the 3rd, getting another evo chamber and teching to hive. It's much more preferable to do another push before ultralisks that just take forever to make (I don't mean they're bad, I mean that I must be floating lots of minerals during the wait for hive+ultralisk cavern, I could max out a lot sooner and push, with infestors/roach/ling for example) - it works pretty well against protoss (if they expanded before the first push) and of course fails in ZvZ
All in all, thanks Tang! A relly nice build that is probably my ZvT and ZvP go-to build (I'm random, so it's hard to master a lot of them)
Edit : Is there even a replay that display the ultralisk push?
It's just a general guideline for how to approach the lategame, I think moving into heavy upgrades with ling/bane/ultra/roach is a reasonable maxed out army to continue the aggression. Most of my games end with the second push I don't often make it to the 18+Minute mark
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On November 09 2011 12:35 Qxz wrote: Hi Tang, I use your build a lot, however I am a bit lost when transitioning into the third barrel. Although I pretty much hit the timings you layed out, I have a lot of floating money which I don't know how to spend. Just getting my third and upgrades isn't enough to spend everything. Should I just keep pumping units? I'd love to see a replay where you get to the third barrel, all the replays you've provided didn't get to that point.
If you're floating, it's likely the timing of your queens / hatcheries / injects. Try to build macro hatches, additional queens to spit, and really mass those lings/roaches/ultras/banes to keep money low.
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I used to try out some of your stuff when I was a young noobling and some of it worked, but it gets boring very quickly. I wouldn`t recommend any new, or lower league Zerg to read this and adapt to this play. Your games always ends up being throwing stuff at your enemy in a desperate fashion.
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I tried this out a bit with some good results, but drop play was a real problem for me. Other than that it seemed quite good.
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On November 10 2011 08:14 GeuRiMo wrote: I used to try out some of your stuff when I was a young noobling and some of it worked, but it gets boring very quickly. I wouldn`t recommend any new, or lower league Zerg to read this and adapt to this play. Your games always ends up being throwing stuff at your enemy in a desperate fashion.
It's not at all that way if you take the time to structure and perfect your build orders! The point of multiple aggressive timing attacks is the execution greatly increases your mechanical skills: Larva injects, unit production, rally points, unit control, multitasking, etc.
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I love this build more than I loved my playstation 2 as a child. The early timings are so perfect that when everything is executed properly that there really is no reason whatsoever not to use this build to punish greedy Terrans, and even FFE Toss. The roaches usually hit right when warpgate finishes researching, leaving one or two sentries for forcefields before you get free reign. Even if they manage to defend, behind this I usually switch to a more macro oriented play, so by the time the eventual counterattack rolls around (if you fail), you've already got your third rolling along and the time to have scouted everything the Toss is doing, and thus prepare.
After watching your lecture at Waterloo, I'm wondering if we can expect any more of these fantastic class/lecture/posts on TL? For a plat zerg looking to be more aggressive, you are like Buddha. Just not as fat.
Any chance we can see some muta timings that you've cooked up? My earliest muta build hits around 10-11 minutes with anywhere between 6 and 12 mutas, which just doesn't seem to accomplish the purpose of fast and hard aggression.
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On November 10 2011 19:55 Satallgeese wrote: I love this build more than I loved my playstation 2 as a child. The early timings are so perfect that when everything is executed properly that there really is no reason whatsoever not to use this build to punish greedy Terrans, and even FFE Toss. The roaches usually hit right when warpgate finishes researching, leaving one or two sentries for forcefields before you get free reign. Even if they manage to defend, behind this I usually switch to a more macro oriented play, so by the time the eventual counterattack rolls around (if you fail), you've already got your third rolling along and the time to have scouted everything the Toss is doing, and thus prepare.
After watching your lecture at Waterloo, I'm wondering if we can expect any more of these fantastic class/lecture/posts on TL? For a plat zerg looking to be more aggressive, you are like Buddha. Just not as fat.
Any chance we can see some muta timings that you've cooked up? My earliest muta build hits around 10-11 minutes with anywhere between 6 and 12 mutas, which just doesn't seem to accomplish the purpose of fast and hard aggression.
I'll be focusing doing another aggressive zerg lecture next Tuesday on a more calculated, less all-in style of aggressive zerg.
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On October 30 2011 06:29 Markwerf wrote: please stop naming stupid tactics after yourself, it's just irritating.
I think you should try it before flaming it.
Tried it, seems to work really well, unless they know what is coming. (in my 3rd game against a friend, he bunkered up pretty heavily, and I couldn't kill him.)
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On November 08 2011 18:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:durrrr plays SC2 now? Looks interesting though
durrr's aggression works because he has mastered the fundamentals of the game and has a deep understanding of the standard and non-standard lines his opponents might take in every scenario. blind cheese in sc2 doesn't exactly require much thought.
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stop misleading people thinking you are a gm when you are clearly not and all your builds are gimmicky
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On November 11 2011 03:04 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:durrrr plays SC2 now? Looks interesting though durrr's aggression works because he has mastered the fundamentals of the game and has a deep understanding of the standard and non-standard lines his opponents might take in every scenario. blind cheese in sc2 doesn't exactly require much thought. Agreed, that's why it's important to have clear, planned transitions to all your aggressive attacks.
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My first thought when I saw this build is that it looked like a zerg 1/1/1 all-in style, which relied on terran not being able to figure which combination of units beats the roaches. I've watched the replays now, and I do think that your opponents don't react properly when they see a lot of roaches, but that's definitely not a fault of your build or playstyle.
I realized after watching your replays that this is a reactive style which exploits certain timing attacks, which is awesome. For example, one game you saw your opponent get a fast starport to get drops in response to your roach-based armies. You immediately put down a spire and kicked out a pack of mutas. That was probably the moment which turned me onto this build. I noticed that you make subtle deviations here and there based on how the game goes, would you be able to elaborate on how this can be a reactive style?
Also, I just wanted your opinion on something. Do you think that this is a standard style which can't be metagamed? Would you do this every game of a a Bo3/5/7 in a tournament? I can't think of something which would excel against this style, but maybe 1 rax in base cc into 3 rax heavy upgrades and 2 fact tanks on 2 base. Or maybe even pure mech so the hellions get the sling/bling and the tanks take the roaches? Perhaps you have friends who metagame your build on ladder?
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I love doing the first attack you have there, I do it almost exactly the same. If for that first push you attack with the roaches as soon as they pop and rally in the lings, you can get in a little quicker, and sometimes you can just bust with the roaches, then a few seconds later get the lings it, I like doing it that way better, it feels stronger to me.
Having both the lings and the roaches always felt clunky to me, for the early push, but that is just me.
Good build though, gotta love aggressive zerg !
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On November 11 2011 22:24 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:04 tskarzyn wrote:On November 08 2011 18:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:durrrr plays SC2 now? Looks interesting though durrr's aggression works because he has mastered the fundamentals of the game and has a deep understanding of the standard and non-standard lines his opponents might take in every scenario. blind cheese in sc2 doesn't exactly require much thought. Agreed, that's why it's important to have clear, planned transitions to all your aggressive attacks.
