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Background: I Am a Grandmaster zerg player who was having some trouble in ZvT, After talking with SixJaxVibe about how to use roach ling in ZvT, i began to mess around with the strategy on ladder. The result is an incredibly strong timing attack that can
A. Outright win you the game
B. Reset the Terrans tank count/Clear the natural
C. Fail miserably, while still leaving you in a decent position to macro up
The Build:
14 gas
14 pool
first 2 larva after pool pops are for zerglings, (fro taking xelnagas / scouting his ramp)
It is super important that you recognize if he opened 2 rax or 1 rax 1 gas
Note: If he opened 2 rax, continue making lings until you have held off the aggression and forced him up his ramp. If it was 1rax 1 gas, then u are making drones
Expo at 21
Queen at 22 (roach warren at 22 queen asap, if it was 1 rax 1 gas, if it was 2 rax, then banenest asap after queen)
Now from here, its kind of branches off, the whole idea is to drone as hard as possible while surviving off as few units as possible.
if he 2 raxed your safe to drone, because with just a few lings at home, your ready to make banes
if he went reactor hellion your also safe because you have a roach warren ready to produce roaches at a moments notice.
It IS super important to make sure he expands, you cannot continue to go roach ling bane if he stays on 1 base and goes 2 port banshee
Once you hit 40 supply start your lair, evo chamber and (roach warren if u already made ur bane nest, bane nest if you already made your roach warren, and move up to 3 gas geysers)
when your lair pops, stop making drones, you should have around 40-45 with 9 on gas and enough gas to start +1 melee, roach speed and bane speed
pump roaches and banes until u have 15-20 roaches, 15-20 banes, and speedlings ready to be rallied in,
The main objective is to demolish his natural, the only way ive found this attack fails is if your opponent went for an insane amount of tanks (5-6 tanks with like 10 marines)
the key is to focus down tanks with your roaches, and aim your banelings at bunkers / infantry / workers
I have several replays of this attack doing varying amounts of damage but always leaving me in a favourable position. And then beautiful part?
1. If he moves out, you will almost surely kill him, (you would have done damage when he was seiged up, so if he unseiges hes in big trouble)
2. While your doing this attack you can take your third and start a spire
3. If he invested heavily into medivac drops his tank count will suffer, and he will likely die from this attack.
VS DDE
http://drop.sc/8195
Vs PainUser
http://drop.sc/2793
Vs ThisisJimmy
http://drop.sc/11113
VS Heavy harassment
http://drop.sc/11114
VS Mech
http://drop.sc/11115
Vs EsturLizzuma
http://drop.sc/8198
and a few other situations
http://drop.sc/11116
http://drop.sc/8191
you can also look me up on youtube, i have a few more posted and casted against players such as EGLZGamer
Any questions concerns or feedback let me know
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Excellent job breaking it down,
I've seen it done in the GSL a lot too. I noticed in the replay with dde, you had gas for almost 10 mutas at the end. I feel like its a bit all-in ish and kind of a blind attack which works because of the current zvt metagame.
On seeing roach/bane early by T, the proper response will turn out to make a lot more bunkers, and less turrets since there will be delayed mutas
This attack has to to damage, significant damage, otherwise you're pretty far behind especially on close positions
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this is true, but on close positions i tend to put everything i have into the attack, since taking a third when ur close to ur opponent is much more difficult, + closer positions makes the attack stronger
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Sadly, it isn't at all all-in-ish. It's the proper counter to terrans doing a 1-1-1 like FE with tanks and bunkers. There's no down side to it, other than a 2 port cloakshee hit -- but he addresses that.
On seeing roach/bane early by T, the proper response will turn out to make a lot more bunkers, and less turrets since there will be delayed mutas
This attack has to to damage, significant damage, otherwise you're pretty far behind especially on close positions
I'm not so sure that is the proper response. You aren't behind, really, at all. Due to the threat of speed banes and speed roaches, with the inevitable creep spread from me having to turtle up you are STILL going to take your third, and I have to find a way to stop it. By switching over to spire, you have the harassment back, and the ball is STILL in your court. And if you don't do epic damage, I still (in your situation) have no turrets, therefore your muta switch will pound me back into my base so you can take a 4th, and sling bling muta and roach follow up.
I had a guy on EU do this to me two games in a row, and it's incredibly hard to stop. Just as echo says, I lost my tanks at my natural, and if it wasn't for the simcity of the natural (2 tanks high ground, 2 tanks low ground, 3 bunkers and depots/ebays blocking bunkers) I would've lost the ENTIRE natural.
Don't be so quick to assume it's allin ish. It's an aggressive 2 base push to hurt a terran who siege expands 'safely'.
I've always been an advocate for zergs doing roach first, sling bling roach pressure into take a third and mutas or infestors.
