With some slight variation this build can work against Protoss and Zerg as well. It requires fast teching to speedlings and instead of building an expo at 21 build a roach warren and a queen. Get about 20 speedlings and 3 roaches and if your timing is right you can be in the other players base at about the 5:30 mark and it's gg. In fact, if another zerg player doesn't prepare for this by building spine crawlers, something he would have to scout to see coming, it's almost a guaranteed win. Protoss can counter this by building an early forge and cannons but again if you have map control and can prevent them scouting it it's pretty solid.

Aerodynamic27

Canada115 Posts

May 23 2011 03:00 GMT

#23

Ive been doing this build against Terran for a while now and with great success. I'd like to point out that I always upgrade carapace over attack since it will allow your roaches survive an extra tank shot, and let zerglings survive 2 tank shots. This is extremely important so your units can actually get up close and do damage.
By the way, I'm not really sure what's the right way to engage, like which units should be sent in first. I usually just send the roaches with the banelings first, then send the lings once the wall is down. I'm wondering if there is a better way to engage seiged tanks with bunkers.

imareaver3

United States906 Posts

May 23 2011 03:21 GMT

#24

On May 23 2011 10:49 [Nosferatu] wrote:
With some slight variation this build can work against Protoss and Zerg as well. It requires fast teching to speedlings and instead of building an expo at 21 build a roach warren and a queen. Get about 20 speedlings and 3 roaches and if your timing is right you can be in the other players base at about the 5:30 mark and it's gg. In fact, if another zerg player doesn't prepare for this by building spine crawlers, something he would have to scout to see coming, it's almost a guaranteed win. Protoss can counter this by building an early forge and cannons but again if you have map control and can prevent them scouting it it's pretty solid.

Isn't that just wzp's build?

FXOjEcho

Canada318 Posts

May 23 2011 04:05 GMT

#25

lol this build is not meant to work against protoss or zerg, ZvZ is nothing like ZvT based on the fact that units can arrive in your base in seconds, and for ZvP forcefields would demolish this attack based on how late it comes. 3roach 20 speedlings will only kill some1 if they dont know what they are doing, or went for something cheesy and didnt have the standard amount of sentrys

NinjaX

Canada109 Posts

May 23 2011 04:16 GMT

#26

I've been looking for a way to play close positions, and I think I found it. This looks awesome =)

FairForever

Canada2392 Posts

May 23 2011 04:22 GMT

#27

Looks awesome - great idea. Just one question - do you think the build would be more successful opening hatch first? Since you're eventually expo-ing, if you can hold the early 2rax aggression or the hellion play (since roaches will probably start a bit later), wouldn't it be even more effective?

FXOjEcho

Canada318 Posts

May 23 2011 04:23 GMT

#28

@fairforever, yes i do believe so, its just this way is more consistent, because if you go hatch first your more likely to lose drones / get hatch blocked and delayed etc. But if you can make it work definitely go for it

apalemorning

Canada509 Posts

May 23 2011 04:45 GMT

#29

sexy as fuck. i love doing timing pushes as zerg, instead of the typical, try not to die to early pushes, reactive style.

also do you think you could write out the build order more concisely? i have lots of stuff to do but if i tried reading this while in game i'd lose.

/edit i did it

14gas
14pool
4 zerglings
if 2rax, make lings til safe
if 1rax1gas, drone
expo at 21
queen 22, roach warren if 1rax/1gas. if 2rax, banenest after queen
lair at 40 supply
evo chamber (roach warren if banenest, banenest is roach warren)
have 3 gas
start bane speed, roach speed +1 melee
roach and banes til 20 roach, 20 banes, and speedlings

correct me if anything is wrong

IzieBoy

United States865 Posts

May 23 2011 05:20 GMT

#30

so um what's the best counter to this?

would reapers(x5) into marauder/hellion work? how do i micro if i went marine/tank?

FXOjEcho

Canada318 Posts

May 23 2011 06:00 GMT

#31

apalemorning, that looks correct, izieboy, good positioning and mass tank

yanot

France130 Posts

May 23 2011 06:07 GMT

#32

JEcho, have you encountered a marauder/hellion push yet? Just theorycrafting but it could be another good terran counter. It will hit right when stimpack finishes, between 7:00 & 8:00 (or mb 9:00 with more marauders/hellions).