Which with a build like this is hard to do and puts you severely behind if you don't do any damage and he defends perfectly you are going to lose if he plays correctly, the higher level players you play the more you will realize this.
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On November 12 2011 04:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 22:24 TangSC wrote:On November 11 2011 03:04 tskarzyn wrote:On November 08 2011 18:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:durrrr plays SC2 now? Looks interesting though durrr's aggression works because he has mastered the fundamentals of the game and has a deep understanding of the standard and non-standard lines his opponents might take in every scenario. blind cheese in sc2 doesn't exactly require much thought. Agreed, that's why it's important to have clear, planned transitions to all your aggressive attacks. Which with a build like this is hard to do and puts you severely behind if you don't do any damage and he defends perfectly you are going to lose if he plays correctly, the higher level players you play the more you will realize this.
Hard to do? This build is designed specifically to help players learn to transition :S You're not severely behind if you don't engage with your first push, as shown in the replay against Painuser and a few of the others. The more you actually try this style and learn to play aggressive, the more you will realize it's a powerful and viable style of play.
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On November 12 2011 21:56 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:44 blade55555 wrote:On November 11 2011 22:24 TangSC wrote:On November 11 2011 03:04 tskarzyn wrote:On November 08 2011 18:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:durrrr plays SC2 now? Looks interesting though durrr's aggression works because he has mastered the fundamentals of the game and has a deep understanding of the standard and non-standard lines his opponents might take in every scenario. blind cheese in sc2 doesn't exactly require much thought. Agreed, that's why it's important to have clear, planned transitions to all your aggressive attacks. Which with a build like this is hard to do and puts you severely behind if you don't do any damage and he defends perfectly you are going to lose if he plays correctly, the higher level players you play the more you will realize this. Hard to do? This build is designed specifically to help players learn to transition :S You're not severely behind if you don't engage with your first push, as shown in the replay against Painuser and a few of the others. The more you actually try this style and learn to play aggressive, the more you will realize it's a powerful and viable style of play.
I never said hard to do this build but it puts you behind economically vs a good terran lol. That is so much larva wasted so early (especially at 7:45...) your tech is behind (muta or if you like infestors infestors) his timing attack can come 2 minutes later and will kill you if you are droning to try and catch up on economy.
My first thought when I saw this build is that it looked like a zerg 1/1/1 all-in style, which relied on terran not being able to figure which combination of units beats the roaches. I've watched the replays now, and I do think that your opponents don't react properly when they see a lot of roaches, but that's definitely not a fault of your build or playstyle.
I realized after watching your replays that this is a reactive style which exploits certain timing attacks, which is awesome. For example, one game you saw your opponent get a fast starport to get drops in response to your roach-based armies. You immediately put down a spire and kicked out a pack of mutas. That was probably the moment which turned me onto this build. I noticed that you make subtle deviations here and there based on how the game goes, would you be able to elaborate on how this can be a reactive style?
Also, I just wanted your opinion on something. Do you think that this is a standard style which can't be metagamed? Would you do this every game of a a Bo3/5/7 in a tournament? I can't think of something which would excel against this style, but maybe 1 rax in base cc into 3 rax heavy upgrades and 2 fact tanks on 2 base. Or maybe even pure mech so the hellions get the sling/bling and the tanks take the roaches? Perhaps you have friends who metagame your build on ladder?
I am going to answer that question of yours about standard style. No this can not be a standard style (doing it every game in a bo5 for example) yes your opponent can punish this build very hard. If you are making units to attack at 7:45 but then retreat because he has the proper army, if you drone to much you will die to his push that comes 2 minutes later (a typical terran timing attack I face is 9:30-10 minutes). He will have stim, siege tanks and you won't have any higher tech then roach/ling/baneling (don't think baneling speed will be done either, especially if you delay lair with this build).
Its a good ladder build until you play people who know you only do this style (which isn't very common to play the same people a ton in a row or something I still play a lot of players I haven't heard of on NA server).
Also note the higher tier players you play the more you will see the weaknesses in this build, especially if they see you are making units and how far behind you will be if they see it coming and defend properly.
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So, you're still advocating doing an all-in, and then transitioning into 2 more allins after the first one? I don't think this is a good "guide" for players to follow if they want to learn ZvT or improve as a player.
You can get some nice "ladder" wins though, aka imaginary points that mean nothing and just boost your ego.
All the Terran has to do is leave 2 bunkers up at his natural and you are way behind every game.
edit: ah, blade above me said similar. It's not a "build," it's just all-in, transitioning into another all-in, transitioning into another all-in. Like blade said as well, it's nice to acquire imaginary ladder points that mean nothing and temporarily boost your ego, but it's not going to help you improve as a player.
Also, the reason this is not a "build" is because everything, like most all-ins, hinges on you doing damage with the first all-in to either drone behind, or just follow it up with another...you're just throwing units at your opponent and basically hoping it works. If an all-in succeeds, you can essentially do whatever the hell you want after that, you don't need to write an entire guide for what you specifically do after all-inning lol.
You might catch off guard some players better than yourself on ladder with this while they are practicing different things, but in a tournament someone is just going to build 2 bunkers against you and essentially freewin.
With that said, this is a great "build" for people to boost their egos temporarily.
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also plz stop to spam every public bnet channel with ur free coaching thingy, its very annoying and made me leave the NA server today. when i hopped on europe and noticed your sitting thre in every public channels, i just had to leave them in order not to flame you. i dont kow if you are just trolling there and want ppl to get angry or if you are actually serious.
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On November 13 2011 09:03 avilo wrote: Also, the reason this is not a "build" is because everything, like most all-ins, hinges on you doing damage with the first all-in to either drone behind, or just follow it up with another...you're just throwing units at your opponent and basically hoping it works. If an all-in succeeds, you can essentially do whatever the hell you want after that, you don't need to write an entire guide for what you specifically do after all-inning lol.
I'm not taking any sides in this argument but...
Creating any unit in the game in the early/mid game essentially means you're putting yourself behind because they're not drones. Making units early on and attacking isn't a bad thing to try though. I don't agree you should do it every game but players saying you shouldn't at all are wrong.
I mean there's nothing wrong with being passive, but there's nothing wrong with being aggressive either. I don't agree that players should blindly do any kinda aggressive build without scouting because players can counter it. And the only reason you could get away with doing an all in without scouting is if you're abusing the meta game or getting lucky.
Players will have different aims and goals while playing starcraft, some to achieve ladder points and some to get better at the game ect... These aggressive/ all in builds can be good for any aim/goal if the player approaches the style in the right way.
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Has some similarities to another build I read a long time ago, by JEcho? I know roach/ling/bling is nothing new but it reminded me of it Same idea with the +1 lining up with Bane speed/roach speed, but contingent on whether or not the T actually expanded; at the same time grab your third + spire. Back then it didn't receive such a chilly reception haha
edit: found the old thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=225571
Also, thanks for the writeup. For the vast vast majority of players who play extremely casually it's not a bad place to start to learn timings, line up larvae injects etc. With the popularity of hellion openers this always guarantees you don't die straight up lol, and some pushes still come around that time, in which you'll need units anyway.