I both enjoy to see this, and hate you echo. To any zergs, PLEASE learn this. Use it especially on close positions.
its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do.
Exactly. We take the siege expand as being a safe expand and don't have to simcity properly, nor scout the coming aggression.
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its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do.
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I've been playing around this same style for a while since most GM Terrans on EU like very aggressive 2 Rax builds and Marine/Tank 8-11min timing pushes, which are pretty hard to stop.
Great post Jecho, i'll take a look at your reps.
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I've seen JEcho do this. It's a very strong timing. The reason I think it's so awesome is that the timing works in your favor almost everytime. Either they are taking a quick third, in the middle of a tech to starport/thor or getting turrets and you crash into them cleaning up their natural. Also, if they move out, their army evaporates. Very sexy play and super awesome close positions.
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this sounds very interesting, I've been having trouble with terrans especially on close positions recently and have been looking for a solid 2 base timing, this sounds like it might be just the thing.
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Awesome read up and it sounds a lot of a build I do except, well, a lot better in general  . Just few questions I have:
-In the game vs DDE, you didnt upgrade +1 melee attack. Did you forget or was their reasoning behind it?
-In the game vs Painuser, you opted for +1 carapace armor instead of +1 melee attack. Why was that? Also, you didn't commit to the roach/bane/ling bust; was it because you weren't sure if he was taking his natural?
Also, how do you think this fares if you open hatch first? You experimented it with it?
Sorry for all these questions, I just hope to incorporate this into my play and I just want to understand the build as best to my knowledge.
Thanks for the guide, btw.
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I'm not sure what the timing of upgrades is, but +1 carapace is better against more marines and +1 attack is better if the tank count is high.
Anyway, I like this build a lot. 2 bases zerg timings are very strong, and those builds seems to be discovered only now because zergs has always been "the reactionary race". Most zergs play without a plan, they just want to macro and counter, but this relatively new zerg philosophy of discovering that their 2 bases timings are very strong is changing that. Terrans and Protoss always use 2 bases timings (that are not allin, like this build), those are very important to keep their opponents honest. The "Losira" vP build and this vT build are in the same spirit, and in the current state of the game, they are very powerful.
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marines most likely wont have stim, so +1 carapace isnt important, and theres hardly any lings, so they wont be there to get 1 shotted by tanks, +1 melee is much better.
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good post, and nice breakdown. saw you using this versus qxc and although he defended very well, he still took a lot of damage, and the potential was plain to see. hope not too many zergs start using this though, it's not a very well kept secret that many of our early game builds are actually banking on harrassment units to buy time so we can set up a greedy and very punishable naturals
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JEcho, as a terran who has a lot of trouble playing against this attack, specifically on maps with open naturals like Typhon and Xel'Naga, how does a terran combat this? Is there a way to fend off this attack and remain on even ground without doing some ridiculous cheese? I've been trying to think of some ideas but most haven't worked, such as 4x bunkers.
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Thanks, amazing job. Do you feel it works better on some maps?
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it works best on maps with an open natural, you dont wann attempt this on shakuras where the natural is so enclosed, and theres 2 highgrounds for tanks to own you
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This build sounds really cool.
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How well would this do versus TLO's 6 rax?
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Just wondering, at what point to you put drones back onto gas?
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i put the drones back to gas when i start the roach warren, or before the bane nest, whichever i needed
i feel it does fine vs tlos build, its strong against any ground based play
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This is the build july once used against clide on xelnega. It is most effective against terrans who open up with hellions on maps. Generally you want to hit just before siege tech is completed for maximum damage, thus what tech route terran choose will decide whether you do this timing attack with lair tech upgrades or not. It's not really that effective with huge rush distance since roaches take ages to crawl.
For terrans who open up with bio, ling bling aggression is good enough. You would also want to hit before siege tech is up.
In future, terrans will definitely start learning how to build supply depots wall to cover their bunkers at their natural. Instead of thinking how to minimise economic loss when shit happens (by allowing only structures that can be lifted or salvaged to be built at natural), why not give it your all to defend your natural? Just look at boxer's recent tvz, you will see that his natural is almost unbreakable.
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Its definitely a very strong builds. Just have to beware of people who go banshees
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With some slight variation this build can work against Protoss and Zerg as well. It requires fast teching to speedlings and instead of building an expo at 21 build a roach warren and a queen. Get about 20 speedlings and 3 roaches and if your timing is right you can be in the other players base at about the 5:30 mark and it's gg. In fact, if another zerg player doesn't prepare for this by building spine crawlers, something he would have to scout to see coming, it's almost a guaranteed win. Protoss can counter this by building an early forge and cannons but again if you have map control and can prevent them scouting it it's pretty solid.
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Ive been doing this build against Terran for a while now and with great success. I'd like to point out that I always upgrade carapace over attack since it will allow your roaches survive an extra tank shot, and let zerglings survive 2 tank shots. This is extremely important so your units can actually get up close and do damage.