NeonFox

2373 Posts

May 23 2011 06:20 GMT

#33

This works suprisingly well, I use a build very similar to this, the main differences being I don't get roach speed and open hatch first. Most terrans expect a slow lair and a macro game after a 15 hatch and this build punishes them for not scouting enough.

I have a question though, how do you deal with banshees, do you prefer making extra queens or since you have the evo chamber already invest in spore crawlers?

Also, I like pulling drones from at least 1 gas to have more speedling reinforcements and be able to drone more after the attack, do you think this is a good idea or would you rather have the extra gas to tech faster afterwards?

Edit : spelling

DaeWang790

United States74 Posts

May 23 2011 06:26 GMT

#34

On May 23 2011 15:20 NeonFox wrote:
This works suprisingly well, I use a build very similar to this, the main differences being I don't get roach speed and open hatch first. Most terrans expect a slow lair and a macro game after a 15 hatch and this build punishes them for not scouting enough.

I have a question though, how do you deal with banshees, do you prefer making extra queens or since you have the evo chamber already invest in spore crawlers?

Also, I like pulling drones from at least 1 gas to have more speedling reinforcements and be able to drone more after the attack, do you think this is a good idea or would you rather have the extra gas to tech faster afterwards?

Edit : spelling

I believe the point of this build is to punish a terran expansion. The only real threat would be two-port banshee, which means terran is on one base so this build shouldn't be used. However, a 1-1-1 expansion with banshees should probably be dealt with best with a spore or two in each base.

He keeps getting the gas because he's expanding and teching to spire for mutas or whatnot. So you need that gas income to be constant.

FXOjEcho

Canada318 Posts

May 23 2011 07:22 GMT

#35

daewang, you are on the ball my man

Poelie

Netherlands53 Posts

May 23 2011 08:23 GMT

#36

OP stated that it is extremely important to make sure if he expands if not he's going 2port banshee. Could someone tell me around what time a terran should have expanded?

Umpteen

United Kingdom1570 Posts

May 23 2011 08:50 GMT

#37

On May 23 2011 17:23 Poelie wrote:
OP stated that it is extremely important to make sure if he expands if not he's going 2port banshee. Could someone tell me around what time a terran should have expanded?

Quick question from someone not playing at masters level: Round about where I'm playing, where Zerglings have corks on their claws so they don't hurt themselves, not seeing an expansion means very little. In the past I've 'deduced' banshees after drone-scouting double gas, no expansion, then two marines and a bunker at the ramp, only to have him roll out with a bunch of marines and marauders from four barracks while I'm still merrily droning and making queens. A lot of the Terrans I'm playing treat expanding as something you do when your pick-some-random-time-and-move-out-with-random-amount-of-stuff fails. Where would you say this build fits into that kind of nonsense?

[Nosferatu]

United States9 Posts

May 23 2011 09:43 GMT

#38

On May 23 2011 13:05 JEcho wrote:
lol this build is not meant to work against protoss or zerg, ZvZ is nothing like ZvT based on the fact that units can arrive in your base in seconds, and for ZvP forcefields would demolish this attack based on how late it comes. 3roach 20 speedlings will only kill some1 if they dont know what they are doing, or went for something cheesy and didnt have the standard amount of sentrys

He is right. It would really only work if the other player doesn't know what they are doing or goes for cheese. Tested this out a bit tonight. The only similarity to JEcho's build is that you still do 14pool and yeah I think wzp posted the build I was talking about a while back.

Mahtasooma

Germany475 Posts

May 23 2011 14:14 GMT

#39

This push absolutely has to do lots of damage, in your game against EatsyourLlama (or whatever he's called

) you just won despite of failing your push because you severely outplayed him with that runby after that.

In any other case, you have less income, equal bases, less drones, so you're basically already dead. very very well played against EatsyourLlama though.

In the game against DDE, it would have really helped him if he spent some of his 300 APM at the time to make his siege tanks stop attacking the rocks.