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Canada318 Posts
Background: I Am a Grandmaster zerg player who was having some trouble in ZvT, After talking with SixJaxVibe about how to use roach ling in ZvT, i began to mess around with the strategy on ladder. The result is an incredibly strong timing attack that can
A. Outright win you the game
B. Reset the Terrans tank count/Clear the natural
C. Fail miserably, while still leaving you in a decent position to macro up
The Build:
14 gas
14 pool
first 2 larva after pool pops are for zerglings, (fro taking xelnagas / scouting his ramp)
It is super important that you recognize if he opened 2 rax or 1 rax 1 gas
Note: If he opened 2 rax, continue making lings until you have held off the aggression and forced him up his ramp. If it was 1rax 1 gas, then u are making drones
Expo at 21
Queen at 22 (roach warren at 22 queen asap, if it was 1 rax 1 gas, if it was 2 rax, then banenest asap after queen)
Now from here, its kind of branches off, the whole idea is to drone as hard as possible while surviving off as few units as possible.
if he 2 raxed your safe to drone, because with just a few lings at home, your ready to make banes
if he went reactor hellion your also safe because you have a roach warren ready to produce roaches at a moments notice.
It IS super important to make sure he expands, you cannot continue to go roach ling bane if he stays on 1 base and goes 2 port banshee
Once you hit 40 supply start your lair, evo chamber and (roach warren if u already made ur bane nest, bane nest if you already made your roach warren, and move up to 3 gas geysers)
when your lair pops, stop making drones, you should have around 40-45 with 9 on gas and enough gas to start +1 melee, roach speed and bane speed
pump roaches and banes until u have 15-20 roaches, 15-20 banes, and speedlings ready to be rallied in,
The main objective is to demolish his natural, the only way ive found this attack fails is if your opponent went for an insane amount of tanks (5-6 tanks with like 10 marines)
the key is to focus down tanks with your roaches, and aim your banelings at bunkers / infantry / workers
I have several replays of this attack doing varying amounts of damage but always leaving me in a favourable position. And then beautiful part?
1. If he moves out, you will almost surely kill him, (you would have done damage when he was seiged up, so if he unseiges hes in big trouble)
2. While your doing this attack you can take your third and start a spire
3. If he invested heavily into medivac drops his tank count will suffer, and he will likely die from this attack.
VS DDE
http://drop.sc/8195
Vs PainUser
http://drop.sc/2793
Vs ThisisJimmy
http://drop.sc/11113
VS Heavy harassment
http://drop.sc/11114
VS Mech
http://drop.sc/11115
Vs EsturLizzuma
http://drop.sc/8198
and a few other situations
http://drop.sc/11116
http://drop.sc/8191
you can also look me up on youtube, i have a few more posted and casted against players such as EGLZGamer
Any questions concerns or feedback let me know
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Excellent job breaking it down,
I've seen it done in the GSL a lot too. I noticed in the replay with dde, you had gas for almost 10 mutas at the end. I feel like its a bit all-in ish and kind of a blind attack which works because of the current zvt metagame.
On seeing roach/bane early by T, the proper response will turn out to make a lot more bunkers, and less turrets since there will be delayed mutas
This attack has to to damage, significant damage, otherwise you're pretty far behind especially on close positions
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Canada318 Posts
this is true, but on close positions i tend to put everything i have into the attack, since taking a third when ur close to ur opponent is much more difficult, + closer positions makes the attack stronger
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Sadly, it isn't at all all-in-ish. It's the proper counter to terrans doing a 1-1-1 like FE with tanks and bunkers. There's no down side to it, other than a 2 port cloakshee hit -- but he addresses that.
On seeing roach/bane early by T, the proper response will turn out to make a lot more bunkers, and less turrets since there will be delayed mutas
This attack has to to damage, significant damage, otherwise you're pretty far behind especially on close positions
I'm not so sure that is the proper response. You aren't behind, really, at all. Due to the threat of speed banes and speed roaches, with the inevitable creep spread from me having to turtle up you are STILL going to take your third, and I have to find a way to stop it. By switching over to spire, you have the harassment back, and the ball is STILL in your court. And if you don't do epic damage, I still (in your situation) have no turrets, therefore your muta switch will pound me back into my base so you can take a 4th, and sling bling muta and roach follow up.
I had a guy on EU do this to me two games in a row, and it's incredibly hard to stop. Just as echo says, I lost my tanks at my natural, and if it wasn't for the simcity of the natural (2 tanks high ground, 2 tanks low ground, 3 bunkers and depots/ebays blocking bunkers) I would've lost the ENTIRE natural.