By the way, I'm not really sure what's the right way to engage, like which units should be sent in first. I usually just send the roaches with the banelings first, then send the lings once the wall is down. I'm wondering if there is a better way to engage seiged tanks with bunkers.
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On May 23 2011 10:49 [Nosferatu] wrote:
With some slight variation this build can work against Protoss and Zerg as well. It requires fast teching to speedlings and instead of building an expo at 21 build a roach warren and a queen. Get about 20 speedlings and 3 roaches and if your timing is right you can be in the other players base at about the 5:30 mark and it's gg. In fact, if another zerg player doesn't prepare for this by building spine crawlers, something he would have to scout to see coming, it's almost a guaranteed win. Protoss can counter this by building an early forge and cannons but again if you have map control and can prevent them scouting it it's pretty solid.
Isn't that just wzp's build?
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lol this build is not meant to work against protoss or zerg, ZvZ is nothing like ZvT based on the fact that units can arrive in your base in seconds, and for ZvP forcefields would demolish this attack based on how late it comes. 3roach 20 speedlings will only kill some1 if they dont know what they are doing, or went for something cheesy and didnt have the standard amount of sentrys
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I've been looking for a way to play close positions, and I think I found it. This looks awesome =)
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Looks awesome - great idea. Just one question - do you think the build would be more successful opening hatch first? Since you're eventually expo-ing, if you can hold the early 2rax aggression or the hellion play (since roaches will probably start a bit later), wouldn't it be even more effective?
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@fairforever, yes i do believe so, its just this way is more consistent, because if you go hatch first your more likely to lose drones / get hatch blocked and delayed etc. But if you can make it work definitely go for it
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sexy as fuck. i love doing timing pushes as zerg, instead of the typical, try not to die to early pushes, reactive style. 
also do you think you could write out the build order more concisely? i have lots of stuff to do but if i tried reading this while in game i'd lose.
/edit i did it
14gas
14pool
4 zerglings
if 2rax, make lings til safe
if 1rax1gas, drone
expo at 21
queen 22, roach warren if 1rax/1gas. if 2rax, banenest after queen
lair at 40 supply
evo chamber (roach warren if banenest, banenest is roach warren)
have 3 gas
start bane speed, roach speed +1 melee
roach and banes til 20 roach, 20 banes, and speedlings
correct me if anything is wrong
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so um what's the best counter to this?
would reapers(x5) into marauder/hellion work? how do i micro if i went marine/tank?
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apalemorning, that looks correct, izieboy, good positioning and mass tank
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JEcho, have you encountered a marauder/hellion push yet? Just theorycrafting but it could be another good terran counter. It will hit right when stimpack finishes, between 7:00 & 8:00 (or mb 9:00 with more marauders/hellions).
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This works suprisingly well, I use a build very similar to this, the main differences being I don't get roach speed and open hatch first. Most terrans expect a slow lair and a macro game after a 15 hatch and this build punishes them for not scouting enough.
I have a question though, how do you deal with banshees, do you prefer making extra queens or since you have the evo chamber already invest in spore crawlers?
Also, I like pulling drones from at least 1 gas to have more speedling reinforcements and be able to drone more after the attack, do you think this is a good idea or would you rather have the extra gas to tech faster afterwards?
Edit : spelling
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On May 23 2011 15:20 NeonFox wrote:
This works suprisingly well, I use a build very similar to this, the main differences being I don't get roach speed and open hatch first. Most terrans expect a slow lair and a macro game after a 15 hatch and this build punishes them for not scouting enough.
I have a question though, how do you deal with banshees, do you prefer making extra queens or since you have the evo chamber already invest in spore crawlers?
Also, I like pulling drones from at least 1 gas to have more speedling reinforcements and be able to drone more after the attack, do you think this is a good idea or would you rather have the extra gas to tech faster afterwards?
Edit : spelling
I believe the point of this build is to punish a terran expansion. The only real threat would be two-port banshee, which means terran is on one base so this build shouldn't be used. However, a 1-1-1 expansion with banshees should probably be dealt with best with a spore or two in each base.
He keeps getting the gas because he's expanding and teching to spire for mutas or whatnot. So you need that gas income to be constant.
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daewang, you are on the ball my man
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OP stated that it is extremely important to make sure if he expands if not he's going 2port banshee. Could someone tell me around what time a terran should have expanded?
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On May 23 2011 17:23 Poelie wrote:
OP stated that it is extremely important to make sure if he expands if not he's going 2port banshee. Could someone tell me around what time a terran should have expanded?
