EPTBut id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind.
[G] JEcho's ZvT RoachBaneLing Bust - Page 3
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind. | ||
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Thor1104
16 Posts
Do you ever sacrifice an OL against terran early on for scouting. If so, when and under what circumstances? | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
With the early speedlings, only hellions stand a chance to see anything of use and they would most likely only see the roaches and I would file that under hellion response. As we terrans cannot keep map presence like Zergs we won't know the attack is coming until it hits. So how can we divine such an attack is incoming? | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On May 24 2011 00:52 JEcho wrote: @ morghaine, the push doesnt need to do severe damage, even though i outplayed esturlizzuma in that game, my attack did almost no damage, i traded my whole army for 1-2 tanks and a couple marines. If it had come out anywhere near even i wouldnt have had to outplay him so badly. But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind. i watched the games against painuser and thisisjimmy and anytime you actually had a roach/bling/ling composition you got rolled by marine/tank. you never did a 'timing' attack in those games, you simply won because you outmacro'd the terran. | ||
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theMarkovian
Netherlands183 Posts
On May 24 2011 00:52 JEcho wrote: @ morghaine, the push doesnt need to do severe damage, even though i outplayed esturlizzuma in that game, my attack did almost no damage, i traded my whole army for 1-2 tanks and a couple marines. If it had come out anywhere near even i wouldnt have had to outplay him so badly. But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind. The strategy is pretty good, I've been doing it as a follow-up to Sheths 6Roach pressure somewhat regularly. If you hit at a good timing (about immediately when your speeds and +1 finishes) if resets the tank count making you safe from pushes for a couple of extra minutes, buying time for tech (spire) and economy. That said, some of the posters in this thread have been right about the replays: they show the ling/bane/roach strategy pretty well, but not the timing bust  And the fact that you did no damage with that push against esturlizzuma but won on the back of outplaying him is not a really good argument in favor of "you don't need to do severe damage". You were behind after that push, so in that circumstance the push wasn't executed very well/timing was off (and his tank position was very well done, on both highgrounds, with his Marines tucked away at the third). With a ling scout you might have been able to bust the third instead of trying the natural. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
on Metalopolis, Xel'Naga ect... you can spread out your units pretty well to avoid tank splash, but I have a feeling on the maps with small naturals you'll get shut down pretty hardcore by 1 tank on the high ground and 1 or 2 on the low ground. When you see you're in trouble though, it's best to snipe tanks with roaches and SCVs/Marines with banelings and delay the counter-attack in whatever way you can. I want to note something, for perhaps the lower masters players (however we have seen this strategy used with good success in the GSL recently...) If you hit their economy significantly, they'll try to push you ASAP. The counter to eager beaver terrans is indeed burrowed banelings. I can't tell you how many times, after some agression in the form of drops or nydus or muta harass, did a terran go OMG I NEED TO PUSH NOW!! Place 6 banelings, 2 by 2 at large distance from eachother. Chances are, he won't scan more than once if he scans at all. If he scans the first, he'll be cautious and give you more time, which is what you want. I urge you all to give it a try, 6 banelings aren't a humongous cost! | ||
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 24 2011 01:35 Thrombozyt wrote: As a terran I wonder how to scout that incoming. Unless you happen to scan their army. Maybe the existence of both roach warren and baneling nest would tip me off, but place both apart and honestly if I scan and I see either with a lair morphing, I would not invest more scans. With the early speedlings, only hellions stand a chance to see anything of use and they would most likely only see the roaches and I would file that under hellion response. As we terrans cannot keep map presence like Zergs we won't know the attack is coming until it hits. So how can we divine such an attack is incoming? By harassing, and taking note of drone counts, 1 evo or 2, how many queens, a third taken? Roaches? How many slings around the map? How many gas. If it's 2 base, and they don't even appear to be TRYING to take a third, incoming 2 base bust so there's your scouting. Again, scouting is more what you DON'T see, than what you DO see some times. | ||
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
As I have pointed out, scans look for specific things and unless zerg is lazy or I'm really lucky I cannot see this push in a scan as a warren or a baneling nest are not that unusual and you are not that undersaturated in drones. Air units are most likely not present as they eat tremendously into my tank count and delay upgrades I need for the push. That leaves hellions that eat into tank count and can be intercepted by speedlings, as I won't send them out in force to scout. So for most games there is a black spot, where I don't get info besides scans. | ||
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antz0r
Australia168 Posts
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