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This is cool stuff, I like the idea of barely getting saturation and using roaches to be more aggressive.
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On November 13 2011 08:39 blade55555 wrote: I am going to answer that question of yours about standard style. No this can not be a standard style (doing it every game in a bo5 for example) yes your opponent can punish this build very hard. If you are making units to attack at 7:45 but then retreat because he has the proper army, if you drone to much you will die to his push that comes 2 minutes later (a typical terran timing attack I face is 9:30-10 minutes). He will have stim, siege tanks and you won't have any higher tech then roach/ling/baneling (don't think baneling speed will be done either, especially if you delay lair with this build).
Its a good ladder build until you play people who know you only do this style (which isn't very common to play the same people a ton in a row or something I still play a lot of players I haven't heard of on NA server).
Also note the higher tier players you play the more you will see the weaknesses in this build, especially if they see you are making units and how far behind you will be if they see it coming and defend properly.
I agree with you. I was asking because I wanted Tang's opinion on this; I don't see this to be a style which could be a standard style or win a Bo5 with every game. I'm not sure exactly what the opponents do wrong, but there were games (like against Avilo) where there were a lot of bunkers and Tang still managed to pull off the win. In my opinion, the problem is likely a combination of not scouting roaches and the fact that roaches do well against the hellions that the opponents produced in all of these games. I think marines in bunkers alone could hold the first all in and marine/tank should be able to handle the rest.
This style doesn't exploit the macro advantages of the zerg race to their fullest either. I think that it might be incorrect to go for the 3 tank timing attack at 10 minutes. Just expand and then mass tanks and expand again. If the opponent commits to an engagement at any point, the terran should come out pretty far ahead. Terran doesn't need to attack because zerg isn't taking a lot of bases, powering drones or teching. Why bother attacking if you're already ahead?
Anyhow, I would still like to see what Tang thinks if he sees this
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On November 13 2011 15:36 Fuhrmaaj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 08:39 blade55555 wrote: I am going to answer that question of yours about standard style. No this can not be a standard style (doing it every game in a bo5 for example) yes your opponent can punish this build very hard. If you are making units to attack at 7:45 but then retreat because he has the proper army, if you drone to much you will die to his push that comes 2 minutes later (a typical terran timing attack I face is 9:30-10 minutes). He will have stim, siege tanks and you won't have any higher tech then roach/ling/baneling (don't think baneling speed will be done either, especially if you delay lair with this build).
Its a good ladder build until you play people who know you only do this style (which isn't very common to play the same people a ton in a row or something I still play a lot of players I haven't heard of on NA server).
Also note the higher tier players you play the more you will see the weaknesses in this build, especially if they see you are making units and how far behind you will be if they see it coming and defend properly. I agree with you. I was asking because I wanted Tang's opinion on this; I don't see this to be a style which could be a standard style or win a Bo5 with every game. I'm not sure exactly what the opponents do wrong, but there were games (like against Avilo) where there were a lot of bunkers and Tang still managed to pull off the win. In my opinion, the problem is likely a combination of not scouting roaches and the fact that roaches do well against the hellions that the opponents produced in all of these games. I think marines in bunkers alone could hold the first all in and marine/tank should be able to handle the rest. This style doesn't exploit the macro advantages of the zerg race to their fullest either. I think that it might be incorrect to go for the 3 tank timing attack at 10 minutes. Just expand and then mass tanks and expand again. If the opponent commits to an engagement at any point, the terran should come out pretty far ahead. Terran doesn't need to attack because zerg isn't taking a lot of bases, powering drones or teching. Why bother attacking if you're already ahead? Anyhow, I would still like to see what Tang thinks if he sees this
Oh I agree the better response for the terran would be to macro a bigger army and take another base and just secure his win because odds are zergs who do attacks like it normally will do another so why not just guarantee the win? I completely agree but if you are trying to go into a macro game after this fails and he does that push you lose due to droning and not making units, and if you make units and he doesn't attack well you are even further behind then before because you had already sacrificed so many drones and sacrificing more in hopes to take down his follow up attack is a huge risk.
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On November 13 2011 09:13 Bad_Habit wrote: also plz stop to spam every public bnet channel with ur free coaching thingy, its very annoying and made me leave the NA server today. when i hopped on europe and noticed your sitting thre in every public channels, i just had to leave them in order not to flame you. i dont kow if you are just trolling there and want ppl to get angry or if you are actually serious.
This is funny from a guy coming from GM by rushing haha (not trying to say that rushing takes no skill, not trying to attack you, not trying to be offensive, etc. just FYI) but anyways pretty sure he's serious since coaching gets you money and money is srs bznz =O
Anyway I agree i don't think this is a good way for newer zergs to learn, I mean I think one reason why people like zerg is cus it's reactionary and you don't need "build orders"
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i'm been in the shadows lurking every tangsc thread and thinking of a reason why "higher" level people bash his aggressive builds. My thoughts are:
(1) People consider that his builds are only "all-in", meaning that his attacks have only one goal: cripple the enemy. Yes he can macro behind it, but if his all-in fails he is already at a disadvantage and has to play behind.
(2) Some good builds/openings use timing attacks in order to either take map control, tech up, or expand. So if you don't end the game you are ahead or in a good position. His builds don't do something useful enough behind the aggression that he does.
(3) However, from my experience, reactive all-ins are good/strong since it exploits a certain weakness in the build of the opponent. An example of this is when you roach ling or baneling bust a 1 rax cc terran.
So why don't people like Tang's builds? Are Tang's builds: 1. Blind All-in 2. Blind timing attacks that don't help you get ahead unless you cripple the opponent 3. Reactive all-in 4. Good valid one game strategies that can be used but aren't jump off points for macroing/improving your game
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On November 13 2011 09:03 avilo wrote: So, you're still advocating doing an all-in, and then transitioning into 2 more allins after the first one? I don't think this is a good "guide" for players to follow if they want to learn ZvT or improve as a player.
You can get some nice "ladder" wins though, aka imaginary points that mean nothing and just boost your ego.
All the Terran has to do is leave 2 bunkers up at his natural and you are way behind every game.
edit: ah, blade above me said similar. It's not a "build," it's just all-in, transitioning into another all-in, transitioning into another all-in. Like blade said as well, it's nice to acquire imaginary ladder points that mean nothing and temporarily boost your ego, but it's not going to help you improve as a player.
Also, the reason this is not a "build" is because everything, like most all-ins, hinges on you doing damage with the first all-in to either drone behind, or just follow it up with another...you're just throwing units at your opponent and basically hoping it works. If an all-in succeeds, you can essentially do whatever the hell you want after that, you don't need to write an entire guide for what you specifically do after all-inning lol.
You might catch off guard some players better than yourself on ladder with this while they are practicing different things, but in a tournament someone is just going to build 2 bunkers against you and essentially freewin.
With that said, this is a great "build" for people to boost their egos temporarily. Why would ladder be any different from a tournament? If it can catch a person off-guard on ladder, it can certainly do the same in a tournament.