Quick question from someone not playing at masters level: Round about where I'm playing, where Zerglings have corks on their claws so they don't hurt themselves, not seeing an expansion means very little. In the past I've 'deduced' banshees after drone-scouting double gas, no expansion, then two marines and a bunker at the ramp, only to have him roll out with a bunch of marines and marauders from four barracks while I'm still merrily droning and making queens. A lot of the Terrans I'm playing treat expanding as something you do when your pick-some-random-time-and-move-out-with-random-amount-of-stuff fails. Where would you say this build fits into that kind of nonsense?
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On May 23 2011 13:05 JEcho wrote:
lol this build is not meant to work against protoss or zerg, ZvZ is nothing like ZvT based on the fact that units can arrive in your base in seconds, and for ZvP forcefields would demolish this attack based on how late it comes. 3roach 20 speedlings will only kill some1 if they dont know what they are doing, or went for something cheesy and didnt have the standard amount of sentrys
He is right. It would really only work if the other player doesn't know what they are doing or goes for cheese. Tested this out a bit tonight. The only similarity to JEcho's build is that you still do 14pool and yeah I think wzp posted the build I was talking about a while back.
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This push absolutely has to do lots of damage, in your game against EatsyourLlama (or whatever he's called  ) you just won despite of failing your push because you severely outplayed him with that runby after that.
In any other case, you have less income, equal bases, less drones, so you're basically already dead. very very well played against EatsyourLlama though.
In the game against DDE, it would have really helped him if he spent some of his 300 APM at the time to make his siege tanks stop attacking the rocks.
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Awesome thanks for posting.
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@ morghaine, the push doesnt need to do severe damage, even though i outplayed esturlizzuma in that game, my attack did almost no damage, i traded my whole army for 1-2 tanks and a couple marines. If it had come out anywhere near even i wouldnt have had to outplay him so badly.
But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind.
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JEcho. This seems like a very powerful build, especially on maps with close positions and open naturals.
Do you ever sacrifice an OL against terran early on for scouting. If so, when and under what circumstances?
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As a terran I wonder how to scout that incoming. Unless you happen to scan their army. Maybe the existence of both roach warren and baneling nest would tip me off, but place both apart and honestly if I scan and I see either with a lair morphing, I would not invest more scans.
With the early speedlings, only hellions stand a chance to see anything of use and they would most likely only see the roaches and I would file that under hellion response. As we terrans cannot keep map presence like Zergs we won't know the attack is coming until it hits.
So how can we divine such an attack is incoming?
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On May 24 2011 00:52 JEcho wrote:
@ morghaine, the push doesnt need to do severe damage, even though i outplayed esturlizzuma in that game, my attack did almost no damage, i traded my whole army for 1-2 tanks and a couple marines. If it had come out anywhere near even i wouldnt have had to outplay him so badly.
But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind.
i watched the games against painuser and thisisjimmy and anytime you actually had a roach/bling/ling composition you got rolled by marine/tank. you never did a 'timing' attack in those games, you simply won because you outmacro'd the terran.
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On May 24 2011 00:52 JEcho wrote:
@ morghaine, the push doesnt need to do severe damage, even though i outplayed esturlizzuma in that game, my attack did almost no damage, i traded my whole army for 1-2 tanks and a couple marines. If it had come out anywhere near even i wouldnt have had to outplay him so badly.
But id love to see you show me a strat that you can sacrifice your whole army for basically nothing and not fall behind.
The strategy is pretty good, I've been doing it as a follow-up to Sheths 6Roach pressure somewhat regularly. If you hit at a good timing (about immediately when your speeds and +1 finishes) if resets the tank count making you safe from pushes for a couple of extra minutes, buying time for tech (spire) and economy.
That said, some of the posters in this thread have been right about the replays: they show the ling/bane/roach strategy pretty well, but not the timing bust  And the fact that you did no damage with that push against esturlizzuma but won on the back of outplaying him is not a really good argument in favor of "you don't need to do severe damage". You were behind after that push, so in that circumstance the push wasn't executed very well/timing was off (and his tank position was very well done, on both highgrounds, with his Marines tucked away at the third). With a ling scout you might have been able to bust the third instead of trying the natural.
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This strategy is extremely strong on wide open naturals.
on Metalopolis, Xel'Naga ect... you can spread out your units pretty well to avoid tank splash, but I have a feeling on the maps with small naturals you'll get shut down pretty hardcore by 1 tank on the high ground and 1 or 2 on the low ground. When you see you're in trouble though, it's best to snipe tanks with roaches and SCVs/Marines with banelings and delay the counter-attack in whatever way you can.
I want to note something, for perhaps the lower masters players (however we have seen this strategy used with good success in the GSL recently...) If you hit their economy significantly, they'll try to push you ASAP. The counter to eager beaver terrans is indeed burrowed banelings. I can't tell you how many times, after some agression in the form of drops or nydus or muta harass, did a terran go OMG I NEED TO PUSH NOW!! Place 6 banelings, 2 by 2 at large distance from eachother. Chances are, he won't scan more than once if he scans at all. If he scans the first, he'll be cautious and give you more time, which is what you want. I urge you all to give it a try, 6 banelings aren't a humongous cost!
