But you don't explain how in your "guide" you're blindly making units at food counts anyway, where's the "response" element in that?
If you scout hellions, roach/ling is the response. If you scout 2gate or 2rax pressure, 1base ling/bane is the response. If you scout a bunker and tanks at the top of their ramp, you may opt to just play macro instead of making as many roaches and lings.
Whether you execute an attack depends largely on your drone scouting and your zergling scouting, and also whether you perform that attack as a means to secure a small advantage or win the game outright depends on scouting and "feel". I make the example in my lecture how if you're doing roach ling against terran and you break up the ramp and you're doing tons of damage, you may continue to keep streaming lings to end the game. However, if you deny his expansion but he's able to defend the top of the ramp, it's much better to start droning yourself and possibly take a 3rd.
On October 23 2011 14:31 oOOoOphidian wrote: All-inning people who don't expect an all-in is about the summary of this "guide."
Yes, some openers are greedy or metagame an economic zerg, but a proper response and good scouting of your all-in will result in failure every time.
Why do these threads keep getting spammed all over the forum? It is really obnoxious to see huff and puff about absolutely no content.
Everyone seems to think that if Zerg is on the offensive it's an all-in build, and this is the type of misconception about aggressive zerg that I'm trying to argue against. It's not all-in, as long as you have planned followups in the situations where you just do damage but don't end the game. Example: you go for roach ling in ZvT and they get fast tanks and bunker their main. Well, you now can drone behind it and take a 3rd while they take a 2nd, maybe even delay their natural expand with the units you had intended to attack with. It is theoretically true that if you execute an early timing attack and it does no damage, you will be behind in the macro game. But you have to take into account that your attacks will almost always do some measure of damage, and if you can exploit map control and information that aggressive play gives you, you can move into macro games with several advantages.
I think anyone can agree there are pros and cons to aggressive and defensive play styles, and if you choose aggression then that's a viable stylistic choice that shouldn't be labeled so negatively.
Well whether an attack is an allin or not behind how much you get behind if your oppponent responds correctly. I think that regarding baneling busts and early roach pushes, its pretty much an allin as the terran should almost always be able to win the game (given equal mechanics) if he plays intelligently. Whether you have a follow up or not is kidna irrelevant. The follow up might work against most players, but whether it works against most high masters or other GM players is irrelevant, its whether it works again players who play correctly.
On October 23 2011 14:31 oOOoOphidian wrote: All-inning people who don't expect an all-in is about the summary of this "guide."
Yes, some openers are greedy or metagame an economic zerg, but a proper response and good scouting of your all-in will result in failure every time.
Why do these threads keep getting spammed all over the forum? It is really obnoxious to see huff and puff about absolutely no content.
Everyone seems to think that if Zerg is on the offensive it's an all-in build, and this is the type of misconception about aggressive zerg that I'm trying to argue against. It's not all-in, as long as you have planned followups in the situations where you just do damage but don't end the game. Example: you go for roach ling in ZvT and they get fast tanks and bunker their main. Well, you now can drone behind it and take a 3rd while they take a 2nd, maybe even delay their natural expand with the units you had intended to attack with. It is theoretically true that if you execute an early timing attack and it does no damage, you will be behind in the macro game. But you have to take into account that your attacks will almost always do some measure of damage, and if you can exploit map control and information that aggressive play gives you, you can move into macro games with several advantages.
I think anyone can agree there are pros and cons to aggressive and defensive play styles, and if you choose aggression then that's a viable stylistic choice that shouldn't be labeled so negatively.
Well whether an attack is an allin or not behind how much you get behind if your oppponent responds correctly. I think that regarding baneling busts and early roach pushes, its pretty much an allin as the terran should almost always be able to win the game (given equal mechanics) if he plays intelligently. Whether you have a follow up or not is kidna irrelevant. The follow up might work against most players, but whether it works against most high masters or other GM players is irrelevant, its whether it works again players who play correctly.
I disagree actually, I've had so many games where I've done an attack and expanded behind it. It's standard for other races and equally viable for zerg. Watch Dong Rae Gu against ThorZain or DRG against Strelok:
Watch how early his attacks come, yet how many drones he's able to make and the timing of his 3rd base.
Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
If you watched the lecture, you'd know. See you in season 4
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
If you watched the lecture, you'd know. See you in season 4
I find the guide well written. So good job. Idk how much of a good response you will get though just because people have a 'bad reputation' of you. Seems like you could post gold and theyd hate ya. Haters gonna hate though.
Even stephano plays 2 base aggression (even making macro hatchs before 3rd) quite often in zvt and to a lesser extent zvp. Aggression is what more zergs need, good job :/
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
If you watched the lecture, you'd know. See you in season 4
I find the guide well written. So good job. Idk how much of a good response you will get though just because people have a 'bad reputation' of you. Seems like you could post gold and theyd hate ya. Haters gonna hate though.
Even stephano plays 2 base aggression (even making macro hatchs before 3rd) quite often in zvt and to a lesser extent zvp. Aggression is what more zergs need, good job :/
We just lost to Waterloo last week in CSL. They have a large team with a lot of top players that seem to be very willing to coach/help everyone else. This is an awesome thread to learn from...especially since I'm a Zerg player!
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
If you watched the lecture, you'd know. See you in season 4
Even stephano plays 2 base aggression (even making macro hatchs before 3rd) quite often in zvt and to a lesser extent zvp. Aggression is what more zergs need, good job :/
I haven't seen much 2base aggression from Stephano, where did you see these games I'd love to watch.
Another relatively popular aggressive style of zerg is the roach/ling/bling w/drops in zvp that allows for some insanely powerful timing attacks when you reach +2 melee, allowing 1 bane to kill TONS of probes in 1 hit...4 banes totally wiping out a mineral line...
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
If you watched the lecture, you'd know. See you in season 4
Even stephano plays 2 base aggression (even making macro hatchs before 3rd) quite often in zvt and to a lesser extent zvp. Aggression is what more zergs need, good job :/
I haven't seen much 2base aggression from Stephano, where did you see these games I'd love to watch.
Im at work, so can't search for the replay/games effectively. But im positive he did it in multiple games at IPL3. He had a macro hatch multiple times before his third was dropped im pretty sure. I can't remember how much aggression he did off of it, but i remember talking to my bf during IPL about he was one of the few zergs that I saw take their third hatch late (or rather later than any normal macro zerg) I get off work in 2 hours. I'll try to find the replay or replays if possible.
One way you can convince people of the 'aggressive' style is to make it sound like the 'losira' style that was popular a while back. Strong 2 base timings with a 3rd dropping while doing it. Against toss that style completely rapes
edit: i believe he didn't neccesarrily do 'strong' timings every game and apply pressure. he seemed to drop the 3rd late sometimes just to be safe
On October 25 2011 03:10 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Another relatively popular aggressive style of zerg is the roach/ling/bling w/drops in zvp that allows for some insanely powerful timing attacks when you reach +2 melee, allowing 1 bane to kill TONS of probes in 1 hit...4 banes totally wiping out a mineral line...
I underutilized baneling drops I think it's something all zergs should experiment heavily with.
On October 23 2011 14:31 oOOoOphidian wrote: All-inning people who don't expect an all-in is about the summary of this "guide."
Yes, some openers are greedy or metagame an economic zerg, but a proper response and good scouting of your all-in will result in failure every time.
Why do these threads keep getting spammed all over the forum? It is really obnoxious to see huff and puff about absolutely no content.
Everyone seems to think that if Zerg is on the offensive it's an all-in build, and this is the type of misconception about aggressive zerg that I'm trying to argue against. It's not all-in, as long as you have planned followups in the situations where you just do damage but don't end the game. Example: you go for roach ling in ZvT and they get fast tanks and bunker their main. Well, you now can drone behind it and take a 3rd while they take a 2nd, maybe even delay their natural expand with the units you had intended to attack with. It is theoretically true that if you execute an early timing attack and it does no damage, you will be behind in the macro game. But you have to take into account that your attacks will almost always do some measure of damage, and if you can exploit map control and information that aggressive play gives you, you can move into macro games with several advantages.
I think anyone can agree there are pros and cons to aggressive and defensive play styles, and if you choose aggression then that's a viable stylistic choice that shouldn't be labeled so negatively.