Don't be so quick to assume it's allin ish. It's an aggressive 2 base push to hurt a terran who siege expands 'safely'.
I've always been an advocate for zergs doing roach first, sling bling roach pressure into take a third and mutas or infestors.
I both enjoy to see this, and hate you echo. To any zergs, PLEASE learn this. Use it especially on close positions.
its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do.
Exactly. We take the siege expand as being a safe expand and don't have to simcity properly, nor scout the coming aggression.
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its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do.
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I've been playing around this same style for a while since most GM Terrans on EU like very aggressive 2 Rax builds and Marine/Tank 8-11min timing pushes, which are pretty hard to stop.
Great post Jecho, i'll take a look at your reps.
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I've seen JEcho do this. It's a very strong timing. The reason I think it's so awesome is that the timing works in your favor almost everytime. Either they are taking a quick third, in the middle of a tech to starport/thor or getting turrets and you crash into them cleaning up their natural. Also, if they move out, their army evaporates. Very sexy play and super awesome close positions.
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this sounds very interesting, I've been having trouble with terrans especially on close positions recently and have been looking for a solid 2 base timing, this sounds like it might be just the thing.
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Awesome read up and it sounds a lot of a build I do except, well, a lot better in general  . Just few questions I have:
-In the game vs DDE, you didnt upgrade +1 melee attack. Did you forget or was their reasoning behind it?
-In the game vs Painuser, you opted for +1 carapace armor instead of +1 melee attack. Why was that? Also, you didn't commit to the roach/bane/ling bust; was it because you weren't sure if he was taking his natural?
Also, how do you think this fares if you open hatch first? You experimented it with it?
Sorry for all these questions, I just hope to incorporate this into my play and I just want to understand the build as best to my knowledge.
Thanks for the guide, btw.
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I'm not sure what the timing of upgrades is, but +1 carapace is better against more marines and +1 attack is better if the tank count is high.
Anyway, I like this build a lot. 2 bases zerg timings are very strong, and those builds seems to be discovered only now because zergs has always been "the reactionary race". Most zergs play without a plan, they just want to macro and counter, but this relatively new zerg philosophy of discovering that their 2 bases timings are very strong is changing that. Terrans and Protoss always use 2 bases timings (that are not allin, like this build), those are very important to keep their opponents honest. The "Losira" vP build and this vT build are in the same spirit, and in the current state of the game, they are very powerful.
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Canada318 Posts
marines most likely wont have stim, so +1 carapace isnt important, and theres hardly any lings, so they wont be there to get 1 shotted by tanks, +1 melee is much better.
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good post, and nice breakdown. saw you using this versus qxc and although he defended very well, he still took a lot of damage, and the potential was plain to see. hope not too many zergs start using this though, it's not a very well kept secret that many of our early game builds are actually banking on harrassment units to buy time so we can set up a greedy and very punishable naturals
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JEcho, as a terran who has a lot of trouble playing against this attack, specifically on maps with open naturals like Typhon and Xel'Naga, how does a terran combat this? Is there a way to fend off this attack and remain on even ground without doing some ridiculous cheese? I've been trying to think of some ideas but most haven't worked, such as 4x bunkers.
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Thanks, amazing job. Do you feel it works better on some maps?
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Canada318 Posts
it works best on maps with an open natural, you dont wann attempt this on shakuras where the natural is so enclosed, and theres 2 highgrounds for tanks to own you
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This build sounds really cool.
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How well would this do versus TLO's 6 rax?
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Just wondering, at what point to you put drones back onto gas?
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Canada318 Posts
i put the drones back to gas when i start the roach warren, or before the bane nest, whichever i needed
i feel it does fine vs tlos build, its strong against any ground based play
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This is the build july once used against clide on xelnega. It is most effective against terrans who open up with hellions on maps. Generally you want to hit just before siege tech is completed for maximum damage, thus what tech route terran choose will decide whether you do this timing attack with lair tech upgrades or not. It's not really that effective with huge rush distance since roaches take ages to crawl.
For terrans who open up with bio, ling bling aggression is good enough. You would also want to hit before siege tech is up.
In future, terrans will definitely start learning how to build supply depots wall to cover their bunkers at their natural. Instead of thinking how to minimise economic loss when shit happens (by allowing only structures that can be lifted or salvaged to be built at natural), why not give it your all to defend your natural? Just look at boxer's recent tvz, you will see that his natural is almost unbreakable.
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EPT