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ya steel your right, you definitely dont wanna attack into a natural shaped like shakuras, but you can always make the units and use them for defense, because you basically blindly made the perfect amount to defend with.
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On May 24 2011 01:35 Thrombozyt wrote:
As a terran I wonder how to scout that incoming. Unless you happen to scan their army. Maybe the existence of both roach warren and baneling nest would tip me off, but place both apart and honestly if I scan and I see either with a lair morphing, I would not invest more scans.
With the early speedlings, only hellions stand a chance to see anything of use and they would most likely only see the roaches and I would file that under hellion response. As we terrans cannot keep map presence like Zergs we won't know the attack is coming until it hits.
So how can we divine such an attack is incoming?
By harassing, and taking note of drone counts, 1 evo or 2, how many queens, a third taken? Roaches? How many slings around the map? How many gas.
If it's 2 base, and they don't even appear to be TRYING to take a third, incoming 2 base bust so there's your scouting.
Again, scouting is more what you DON'T see, than what you DO see some times.
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I am jeffert is correct. Two base muta isn't viable you really need a third base. And two base infestor is not hard to scout at all
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I'm not sure I agree. Or maybe I missunderstand the build. I thought it would hit slightly after normal macro zergs take their third but before or just as a 2 base rine/tank push would move out. Terran can only scout with air units, scans or hellions, as anything else can be easily denied thanks to speedlings and the great map awareness zergs enjoy due to lings/ovies/creep.
As I have pointed out, scans look for specific things and unless zerg is lazy or I'm really lucky I cannot see this push in a scan as a warren or a baneling nest are not that unusual and you are not that undersaturated in drones. Air units are most likely not present as they eat tremendously into my tank count and delay upgrades I need for the push. That leaves hellions that eat into tank count and can be intercepted by speedlings, as I won't send them out in force to scout.
So for most games there is a black spot, where I don't get info besides scans.
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Is it just me, or does zerg have possibly the most interesting playing styles out of all the races lol. This is amazing stuff Jecho.
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On May 24 2011 17:02 Thrombozyt wrote:
I'm not sure I agree. Or maybe I missunderstand the build. I thought it would hit slightly after normal macro zergs take their third but before or just as a 2 base rine/tank push would move out. Terran can only scout with air units, scans or hellions, as anything else can be easily denied thanks to speedlings and the great map awareness zergs enjoy due to lings/ovies/creep.
As I have pointed out, scans look for specific things and unless zerg is lazy or I'm really lucky I cannot see this push in a scan as a warren or a baneling nest are not that unusual and you are not that undersaturated in drones. Air units are most likely not present as they eat tremendously into my tank count and delay upgrades I need for the push. That leaves hellions that eat into tank count and can be intercepted by speedlings, as I won't send them out in force to scout.
So for most games there is a black spot, where I don't get info besides scans.
medivacs are out more than in time to scout this, the very same medivacs that come in to do drop harass.
if u dont scout it (because you didnt make hellions or medivacs) well your fine... because apparently you have a crapton of tanks
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On May 23 2011 06:33 babysimba wrote:
This is the build july once used against clide on xelnega. It is most effective against terrans who open up with hellions on maps. Generally you want to hit just before siege tech is completed for maximum damage, thus what tech route terran choose will decide whether you do this timing attack with lair tech upgrades or not. It's not really that effective with huge rush distance since roaches take ages to crawl.
For terrans who open up with bio, ling bling aggression is good enough. You would also want to hit before siege tech is up.
In future, terrans will definitely start learning how to build supply depots wall to cover their bunkers at their natural. Instead of thinking how to minimise economic loss when shit happens (by allowing only structures that can be lifted or salvaged to be built at natural), why not give it your all to defend your natural? Just look at boxer's recent tvz, you will see that his natural is almost unbreakable.
Could someone give me a link to this boxer tvz game? I'd struggled with this build heavily on Xel'Naga after opening with reactor helions, to the point where I just don't go helions on Xel'Naga anymore, I prefer 2 rax expand into fast medivac drops before the mutas appear. I'm looking for suggestions on building placement, so I can have some flexibility on this heavily played map
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On May 23 2011 17:50 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 17:23 Poelie wrote:
OP stated that it is extremely important to make sure if he expands if not he's going 2port banshee. Could someone tell me around what time a terran should have expanded? Quick question from someone not playing at masters level: Round about where I'm playing, where Zerglings have corks on their claws so they don't hurt themselves, not seeing an expansion means very little. In the past I've 'deduced' banshees after drone-scouting double gas, no expansion, then two marines and a bunker at the ramp, only to have him roll out with a bunch of marines and marauders from four barracks while I'm still merrily droning and making queens. A lot of the Terrans I'm playing treat expanding as something you do when your pick-some-random-time-and-move-out-with-random-amount-of-stuff fails. Where would you say this build fits into that kind of nonsense?