Ladder points do matter, they are not "imaginary", and yes, they boost your ego. What's wrong with that? Having more confidence improves your play overall.
Yes, this build is easy to defend once you see it. However, if this is your first time playing against it, then it can win you games. It's like every other cheese. That said, cheeses can be useful to have in tournaments.
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On November 13 2011 18:08 pedsky wrote: i'm been in the shadows lurking every tangsc thread and thinking of a reason why "higher" level people bash his aggressive builds. My thoughts are:
(1) People consider that his builds are only "all-in", meaning that his attacks have only one goal: cripple the enemy. Yes he can macro behind it, but if his all-in fails he is already at a disadvantage and has to play behind.
(2) Some good builds/openings use timing attacks in order to either take map control, tech up, or expand. So if you don't end the game you are ahead or in a good position. His builds don't do something useful enough behind the aggression that he does.
(3) However, from my experience, reactive all-ins are good/strong since it exploits a certain weakness in the build of the opponent. An example of this is when you roach ling or baneling bust a 1 rax cc terran.
So why don't people like Tang's builds? Are Tang's builds: 1. Blind All-in 2. Blind timing attacks that don't help you get ahead unless you cripple the opponent 3. Reactive all-in 4. Good valid one game strategies that can be used but aren't jump off points for macroing/improving your game
For this one I chose number 2.
Am I right? did I win something?!
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On November 13 2011 18:30 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 18:08 pedsky wrote: i'm been in the shadows lurking every tangsc thread and thinking of a reason why "higher" level people bash his aggressive builds. My thoughts are:
(1) People consider that his builds are only "all-in", meaning that his attacks have only one goal: cripple the enemy. Yes he can macro behind it, but if his all-in fails he is already at a disadvantage and has to play behind.
(2) Some good builds/openings use timing attacks in order to either take map control, tech up, or expand. So if you don't end the game you are ahead or in a good position. His builds don't do something useful enough behind the aggression that he does.
(3) However, from my experience, reactive all-ins are good/strong since it exploits a certain weakness in the build of the opponent. An example of this is when you roach ling or baneling bust a 1 rax cc terran.
So why don't people like Tang's builds? Are Tang's builds: 1. Blind All-in 2. Blind timing attacks that don't help you get ahead unless you cripple the opponent 3. Reactive all-in 4. Good valid one game strategies that can be used but aren't jump off points for macroing/improving your game For this one I chose number 2. Am I right? did I win something?!
You win my blessing!
On November 13 2011 17:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 09:13 Bad_Habit wrote: also plz stop to spam every public bnet channel with ur free coaching thingy, its very annoying and made me leave the NA server today. when i hopped on europe and noticed your sitting thre in every public channels, i just had to leave them in order not to flame you. i dont kow if you are just trolling there and want ppl to get angry or if you are actually serious. This is funny from a guy coming from GM by rushing haha (not trying to say that rushing takes no skill, not trying to attack you, not trying to be offensive, etc. just FYI) but anyways pretty sure he's serious since coaching gets you money and money is srs bznz =O Anyway I agree i don't think this is a good way for newer zergs to learn, I mean I think one reason why people like zerg is cus it's reactionary and you don't need "build orders"
I disagree. Zergs have build orders in all match ups. The early game is a reactionary part that I can agree but once you hit lair tech its really up to you on what you want to go and you should always have a plan like infestors, muta/ling/bane, etc . I just disagree with your statement saying they dont' need "build orders" because a zerg playing without a build and just playing reactionary is playing wrong imo.
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On November 13 2011 09:13 Bad_Habit wrote: also plz stop to spam every public bnet channel with ur free coaching thingy, its very annoying and made me leave the NA server today. when i hopped on europe and noticed your sitting thre in every public channels, i just had to leave them in order not to flame you. i dont kow if you are just trolling there and want ppl to get angry or if you are actually serious. i love how he never responds to any of these posts. its quite depressing.
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On November 13 2011 18:28 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 09:03 avilo wrote: So, you're still advocating doing an all-in, and then transitioning into 2 more allins after the first one? I don't think this is a good "guide" for players to follow if they want to learn ZvT or improve as a player.
You can get some nice "ladder" wins though, aka imaginary points that mean nothing and just boost your ego.
All the Terran has to do is leave 2 bunkers up at his natural and you are way behind every game.
edit: ah, blade above me said similar. It's not a "build," it's just all-in, transitioning into another all-in, transitioning into another all-in. Like blade said as well, it's nice to acquire imaginary ladder points that mean nothing and temporarily boost your ego, but it's not going to help you improve as a player.
Also, the reason this is not a "build" is because everything, like most all-ins, hinges on you doing damage with the first all-in to either drone behind, or just follow it up with another...you're just throwing units at your opponent and basically hoping it works. If an all-in succeeds, you can essentially do whatever the hell you want after that, you don't need to write an entire guide for what you specifically do after all-inning lol.
You might catch off guard some players better than yourself on ladder with this while they are practicing different things, but in a tournament someone is just going to build 2 bunkers against you and essentially freewin.
With that said, this is a great "build" for people to boost their egos temporarily. Why would ladder be any different from a tournament? If it can catch a person off-guard on ladder, it can certainly do the same in a tournament. Ladder points do matter, they are not "imaginary", and yes, they boost your ego. What's wrong with that? Having more confidence improves your play overall. Yes, this build is easy to defend once you see it. However, if this is your first time playing against it, then it can win you games. It's like every other cheese. That said, cheeses can be useful to have in tournaments.
When you're on ladder you're typically playing people you don't recognize, so they won't know your specific styles. If you continually play the Playhem Dailies everyone is going to know you as a cheeser. I lost to Tang the first time we played because I had no clue of his strats. Unfortunately haven't had a chance to play again, but if we do, I would just pick a build that sacrifices a bit of econ for safety, and force him to beat me in a macro game.
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Some things I've found really useful when doing this build :
If you scout a bunker up or no expand and you want to do damage with your first push throw down a banenest and kill the depot with your roaches and run your banes into the bunker. If the Terran has scvs around the bunker you'll kill those easily and the bunker too.
If the Terran expands after a hellion push I tend to just win the game with roach and lings
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On November 13 2011 15:36 Fuhrmaaj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 08:39 blade55555 wrote: I am going to answer that question of yours about standard style. No this can not be a standard style (doing it every game in a bo5 for example) yes your opponent can punish this build very hard. If you are making units to attack at 7:45 but then retreat because he has the proper army, if you drone to much you will die to his push that comes 2 minutes later (a typical terran timing attack I face is 9:30-10 minutes). He will have stim, siege tanks and you won't have any higher tech then roach/ling/baneling (don't think baneling speed will be done either, especially if you delay lair with this build).
Its a good ladder build until you play people who know you only do this style (which isn't very common to play the same people a ton in a row or something I still play a lot of players I haven't heard of on NA server).