Well whether an attack is an allin or not behind how much you get behind if your oppponent responds correctly. I think that regarding baneling busts and early roach pushes, its pretty much an allin as the terran should almost always be able to win the game (given equal mechanics) if he plays intelligently. Whether you have a follow up or not is kidna irrelevant. The follow up might work against most players, but whether it works against most high masters or other GM players is irrelevant, its whether it works again players who play correctly.
If anything this shows a better player punishing an extremely greedy player who starts building units at the 7:00 to 8:00 minute mark. This should not be a normal game.
On October 23 2011 14:31 oOOoOphidian wrote: All-inning people who don't expect an all-in is about the summary of this "guide."
Yes, some openers are greedy or metagame an economic zerg, but a proper response and good scouting of your all-in will result in failure every time.
Why do these threads keep getting spammed all over the forum? It is really obnoxious to see huff and puff about absolutely no content.
Everyone seems to think that if Zerg is on the offensive it's an all-in build, and this is the type of misconception about aggressive zerg that I'm trying to argue against. It's not all-in, as long as you have planned followups in the situations where you just do damage but don't end the game. Example: you go for roach ling in ZvT and they get fast tanks and bunker their main. Well, you now can drone behind it and take a 3rd while they take a 2nd, maybe even delay their natural expand with the units you had intended to attack with. It is theoretically true that if you execute an early timing attack and it does no damage, you will be behind in the macro game. But you have to take into account that your attacks will almost always do some measure of damage, and if you can exploit map control and information that aggressive play gives you, you can move into macro games with several advantages.
I think anyone can agree there are pros and cons to aggressive and defensive play styles, and if you choose aggression then that's a viable stylistic choice that shouldn't be labeled so negatively.
Well whether an attack is an allin or not behind how much you get behind if your oppponent responds correctly. I think that regarding baneling busts and early roach pushes, its pretty much an allin as the terran should almost always be able to win the game (given equal mechanics) if he plays intelligently. Whether you have a follow up or not is kidna irrelevant. The follow up might work against most players, but whether it works against most high masters or other GM players is irrelevant, its whether it works again players who play correctly.
If anything this shows a better player punishing an extremely greedy player who starts building units at the 7:00 to 8:00 minute mark. This should not be a normal game.
Well even against more standard players, the timing is very effective at doing damage, keeping you safe from harass while you take a 3rd.
On October 24 2011 22:04 chrusher97 wrote: Funny how he answers every post except the ones asking why he claims GM when he isnt, Also I'm GM with 1k games played and never seen you so I doubt you have GM mmr either
Have you even tried looking at sc2ranks. You can clearly see he was GM season 2.
On October 25 2011 03:10 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Another relatively popular aggressive style of zerg is the roach/ling/bling w/drops in zvp that allows for some insanely powerful timing attacks when you reach +2 melee, allowing 1 bane to kill TONS of probes in 1 hit...4 banes totally wiping out a mineral line...
Such a strong way to play if you have the micro to manage the drops well. I like the big roach armies with burrow/move/upgrades. That way I can be very mobile, try to do damage, snipe his 3rd, nydus, roach drop, etc. until I have broodlords out.
Very nice. I feel that this style can be very powerful, especially from a psychological standpoint. Say in a best of 3 you were to utilize this type of hyper-agression and win. This would "unsettle" all but the strongest mentalities, and give you much more than simply a 1 game advantage, but also a psychological advantage. Even if you were to lose, having someone play so agressively against you is certainly disconcerting for the opponent.
On October 25 2011 23:27 Bagration wrote: Very nice. I feel that this style can be very powerful, especially from a psychological standpoint. Say in a best of 3 you were to utilize this type of hyper-agression and win. This would "unsettle" all but the strongest mentalities, and give you much more than simply a 1 game advantage, but also a psychological advantage. Even if you were to lose, having someone play so agressively against you is certainly disconcerting for the opponent.
Well played, July would be proud.
That's a great point Bagration, I think it's absolutely necessary to have some hyper aggressive or even all in builds under your belt to "mix it up" in tournaments, clan wars, and even when you play the same opponent a few times in a row on ladder. Just make sure it's not too obvious that you're doing something new.
EPT
I think it's something all zergs should experiment heavily with.