Sad to say, but that's because it's a lower level. People at the extreme lows do some off the wall 4 gas mass marine no upgrade builds, where reading them is about impossible. The only reason things as such can be deduced or predicted is due to people play a lot more 'standard' and safe in ladder (to me it seems at least)
I'd say this build is specific, to hit a terran who's basically 2 raxing, or 1-1-1'ing with tanks and a few bunkers, to force a lift off the OC at the nat, and as OP said, reset tank count. I could push 2 minutes later if he didn't hit and have 7 tanks. He hits, and my counter has 2-3, max. A quick sling or muta or heavy roach, all unit depending, remax (in a sense) can wreck the push over.
Especially against roaches, and especially on creep. If you don't have those tanks spread, you're dead. Rhyme meant.
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this build destroys people who play that style, as long as you take note.. hey he hasnt expanded, have a couple zerglings sitting around, and make sure not to get supply blocked. Then if he happens to move out u can instantly make banes + spam units + pull drones. People at the high levels to 1 base cheese as well. you just have to recognize he hasnt expanded and go lighter on the drones.
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I have been incorporating a lot more roaches in my ZvT lately as personally I feel it is one of the safest ways to open. Roaches are beasts in the early game and can hold off any 2 rax pressure or marine scv all in not to mention hellions of course. Roaches also are more larvae efficient which is a plus if you are not expanding right away.
Just one comment and please tell me if I am off base here. I don't like the speedling opening vs terran I find it puts me behind in larvae. If I can pull off hatch-pool-gas I usually try that but pool-hatch-gas also works really well and is much safer against early bunkers. I realize the speedlings are for the 2 rax pressure but I find if you drop the RW at about the same time (~22 supply) roaches are out just in time to fend off the pressure, and they are necessary if your opponent happens to do something like 6/7 rax where banes can be inefficient and take too long to morph.
Mad props to a Canadian Zerg brother! I will definitely try this your way and see the differences, many thanks.
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Seems like this build will crush anything other than a siege tank follow-up to an expansion, and since plenty of people are going blue flame or medevacs this build is pretty dangerous.
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Nice build JEcho... What sort of followup do you usually use for the mid game?
Do you throw down a spire and go into muta/ling/banling/ with little roaches or do you continue on with ling/bane/roach and maybe mix in some infestors?
And I know so much of this depends on what the terran is doing so breaking it out by terran builds would be nice.
Also whats your late game plan?
Thanks..
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coming out of this build i like to take my third and go spire, then just play mutaling baneling, expand and grow my muta ball, if that doesnt win then tier3
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I've been working on using this build and it seems strong so far. My main problem is when people stay on one base. How do you react to this when they are denying you scouting? If seems like you'll want to have different compositions if they are going for a marine scv all-in, versus a banshee all in.
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On May 28 2011 09:29 DrDoom wrote:
I've been working on using this build and it seems strong so far. My main problem is when people stay on one base. How do you react to this when they are denying you scouting? If seems like you'll want to have different compositions if they are going for a marine scv all-in, versus a banshee all in.
A marine all in would have to hit by this 2 base push. It has lair tech. It would be a VERY late marine scv all in, stopped easily by the speed banes.
And again, this is for a 1-1-1 like fast expansion, or 2 rax fast expo. Not a 1 base play. If you scout one base, obviously play it safe until you can scout whats coming.
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Sweden995 Posts
Spoiler due to recent match:
+ Show Spoiler +Moonglade just did this against KawaiiRice in set 1 for those that have NASL VOD rights or will watch the EU restream. + Show Spoiler [Result] +Showed perfectly how this build utterly demolishes a low tank count. .
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I'm a big fan of roach/bane styles- I've found them very successful as most terrans prepare for mutas
Tactically it's always important to run the roaches in first to give the banes more time to run in!
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Awesome work and I can't wait to try this, Mr Bitter mentioned this on the NASL hence i found this ^^
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This attack is strictly meant for an opponent who expands, if he stays on 1 base, youd be crazy to try going up the ramp. if theres no expansion, proceed to play "normally" to prep for 1 base all-ins
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Thank you for not creating an arbitrary name for this build.
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I don't want to sound cynical, but isn't this like the original 14 gas 14 pool baneling zergling build that used to be the meta game? You kinda replaced lair tech with roaches and turned it into an all-in type of thing..