Also note the higher tier players you play the more you will see the weaknesses in this build, especially if they see you are making units and how far behind you will be if they see it coming and defend properly. I agree with you. I was asking because I wanted Tang's opinion on this; I don't see this to be a style which could be a standard style or win a Bo5 with every game. I'm not sure exactly what the opponents do wrong, but there were games (like against Avilo) where there were a lot of bunkers and Tang still managed to pull off the win. In my opinion, the problem is likely a combination of not scouting roaches and the fact that roaches do well against the hellions that the opponents produced in all of these games. I think marines in bunkers alone could hold the first all in and marine/tank should be able to handle the rest. This style doesn't exploit the macro advantages of the zerg race to their fullest either. I think that it might be incorrect to go for the 3 tank timing attack at 10 minutes. Just expand and then mass tanks and expand again. If the opponent commits to an engagement at any point, the terran should come out pretty far ahead. Terran doesn't need to attack because zerg isn't taking a lot of bases, powering drones or teching. Why bother attacking if you're already ahead? Anyhow, I would still like to see what Tang thinks if he sees this
I honestly think you could do the roach/ling opening in every BO5 and win, as long as you have solid transitions and game-sense. You can also do things like open DRG style 7roach aggression while taking a fast third, or doing a 16hatch opening into macro, etc. to mix it up/metagame in a BO5. I don't think people's goal as an SC2 player should be to create a single build/style to use in every game that beats everything, in my eyes much stronger to be flexible zerg like Nestea than a straight-up macro zerg.
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I would like to quote a very interesting post from Belial88 in a post about counters to hellion openings
+ Show Spoiler +On November 15 2011 18:16 Belial88 wrote: It'd be really helpful if you supplied replays.
Against reactor hellion, you should always sac an overlord. While 90% of the time it's just standard macro follow-up into rine/tank jazz, if they throw an extra factory down, you need to know and an overlord will see it, as if they commit to hellions, they won't have more than 2 marines and you should get a clue (double gas, tech lab fact, no marines, no tech lab on rax, etc).
Against reactor hellion my response is 2-3 spines. You can come really far ahead in economy against reactor hellion if they do zero damage and make more than 2 hellions.
DRG also has a cute build where at 28 supply, you throw a roach warren down. This relies on you making gas at least at 20 (or continue mining it after speedling opening), and you don't make any more drones (or a few, depending how aggressive you want to be) and push with ~10 roaches popping all at once. Generally you throw down that 28 warren, make 3 overlords, make like 10 roaches with 750/250 banked up and the supply clear at 28/44. If the terran made more than 4 hellions, he WILL take damage, and if he makes too many hellions or no bunkers with marauders quickly pumped out, he will straight up die.
Now I think it's an unreliable, coinflip build. For a short while I always did it against rax/gas, but if Terran only makes 2 hellions, you will get fucking crushed and be soooo far behind since you only have around 23 drones in all of this. You can also end up behind even if he makes lots of hellions, and when you push out he simply swaps and makes a tank and marauder and bunker in time when you arrive, particularly on larger maps. It's a good coinflip though, you'll almost always at least break even, if not come out ahead. Another problem is that your first roaches won't come out in time to meet the first 2-4 hellions, so you will loser drones if you don't make 2-3 spines the same time you make a warren, which further hurts your econ (you could transfer all of them right when warren pops, and then retransfer back to natural when roaches pop to make sure no hellion damage, the timing is very tight).
Anyways, I stopped doing it because I realized "holy shit if I just make 1 spine and add 2 more incrementally and purely drone up, I will be way ahead of a hellion expand". So whatever.
You absolutely need roaches if he has double factory or blue flame. You can confirm this just with an overlord sac, which you MUST do. Always confirm what's going on behind a hellion expand! (Or reaper expand too, he could just not be expanding and going 5 rax reaper, that will kill you if you dont have 5+ roaches out, spines and ling/bane dont hold it even, even after the nerfs).
Also, if he has 'too many hellions' than you are used to seeing (your masters, you should have that sense by now) then get a roach warren and a few spines. You should be able to intuitively tell that "whoa thats more hellions than from a hellion expand, something isn't right here".
3 spines holds off any hellion opening long enough for you to identify 'hey thats' 20 fucking hellions in front of my base' to which you make 2 more, and 5 is enough to really hold anything. There's a game with idra vs.... someone, I think at mlg, where they go triple reactor hellion (i think mkp? i dont recall) and he actually waited for mutas (yea that long) and relied on something like 5-6 spines. Spines do really well against hellions.
I recommend you make a 3nd queen at least before 30 supply, and have her sit on the ramp against hellion play, so if he tries to run up the ramp, you can call your other 2 queens over to block it. Hellion play is largely about getting up the ramp, with 3 queens you should never have hellions run up unless you aren't paying attention, to which it's your own fault.
Approved by DRG!
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On November 16 2011 00:47 fezvez wrote:I would like to quote a very interesting post from Belial88 in a post about counters to hellion openings + Show Spoiler +On November 15 2011 18:16 Belial88 wrote: It'd be really helpful if you supplied replays.
Against reactor hellion, you should always sac an overlord. While 90% of the time it's just standard macro follow-up into rine/tank jazz, if they throw an extra factory down, you need to know and an overlord will see it, as if they commit to hellions, they won't have more than 2 marines and you should get a clue (double gas, tech lab fact, no marines, no tech lab on rax, etc).
Against reactor hellion my response is 2-3 spines. You can come really far ahead in economy against reactor hellion if they do zero damage and make more than 2 hellions.
DRG also has a cute build where at 28 supply, you throw a roach warren down. This relies on you making gas at least at 20 (or continue mining it after speedling opening), and you don't make any more drones (or a few, depending how aggressive you want to be) and push with ~10 roaches popping all at once. Generally you throw down that 28 warren, make 3 overlords, make like 10 roaches with 750/250 banked up and the supply clear at 28/44. If the terran made more than 4 hellions, he WILL take damage, and if he makes too many hellions or no bunkers with marauders quickly pumped out, he will straight up die.
Now I think it's an unreliable, coinflip build. For a short while I always did it against rax/gas, but if Terran only makes 2 hellions, you will get fucking crushed and be soooo far behind since you only have around 23 drones in all of this. You can also end up behind even if he makes lots of hellions, and when you push out he simply swaps and makes a tank and marauder and bunker in time when you arrive, particularly on larger maps. It's a good coinflip though, you'll almost always at least break even, if not come out ahead. Another problem is that your first roaches won't come out in time to meet the first 2-4 hellions, so you will loser drones if you don't make 2-3 spines the same time you make a warren, which further hurts your econ (you could transfer all of them right when warren pops, and then retransfer back to natural when roaches pop to make sure no hellion damage, the timing is very tight).
Anyways, I stopped doing it because I realized "holy shit if I just make 1 spine and add 2 more incrementally and purely drone up, I will be way ahead of a hellion expand". So whatever.
You absolutely need roaches if he has double factory or blue flame. You can confirm this just with an overlord sac, which you MUST do. Always confirm what's going on behind a hellion expand! (Or reaper expand too, he could just not be expanding and going 5 rax reaper, that will kill you if you dont have 5+ roaches out, spines and ling/bane dont hold it even, even after the nerfs).
Also, if he has 'too many hellions' than you are used to seeing (your masters, you should have that sense by now) then get a roach warren and a few spines. You should be able to intuitively tell that "whoa thats more hellions than from a hellion expand, something isn't right here".
