EPT[G] Comparison of PvP Builds - Page 2
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Moosegills
United States558 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On October 23 2011 11:37 Moosegills wrote: I would heavily agree with the statement that this is way too oversimplified for players that are good at, and understand the matchup. On the other hand, for anyone diamond and even masters could find this very helpful to understand "normal" builds in pvp, what they are good against and bad against to create a better decisions as a whole in the matchup On October 23 2011 11:21 mage36 wrote: wait a minute. this says fast expo is the best build to do, generally. As all the other builds are less than that except for blink. :O how about you read the post before making one urself!? | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Also immortal expand > colo push on any map. Colo's on one base are a huge investment and non-range colo's don't do well against range 6 immortals.. Colo's aren't too good in low number fights either as the oppurtunities for surrounds etc are much bigger. Their slow movement also makes it terrible to pus early with as by the time you arrive at your opponents expo they'll have 1 more robo unit extra already. Edit: excluding 3 or 4 gates is also a odd choice, as they are still reasonably popular and impact the choices by quite a bit. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Its a pleasure to see this pop up on the strategy forum, bravo  | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 23 2011 20:10 Markwerf wrote: This seems like such an oversimplification that the information isn't useful anymore. Like anihc and others said there are too many variations for the builds which vastly change how each build is working. Also many things are too map dependent. Capturing this information in a scheme like this as it will either get way too complex by adding all variables or it will say nothing which is pretty much the case now. Also immortal expand > colo push on any map. Colo's on one base are a huge investment and non-range colo's don't do well against range 6 immortals.. Colo's aren't too good in low number fights either as the oppurtunities for surrounds etc are much bigger. Their slow movement also makes it terrible to pus early with as by the time you arrive at your opponents expo they'll have 1 more robo unit extra already. Edit: excluding 3 or 4 gates is also a odd choice, as they are still reasonably popular and impact the choices by quite a bit. Immortal expands can't hold equally greedy colossi allins. Excluding 3 or 4 gates is because every build except fast expand can be played either safely to hold 4 gates or greedily to not hold 4 gates that there's not much of a point including those into the chart. | ||
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Amornthep
Singapore2605 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On October 23 2011 20:20 NrGmonk wrote: Immortal expands can't hold equally greedy colossi allins. Excluding 3 or 4 gates is because every build except fast expand can be played either safely to hold 4 gates or greedily to not hold 4 gates that there's not much of a point including those into the chart. kcdc explained it pretty well, colossi allins are too costly to have a chance against immortal expand. If you don't get range your expensive colossi are just victim to immortals, if you do get range the economy of the expo will have paid off and they can simply swarm you with units. Expansion has always been quite popular in robo vs robo scenario's because of this and is now even safer since robo -> blink builds are slower and immortals got buffed (helping both against robo-blink and fast colossi).. With the same argument your excluding 3 or 4 gates you could exclude DT builds as well as any build can be adapted to stop that and almost any build can lose against it given no detection.. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On October 23 2011 21:21 Markwerf wrote: kcdc explained it pretty well, colossi allins are too costly to have a chance against immortal expand. If you don't get range your expensive colossi are just victim to immortals, if you do get range the economy of the expo will have paid off and they can simply swarm you with units. Expansion has always been quite popular in robo vs robo scenario's because of this and is now even safer since robo -> blink builds are slower and immortals got buffed (helping both against robo-blink and fast colossi).. With the same argument your excluding 3 or 4 gates you could exclude DT builds as well as any build can be adapted to stop that and almost any build can lose against it given no detection.. You won't be able to target the colossi with immortals versus a player who controls well. The expansion also will not pay for itself by the time a 2 colossi push comes. | ||
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UberDrive
United States144 Posts
On October 23 2011 05:46 blooblooblahblah wrote: Chargelot Archon is more of a midgame composition rather than a build. You can transition into it from a lot of these builds. I've been using this build with reasonable success: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233994 I'd say it beats most expansion/robo openings, aside from fast Colossus, as well as DTs (which is why gas stealing is great). | ||
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Xujhan
Canada65 Posts
On October 23 2011 21:31 NrGmonk wrote: You won't be able to target the colossi with immortals versus a player who controls well. The expansion also will not pay for itself by the time a 2 colossi push comes. Is there any chance we could get replays from some of your test games to see the builds and timings for ourselves? Otherwise this is just going to be an endless repetition of "No, I'm right!" | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 23 2011 10:42 Selendis wrote: Yeah I don't agree with this chart. It's very pretty and has the potential to be very useful but in my experience fast expands in pvp are a quick way to lose. In fact I win pretty much all of my pvps by waiting for my opponent to expand then killing him with my 400mineral stronger army. I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 24 2011 09:01 Tyrant0 wrote: I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote: I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' | ||
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Darclite
United States1021 Posts
On October 24 2011 08:50 Xujhan wrote: Is there any chance we could get replays from some of your test games to see the builds and timings for ourselves? Otherwise this is just going to be an endless repetition of "No, I'm right!" Yeah this is actually really important. I've been hoping for someone to make a guide exactly like this (a grid of what beats/has an edge over what), but now I can't really tell how I'm supposed to use this. For example, I would consider what my PvP is as an "immortal expand" but the time I get my expansion varies greatly depending on what I see, so I'd like to see both how you do it (because you're better than me), what beats it and what I need to watch for as a result. Also, when to be where, when to push, how to engage, etc. are useful to know. So if you could add a replay for each matchup or at least just one example of what each build is (so we know what is being compared to what), it would help. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On October 24 2011 09:09 Tyrant0 wrote: It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote: I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. I'm a zerg player, but when I offrace as P and I play a PvP I typically always 1gate FE which is super greedy (unless it's TDA), even at midmasters level this works (although I'm sure once you get to higher levels they get better and scouting and rescouting and figuring out what you're doing based on your units). Obviously it's disguised as an agressive 4gate (with the original 20probe cut until I force scouting probe out). | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 24 2011 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote: Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. In other words, a coin flip. I feel like we're discussing two entirely different circumstances. | ||
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epeezy
United States3 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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