I am curious, wouldn't siege tank banshee be a good counter for this? I dunno if it is possible but if you get 1 rax 1 gas and then take the rest of your gases asap you can get a banshees and tanks which would hold off your attack especially if the terran is using his banshees properly (constantly moving them around and scouting) I guess that would also turn out to be like getting mutalisk in ZvZ, sure you have air and sure he has roaches and roaches don't shoot up, but danm you can do a lot of damage with roaches hahaha.
Seems interesting I'ves tarted ecorporating baneling busts into my ZvT because terrans are so used to crackling Infestor that they get careless at their front gates.
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awesome to see zerg utilizing early 2 base potential. Great post! Great strat. Been working on this kind of stuff for a while myself :3 awesome to see you posting this dood!
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Man! I tried this today before seening any post about this kind of strategy. It makes sense to attack when you opponent is at a weak point. I had pretty much the exact same comp. The thing was he had a bunch of tanks and bunkers out so I could not break him, sadface.
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Thanks for all the support guys, i intend to post a ZvP How to muta guide when i have some time
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Is there a timing attack for ZvT like what losira does for ZvP (8 roach push with rallied speedlings). Because in this strat, it seems like you don't have a specific timing attack.
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On May 30 2011 01:35 Trakky wrote:
Is there a timing attack for ZvT like what losira does for ZvP (8 roach push with rallied speedlings). Because in this strat, it seems like you don't have a specific timing attack.
It's actually the same kind of idea. The Roach Ling timing hit is really meant to kill sentries, pressure hard and force force fields to drain up energy. It resets the sentry energy build up. In this ZvT strat, you want to reset the tank count while really pressuring them into a more defensive mindset. Timing wise you should hit when they have 1 or 2 tanks and try to hit the natural hard. It's more important your composition and army is right than to hit a specific timing. Just make sure you hit before he gets a good number of tanks, as tanks do pretty well against both roaches and banelings.
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So would this strat's timing attack be a, save up 2 hatches worth of larvae with injects, make all roaches with them as speed finishes, then take some drones off gas, and rally speedlings in. Then you can drone up or expand after this.
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I've been a very big fan of this build for a while. Always loved to watch JEcho's ZvT videos on youtube. Never really managed to get the build just right so this guide really helped me out. Thanks !
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A reason why you go 14/14 vs. terran and not 15 hatch?
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On May 31 2011 20:24 Alpina wrote:
A reason why you go 14/14 vs. terran and not 15 hatch?
It's a four-page thread... question's been answered already (since I wanted to know as well)
EDIT: Page 2. Good job actually checking.
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On May 31 2011 20:25 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 20:24 Alpina wrote:
A reason why you go 14/14 vs. terran and not 15 hatch? It's a four-page thread... question's been answered already (since I wanted to know as well)
I didn't find the answer that why i ask lol
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On May 23 2011 13:23 JEcho wrote:
@fairforever, yes i do believe so, its just this way is more consistent, because if you go hatch first your more likely to lose drones / get hatch blocked and delayed etc. But if you can make it work definitely go for it
User was warned for this post
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Cool build J, we'll have to catch up sometime man. Can't wait to get off work to watch the replays.
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Apparently i got a shoutout on Nasl courtesy of mr.bitter, how cool is that
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hi i like this build very much. but how important is the plus 1 melee attack i rather have the gas for more roaches or banes.
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Builds like this make close positions vs. Z living hell if you don't finish off the Z in one fell swoop. Roach bling midgame is pretty sick, lots of people tend to stay on the unit comp throughout the game however, jecho seems to have his transition right.
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the +1 melee is very important, sometimes you will need to hit tanks with banes and it helps alot, not to mention 100/100 is only.. approx 3 extra banes, or 2 roaches?
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why so good jecho? this build hits hard i feel like an early siege tank build can stop it htough
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if by early seige tank, you mean going for 5-8 tanks and only have 10-15 marines then ya youd be right, fortunately for us, that style is very weak against muta ling, as you wont have the necessary marine count to protect from mutas. Guess what all terans blindly start prepping for?
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So you generally attack when baneling/roach speed/+1 melee finish? I'm actually surprised that this works as well as it does, even into terran bunkers/tanks. I'll have to try this out next time I have close positions.
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i kinda do a similiar build (actually i probably got the idea from this thread weeks ago).
what i found works well is saturate your main and nat (16-18 drones on minerals per base, 3 on each of 4 gases) and then start pumping units. i like to add a macro hatch when i am nearing saturation and then just pump roach/ling. when he pushes out make banelings, 4 gases means lots of banelings. reinforce with ling during the battle. after the battle turn the ling reinforcements into banelings, add a round of roaches and go kill him.
ive found it works especially well if the terran's first push comes off 1 base. after you defeat it, he will be setting up his expo and you can generally roll that easily.
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JEcho you are the man. This build is great, especially because a lot of terran just prepare for mutas with more marines and don't keep their tank count high.