3 spines holds off any hellion opening long enough for you to identify 'hey thats' 20 fucking hellions in front of my base' to which you make 2 more, and 5 is enough to really hold anything. There's a game with idra vs.... someone, I think at mlg, where they go triple reactor hellion (i think mkp? i dont recall) and he actually waited for mutas (yea that long) and relied on something like 5-6 spines. Spines do really well against hellions.
I recommend you make a 3nd queen at least before 30 supply, and have her sit on the ramp against hellion play, so if he tries to run up the ramp, you can call your other 2 queens over to block it. Hellion play is largely about getting up the ramp, with 3 queens you should never have hellions run up unless you aren't paying attention, to which it's your own fault. Approved by DRG! Very interesting post! I open roaches almost every time my opponent opens hellions because it gives me the option to pressure back.
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That SC2 planner is kind of cool, you can use YABOT for that kind of planning also. Perfecting your builds down to the second is so important for consistency and I recommend everyone spend a bit more time planning.
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On November 13 2011 21:10 Chackle wrote: Some things I've found really useful when doing this build :
If you scout a bunker up or no expand and you want to do damage with your first push throw down a banenest and kill the depot with your roaches and run your banes into the bunker. If the Terran has scvs around the bunker you'll kill those easily and the bunker too.
If the Terran expands after a hellion push I tend to just win the game with roach and lings
Interestingly, I've been working on a style that builds a baneling nest right after you start the 8 roaches. Then, when you're streaming in zerglings onto the roaches you turn 6 into banelings to bust the bunker/workers. It has been very effective so-far, but it is more of an economic commitment and cuts into your mid-game drone saturation.
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7:15 :S how do you scout this and defend it as terran? Seems like a really strong timing, just the 8 roaches would be hard let alone the lings.
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Thanks you so much for this!! Such strong aggression and crisp timings
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In the games I've been successful so far using this type of style I have a little trouble hammering out my transitions. Sometimes I don't do a lot of damage, but at the same time I haven't sacrificed all my units and begin droning very heavily.
Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case.
In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust?
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On December 01 2011 08:15 Snuggles wrote: In the games I've been successful so far using this type of style I have a little trouble hammering out my transitions. Sometimes I don't do a lot of damage, but at the same time I haven't sacrificed all my units and begin droning very heavily.
Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case.
In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust? i played against this style on ladder the other day, the guy went for the early push at around 7:30 and i assumed it was all-in so im like haha ill take my expansion and crush him in midgame with a tank marine push. then i go for the push, get tramplestomped by speed roaches and speed banes and he a-moves into my natural and GG. i think the second push is actually the strongest part of this build order
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On December 01 2011 08:15 Snuggles wrote: In the games I've been successful so far using this type of style I have a little trouble hammering out my transitions. Sometimes I don't do a lot of damage, but at the same time I haven't sacrificed all my units and begin droning very heavily.
Regardless of the damage I do I always transition into a third base as I push and drone while teching towards mutas. Which always feel wonky unless I've done a ton of damage already in the initial aggressive push, but obviously the game becomes a steam roll in that case.
In most cases I barely make the timing (a lot of terrans scout my roaches as they pop out and get bunkers up), especially on maps with long distances so the damage I do usually isn't as much as I would like. Is transitioning into a macro muta style viable with this opening or am I going to have to follow up with the second bust?
The first push does not have to do damage for you to be in a good spot to win the game. It's highly likely to do damage, but it's certainly possible for your opponent to have such a good defense that you decide not to engage at all. In these cases, it's important to 1) Find out when they're expanding with ling scout 2) Find out when they're pushing out by having a ling "spotter" outside their natural 3) Drone HARD to catch back up - you'll delay their expansion, but if you do no damage, the only way to make up for the investment of units is to use the units you have defensively while you drone hard to 2 fully saturated bases.
Now there's a few options once you reach 2base saturation. The option I think is strongest is the second phase of the bust with roach/ling/baneling, because you already have a roach warren and likely some roaches left over. The push seems to make the most effective use of your tech structures, left-over units, and the fact you're on 2 bases. You can just go right for a 3rd base, drone up, and get an evolution chamber, baneling nest and lair, moving into "standard" ling/bane/muta. The problem is your terran opponent will likely counter attack some point(in fact, the first push almost instigates a counter-attack). In the face of this counter attack, would you rather have 1) ling/baneling with a spire building or have a big ling/bane/roach army with speed ready to crush his attack and then counter yourself? It's a stylistic choice, but I've found that with solid timings and execution the second roach/ling/baneling push wins the majority of the time and if it doesn't, you'll at least reset his tank/unit count, substantially reducing the size of any mid-game push which gives you time to drone up and expand.
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Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead.
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On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire.
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On December 02 2011 11:06 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late
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On December 05 2011 11:40 forevernerdy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 11:06 TangSC wrote:On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late
I would simply pull back my first push back and play defensively (hopefully kill a few repairing SCVs but even if not) then do the second phase of the bust at 11:30 when he has a natural and is more spread out. Roach/ling/baneling with creep can hold off any midgame push or drop harass. Then when he pushes you can just crush it and counterattack or if he doesn't push you can either bust his natural or take a 3rd.
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Tang bothers me. He posts a thread about baneling/roach busts EVERY WEEK. PEOPLE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE. -________- uhmmmmmmm the 7RR was made a long time ago.
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On November 10 2011 10:14 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 08:14 GeuRiMo wrote: I used to try out some of your stuff when I was a young noobling and some of it worked, but it gets boring very quickly. I wouldn`t recommend any new, or lower league Zerg to read this and adapt to this play. Your games always ends up being throwing stuff at your enemy in a desperate fashion.
It's not at all that way if you take the time to structure and perfect your build orders! The point of multiple aggressive timing attacks is the execution greatly increases your mechanical skills: Larva injects, unit production, rally points, unit control, multitasking, etc.
Then playing long drawn out macro games must increase it by even more.
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I even used 7RR + Speedlings all last season for ZvPs in platinum, and I had an 85% winrate. Its not that hard. I had everything all timed out so well it was crazy lol.
9 OL 14 Gas 14 Pool 16 OL @100% Pool: Queen + pair of lings + OL @100 Gas: Ling Speed @35/50 on Queen building: Roach Warren @175 Gas: Take drones off gas @100% Warren: 7 Roaches + OL Go straight to opponents base with 7 Roaches + 2 Lings, the next round of 12 lings will arrive before you get to opponent's base, even on XNC.
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there you go. ill be like tang now ITS THE: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH ALL IN
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On December 06 2011 06:02 iMMortaL.797 wrote: Tang bothers me. He posts a thread about baneling/roach busts EVERY WEEK. PEOPLE HAVE DONE THIS BEFORE. -________- uhmmmmmmm the 7RR was made a long time ago. uhm...7rr is a one base build. this one has a Hatch first o.O
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On December 06 2011 06:10 iMMortaL.797 wrote: there you go. ill be like tang now ITS THE: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH ALL IN Wait wait wait, don't you mean:
IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH "HYPER-AGGRESSION"
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Tang-
Screw the haters, this guide is awesome! For a while now I have wanted to try hyper aggressive styles of play with zerg because I thought them to be extremely powerful, now I know for a FACT that they are.