On May 24 2011 17:02 Thrombozyt wrote: I'm not sure I agree. Or maybe I missunderstand the build. I thought it would hit slightly after normal macro zergs take their third but before or just as a 2 base rine/tank push would move out. Terran can only scout with air units, scans or hellions, as anything else can be easily denied thanks to speedlings and the great map awareness zergs enjoy due to lings/ovies/creep. As I have pointed out, scans look for specific things and unless zerg is lazy or I'm really lucky I cannot see this push in a scan as a warren or a baneling nest are not that unusual and you are not that undersaturated in drones. Air units are most likely not present as they eat tremendously into my tank count and delay upgrades I need for the push. That leaves hellions that eat into tank count and can be intercepted by speedlings, as I won't send them out in force to scout. So for most games there is a black spot, where I don't get info besides scans. medivacs are out more than in time to scout this, the very same medivacs that come in to do drop harass. if u dont scout it (because you didnt make hellions or medivacs) well your fine... because apparently you have a crapton of tanks | ||
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Skank
United States329 Posts
On May 23 2011 06:33 babysimba wrote: This is the build july once used against clide on xelnega. It is most effective against terrans who open up with hellions on maps. Generally you want to hit just before siege tech is completed for maximum damage, thus what tech route terran choose will decide whether you do this timing attack with lair tech upgrades or not. It's not really that effective with huge rush distance since roaches take ages to crawl. For terrans who open up with bio, ling bling aggression is good enough. You would also want to hit before siege tech is up. In future, terrans will definitely start learning how to build supply depots wall to cover their bunkers at their natural. Instead of thinking how to minimise economic loss when shit happens (by allowing only structures that can be lifted or salvaged to be built at natural), why not give it your all to defend your natural? Just look at boxer's recent tvz, you will see that his natural is almost unbreakable. Could someone give me a link to this boxer tvz game? I'd struggled with this build heavily on Xel'Naga after opening with reactor helions, to the point where I just don't go helions on Xel'Naga anymore, I prefer 2 rax expand into fast medivac drops before the mutas appear. I'm looking for suggestions on building placement, so I can have some flexibility on this heavily played map | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 23 2011 17:50 Umpteen wrote: Quick question from someone not playing at masters level: Round about where I'm playing, where Zerglings have corks on their claws so they don't hurt themselves, not seeing an expansion means very little. In the past I've 'deduced' banshees after drone-scouting double gas, no expansion, then two marines and a bunker at the ramp, only to have him roll out with a bunch of marines and marauders from four barracks while I'm still merrily droning and making queens. A lot of the Terrans I'm playing treat expanding as something you do when your pick-some-random-time-and-move-out-with-random-amount-of-stuff fails. Where would you say this build fits into that kind of nonsense? Sad to say, but that's because it's a lower level. People at the extreme lows do some off the wall 4 gas mass marine no upgrade builds, where reading them is about impossible. The only reason things as such can be deduced or predicted is due to people play a lot more 'standard' and safe in ladder (to me it seems at least) I'd say this build is specific, to hit a terran who's basically 2 raxing, or 1-1-1'ing with tanks and a few bunkers, to force a lift off the OC at the nat, and as OP said, reset tank count. I could push 2 minutes later if he didn't hit and have 7 tanks. He hits, and my counter has 2-3, max. A quick sling or muta or heavy roach, all unit depending, remax (in a sense) can wreck the push over. Especially against roaches, and especially on creep. If you don't have those tanks spread, you're dead. Rhyme meant. | ||
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
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BackSlashZero
Canada9 Posts
Just one comment and please tell me if I am off base here. I don't like the speedling opening vs terran I find it puts me behind in larvae. If I can pull off hatch-pool-gas I usually try that but pool-hatch-gas also works really well and is much safer against early bunkers. I realize the speedlings are for the 2 rax pressure but I find if you drop the RW at about the same time (~22 supply) roaches are out just in time to fend off the pressure, and they are necessary if your opponent happens to do something like 6/7 rax where banes can be inefficient and take too long to morph. Mad props to a Canadian Zerg brother! I will definitely try this your way and see the differences, many thanks. | ||
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Exley
United States239 Posts
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Ebos
United States44 Posts
Do you throw down a spire and go into muta/ling/banling/ with little roaches or do you continue on with ling/bane/roach and maybe mix in some infestors? And I know so much of this depends on what the terran is doing so breaking it out by terran builds would be nice. Also whats your late game plan? Thanks.. | ||
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FXOjEcho
Canada318 Posts
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DrDoom
United States107 Posts
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