BTW, all you zergs out there who need some help/someone to emulate/entertainment, check out this guy's stream. He really should be featured, he's a super legit guy and is amazing at Starcraft. He explains his actions during games at length and also gives lessons on stream, so there is plenty of info to go around.
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Tried this for the first time today (close positions on temple) and it worked amazingly! I'm so glad I've got this in my arsenal now.
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Master ranked Z here. This is an interesting build; especially since "Zerg timing attack" doesn't really exist in SC2 afaik. What do you transition into if he scouts you, goes heavy marauder, or banshee and defends his expo?
Obviously mutas are the good choice, but I worry that having spent a significant amount of gas on roach, baneling, and all the ups, that there may be a timing where a marauder counter would be difficult to defend.
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did this build against a terran. and he steamrolled me with seige tanks and maraders. not kool lol.
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On May 23 2011 02:18 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do.
This is a pretty important point.
One of the few terrans i see handle a natural expo properly is sixjax Major.
if T's have some trouble with this definitely check out some of his reps or catch him streaming, a lot to learn from his tvz
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At what time is this attack supposed to hit? I have the basic build down (with the need of a lot of refinement hitting I might add) at around 10.45. Is that around about the time you find it hits? I cant seem to open any of the replays to see
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so i started going ling bling HYDRA on 3 base with 3 evo chambers. you can attack right into the terrans nat and without mutas or infestors you have plenty of gas for mass banelings and upgrades. ive found +2 attack hydras are really key. ive found playing defensively until i hit 200 and then attacking is the best move (typical terran will be around 130-140 at this point).
ive played some masters terrans with this build and it has caused some extreme rage (been accused of 3 base all-inning, being a noob for building hydras, no micro a-move, being a noob for building units instead of drones, etc etc). for drops just split off a small ling bling hydra team and leave them at your expos or wherever.
the idea behind it is tanks and marauders destroy roaches, but do significantly worse against hydras (tanks kill roach and hydra in the same number of shots, but hydras do much more dps). the terran counters to hydra are marines and hellions for which you should have many banelings.
i think you could counter this build with mass tanks or mass hellions but if you are up against that then a simple scout + muta switch would work wonders. what im saying is be reactive like zerg should be, but against most of the standard terran builds ive faced this composition owns. another good idea is to build 5-6 token mutas to provoke typical terran builds/turrets, but then switch to hydras with a hidden hydra den.
i especially like hydras because they shoot down lifted buildings FAST, and can shoot up at ledges to hit tanks\marines parked up there (bring some overlords for vision), and kill stray medivacs in seconds. thors are also ez pickings for hydras. a nice pack of +2 hydras will absolutely destroy a tank line before the tanks can fire more then 3 times, and the lings are there to tank for the hydras. blings are to take out the terran wall and hopefully a good chunk of the marines. when i attack into the terran's nat with a maxed army i will generally lose most if not all of my ling bling but just a few hydras. and whats left can start immediately attacking buildings, and the rallied lings seal it.
i got the idea to try this from losing to thor\hellion pushes, in particular one game where i got dominated, and the next game got matched up against the same dude. i was semi raging and knew that ling roach was going to lose, so i said fuck it and went roach/hydra and won (it was this game that i noticed how critical +2 attack is). roach hydra is bad against marines so i switched the roaches out for ling bling and have done very well since.
edit: just played 3 games against my diamond terran bud (im diamond too). the first game i didnt tell him my plan and won fairly easily, hive tech i went ultras. second game he went heavy drops and the small hydra bling force at expos, plus spines, denied that. i went brood lords and feel they are much much stronger then ultras. third game he went raven battlecruiser tank marine and i rolled him with the same army (hydra, bling, brood lord). in this game he heavily bunkered my nat and i was probably behind for most of the game. i still easily rolled him with my maxed army vs his maxed army. he was a base up in this game and honestly stumped as to what he should do.
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With the recent uprising of hellion play, if someone goes BFH and an fe could this be like really good to hit them with?
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On June 30 2011 10:19 Eleaven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 02:18 PhiliBiRD wrote:
its a strong build, 2 base aggression from Zerg is underestimated. this can be extremely hard to stop without scouting or better yet, good base placement @ your expansion, which many terrans seem to not do. This is a pretty important point. One of the few terrans i see handle a natural expo properly is sixjax Major. if T's have some trouble with this definitely check out some of his reps or catch him streaming, a lot to learn from his tvz
Indeed, zerg 2 base-timings are really brutal. I'm not convinced that it is because it is particularly powerful (no more than a Terran 2 base except way faster) or because its most Terrans on ladder don't know the timings at all and write it off a 'cheese' so they don't prepare their builds for it when they 1 base (2 base vs all tech and no units) or 2 base expand (no units). Its probably the latter.
There's a reason you don't see 2 based aggression very much in tourneys.
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EPT