This guide will definitely help me out when I am able to start playing again very soon. So thank you for taking the time out of your day to contribute to TL!
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On December 06 2011 08:49 Senros wrote: Tang-
Screw the haters, this guide is awesome! For a while now I have wanted to try hyper aggressive styles of play with zerg because I thought them to be extremely powerful, now I know for a FACT that they are.
This guide will definitely help me out when I am able to start playing again very soon. So thank you for taking the time out of your day to contribute to TL!
Agree 100%. Thank you Tang for this. It has helped me personally. I love the thought process of this approach. It is a great blend of aggresion with opportunity to pull back and still play macro - but you are at least setup for aggresion if needed.
I've also used it against Protoss with much success and wonder why you specify it only for ZvT instead of ZvT/P?
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On December 06 2011 11:39 greymason wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 08:49 Senros wrote: Tang-
Screw the haters, this guide is awesome! For a while now I have wanted to try hyper aggressive styles of play with zerg because I thought them to be extremely powerful, now I know for a FACT that they are.
This guide will definitely help me out when I am able to start playing again very soon. So thank you for taking the time out of your day to contribute to TL! Agree 100%. Thank you Tang for this. It has helped me personally. I love the thought process of this approach. It is a great blend of aggresion with opportunity to pull back and still play macro - but you are at least setup for aggresion if needed. I've also used it against Protoss with much success and wonder why you specify it only for ZvT instead of ZvT/P? I've been having a lot of trouble doing straight pushes against protoss...you can't really hatch first against toss, so the roach/ling push would be slightly delayed. The first push gets there at 7:30 or so, and they're pretty close to warp completion. By the time the second push comes around, they'll have so many sentries that it's almost impossible to break them. I've been using a lot more of a macro style against toss, with roach/ling and eventually muta.
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On December 06 2011 05:51 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 11:40 forevernerdy wrote:On December 02 2011 11:06 TangSC wrote:On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late I would simply pull back my first push back and play defensively (hopefully kill a few repairing SCVs but even if not) then do the second phase of the bust at 11:30 when he has a natural and is more spread out. Roach/ling/baneling with creep can hold off any midgame push or drop harass. Then when he pushes you can just crush it and counterattack or if he doesn't push you can either bust his natural or take a 3rd.
i dont think its that easy, if you dont do ANY damage with that first push and they're planning a big 1/1/1 all-in, then you wont have any banelings by the time the push comes around. a big marine/banshee/hellion all-in with or without scvs at the 8-10minute mark (after the first push but before the 2nd one) would be devastating considering how late the mutas and additional queens are. dont get me wrong, this style is uber strong against players who dont open 1/1/1, but i think if they wall in with the big buildings you're in trouble. HOWEVER if you got queens/spines/spores at your expansion, you might hold it...but you have to know hes going to allin you to make that kind of static defenses worth it.
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On December 08 2011 23:46 forevernerdy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 05:51 TangSC wrote:On December 05 2011 11:40 forevernerdy wrote:On December 02 2011 11:06 TangSC wrote:On December 02 2011 06:50 greymason wrote: Tang - What do you recommend if you push with the first timing push - break through and do damage but don't kill him as he pushes you away with 1-2 banshees. I had a game where I felt like I had him hurt enough I should have won but he was able to counter-attack immediately w/ the banshees and then slowly pulled ahead. If he's going banshees, you'll almost always break in and do considerable damage. For anti air you have an evo chamber and 2 queens already, you should be able to get up enough queens and spores to deal with 2 banshees easily and be significantly ahead. At that point you can lair and go muta then take a 3rd OR you can go for the 2nd phase of the bust still, it's just that if he goes mass banshee you'll wish you just got a spire. what if he does like a 1/1/1 and walls in with the big buildings with a tank behind it, then there would be no way to break in, and then banshees or drops would do so much damage because your lair and spire are so late I would simply pull back my first push back and play defensively (hopefully kill a few repairing SCVs but even if not) then do the second phase of the bust at 11:30 when he has a natural and is more spread out. Roach/ling/baneling with creep can hold off any midgame push or drop harass. Then when he pushes you can just crush it and counterattack or if he doesn't push you can either bust his natural or take a 3rd. i dont think its that easy, if you dont do ANY damage with that first push and they're planning a big 1/1/1 all-in, then you wont have any banelings by the time the push comes around. a big marine/banshee/hellion all-in with or without scvs at the 8-10minute mark (after the first push but before the 2nd one) would be devastating considering how late the mutas and additional queens are. dont get me wrong, this style is uber strong against players who dont open 1/1/1, but i think if they wall in with the big buildings you're in trouble. HOWEVER if you got queens/spines/spores at your expansion, you might hold it...but you have to know hes going to allin you to make that kind of static defenses worth it.
Well if you pull back without losing much and build a 3rd queen, then you have a roach/ling/queen composition on creep (pretty strong defensively). You can just drone up and keep active ling scouting. If you see he isn't expanding (or if you see him push out) you just make 2 larva injects full of lings. Then, you have queens/roaches and a massive amount of lings which is pretty strong against any midgame terran composition. Once you hold that big push, he'll have to play defensively to expand which means you can either do a huge roach/ling/bane bust or use your remaining lings/roached to take a 3rd at a gold and move. And, as you mention, you could grab an evo and a spore and spines to help you but naturally I prefer units/queens to static defenses.
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Yesterday i played some ZvT's with your other tactic. But i wanna mention 1 of them. (I'm really really sorry for offtopic but other thread closed by TeamLiquid)
-Shattered Temple close by air positions. Zerg went 15 hatch 15 pool. -Zerg created 4 zerglings for scout and killed them all. -As you mentioned i attacked with 5 marines and 1 hellion. (At 6min mark i reached his nat.expand and forced him to built another spine crowler and 22 zerglings.) *This fake attack did great indirect dmg. But that happened because of my enemy didn't understand what the hell i'm doing and he responded extremely bad. -Because of this bad reaction he forced to attack my main and return.(7.30mark and we both have 27 workers.) (Btw my viking killed 2 overlords.) -At 8 min mark he didn't see my expand and he easily understand I'm going to push 1 base extremely agressive attack. -At 8.40 I reached his expand. I had 3 siegetank (with Siege mode) 13 marines 1 banshee. (In your build there is no siege mode! You sacrifice Siege Mode for 1 more banshee.) He just build extra zerglings and overwhelm me............ There is no return point because of no stim and sieged tanks. -He knew i cannot produce enough marines or st to protect my expand and build more zerglings and prevented me from taking my expo.
Afterwards my morale went down and even after a good engagement against him I had macro mistakes and lose Then I started thinkin. Why this build does nearly no dmg to zerg player? Problem is banshee. Banshee seems very very high dps. But not against zerglings man 2 volley kill 1 zergling but if your banshee choose a low hp zergling it sucks. Zerglings has only 35 hp man. And Because of waiting 1 banshee your attack delay almost 1 min.
http://drop.sc/71327
TLDR: Sorry man. Your Terran build sucks. PS: Sorry for offtopic. Really sorry.
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On December 10 2011 07:00 Aceace wrote:Yesterday i played some ZvT's with your other tactic. But i wanna mention 1 of them. (I'm really really sorry for offtopic but other thread closed by TeamLiquid) -Shattered Temple close by air positions. Zerg went 15 hatch 15 pool. -Zerg created 4 zerglings for scout and killed them all. -As you mentioned i attacked with 5 marines and 1 hellion. (At 6min mark i reached his nat.expand and forced him to built another spine crowler and 22 zerglings.) *This fake attack did great indirect dmg. But that happened because of my enemy didn't understand what the hell i'm doing and he responded extremely bad. -Because of this bad reaction he forced to attack my main and return.(7.30mark and we both have 27 workers.) (Btw my viking killed 2 overlords.) -At 8 min mark he didn't see my expand and he easily understand I'm going to push 1 base extremely agressive attack. -At 8.40 I reached his expand. I had 3 siegetank (with Siege mode) 13 marines 1 banshee. (In your build there is no siege mode! You sacrifice Siege Mode for 1 more banshee.) He just build extra zerglings and overwhelm me............ There is no return point because of no stim and sieged tanks. -He knew i cannot produce enough marines or st to protect my expand and build more zerglings and prevented me from taking my expo. Afterwards my morale went down and even after a good engagement against him I had macro mistakes and lose Then I started thinkin. Why this build does nearly no dmg to zerg player? Problem is banshee. Banshee seems very very high dps. But not against zerglings man 2 volley kill 1 zergling but if your banshee choose a low hp zergling it sucks. Zerglings has only 35 hp man. And Because of waiting 1 banshee your attack delay almost 1 min. http://drop.sc/71327TLDR: Sorry man. Your Terran build sucks. PS: Sorry for offtopic. Really sorry. It might be more helpful to post further questions of the terran build in my TvZ thread (This is ZvT). But I think your biggest mistake is that you do get siege mode with my build, AS you're pushing out. It's actually crucial that those 3 tanks have siege mode when you make it to the opponent's base, otherwise zerglings will be too cost-efficient. I've had success at the master level using that 1/1/1 style, and several people of various skill levels have responded that it has helped them, so although it's easy to try a build once and say it doesn't work when you lose, it's much more likely that your execution needs to be improved upon.
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On December 06 2011 07:24 KarneEspada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:10 iMMortaL.797 wrote: there you go. ill be like tang now ITS THE: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH ALL IN Wait wait wait, don't you mean: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH "HYPER-AGGRESSION" Oh yeah sorry thanks <3
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On December 06 2011 07:24 KarneEspada wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 06:10 iMMortaL.797 wrote: there you go. ill be like tang now ITS THE: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH ALL IN Wait wait wait, don't you mean: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH "HYPER-AGGRESSION" Har har
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btw theres a reason not a ton of zergs go aggression UNLESS IT IS SCOUTED THAT YOU CAN DO SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE. hand goes to chest herpaderpderp however, the only thing that wins no matter what is the: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH "HYPER-AGGRESSION"
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 13 2011 06:43 iMMortaL.797 wrote: btw theres a reason not a ton of zergs go aggression UNLESS IT IS SCOUTED THAT YOU CAN DO SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE. hand goes to chest herpaderpderp however, the only thing that wins no matter what is the: IMMORTAL STARCRAFT EPIC ZERG 7 ROACH RUSH ONE BASE SPEEDLING ROACH "HYPER-AGGRESSION" Aggressive zerg is not common because its full power hasn't been unleashed yet. I think hyper-aggressive zerg is the future, once more people figure it out.
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I'm really loving this build! It works like a charm in gold.
The first attack almost never kills them, the second cripples them a lot and when the ultras come its a gg. I really love it when i just 1a with roaches banes lings on bunkers and tanks and they can't do anything about it.
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Tang, I've read a lot of your posts and seen some of your (SC2!) lectures. Your play style is inspiring. An aggressive, non-defensive zerg style is fun to play with and, executed correctly, seems to be not only successful but also useful in terms of learning macro mechanics, timings and transitions. I wouldn't say that it is the be-all-and-end-all of zerg styles but i find it very positive in a quagmire of macro-hard-til-you-hit-hive techniques. It flips the game into your control: deciding when to push, when you want to engage and how the game will play out rather than just saying, "If he builds X, I will have to build Y and we'll see how it goes." In short, I like your style, I like what it does to solidly-entrenched macro-zerg's minds and I think you have a lot to offer to the scene. Having said this, I think the inclusion of 'building all this stuff really early on and losing nothing whatsoever I can still make this later stuff' is a poor way of showcasing the style. The reason is that this style pounds your opponent and loses stuff but then reacts to what they are doing with the next aggressive transition. Therefore you HAVE to to include different transitions depending on what the opponent is doing, rather than saying 6 ultras plus roach bling wins, or 'if this doesnt work out then you need coaching which I will provide for 50 bucks an hour'. Peace
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I feel like this build just dosn't do it's justice against Terran
The Meta game for terran is Marine Tank vs Ling bane Muta - You wanna know why ? Because Marine tank = Blows up your banes + roaches and ultras really don't do that much damage, and it's big and slow
Check out any pro gamer game and you'll see Never does Zerg go ultra - And if they do - they practically lose
I feel that Doing early attacks like this - Can be stopped really easily with bunkers. Bunkers could stop the first attack - giving you a disadvantage in economy - The 2nd attack will be even weaker with Seige tanks behind bunkers - And your 3rd attack, which is 10 minutes later is almost impossible if the terran retailites even a little bit
This build assumes that you can be agressive but assumes that you won't be attacked at all .
For example : if your 1st attack fails , you can't follow up the rest of the build order- because the terran might choose to retailiate
Without mutas - You can't keep the terran At bay , and this build is why it's kind of favoring terrans -
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a guide on attacking at random times throwing dice, sweet.
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I wish I could play that way, but timing pushes don't train the macro. My platinum macro sucks a lot :/
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Tang, this style along with your other styles (zvp, zvz) work amazingly. I only started using them a few days ago but there is a marked difference in my win ratio. I used to play the old macro style zerg and I would get crushed by terrans and toss who were in my opinion lesser players. This style finially gives me an avenue for attack that I thought was never there.
To the people who say this doesn't train you to macro better, you are wrong. Timing pushes are very reliant on macro, if you can't macro and do everything you need to, when the time comes to attack you wont be ready. It also teaches you to macro while you are attacking, which is probably the most important macro skill to have.
The best thing about this style is that you take control of the match, you make the opponent react to you, and you can finally show those scum (Terran) that larvaa arn't just there to look pretty and make drones.
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On December 10 2011 07:00 Aceace wrote: TLDR: Sorry man. Your Terran build sucks. PS: Sorry for offtopic. Really sorry. Hey Aceace, I think you misread the built because 3 tanks WITH siege mode is necessary - you're pushing without siege it seems.
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