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On October 24 2011 09:25 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:09 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:01 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 23 2011 10:42 Selendis wrote:
Yeah I don't agree with this chart. It's very pretty and has the potential to be very useful but in my experience fast expands in pvp are a quick way to lose.
In fact I win pretty much all of my pvps by waiting for my opponent to expand then killing him with my 400mineral stronger army. I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. In other words, a coin flip. I feel like we're discussing two entirely different circumstances.
If you can tell a player cannot 4 gate you (stole your gas, has two gas, used chrono on probes) then you can 1 Gate FE reactively and win without coinflipping.
We're discussing the same thing, you're just being inaccurate and pessimistic about it.
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Thanks so much for this. Great compilation and chart.
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On October 24 2011 09:34 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 09:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:09 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:01 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 23 2011 10:42 Selendis wrote:
Yeah I don't agree with this chart. It's very pretty and has the potential to be very useful but in my experience fast expands in pvp are a quick way to lose.
In fact I win pretty much all of my pvps by waiting for my opponent to expand then killing him with my 400mineral stronger army. I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. In other words, a coin flip. I feel like we're discussing two entirely different circumstances. If you can tell a player cannot 4 gate you (stole your gas, has two gas, used chrono on probes) then you can 1 Gate FE reactively and win without coinflipping. We're discussing the same thing, you're just being inaccurate and pessimistic about it.
That's assuming they even gas steal or let you see a 2nd gas at all. In every other case it's totally blind. It just looks like a 4 gate, especially when you're aggressive. I'm pretty sure I'm entirely accurate. The 1 gate FE is just an abuse of the current meta game. Not that it's a bad build.
The other circumstance of throwing down a nexus in every other case that isn't an FE is much too situational to arbitrarily declare a one base protoss will kill him every time.
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On October 24 2011 09:40 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 09:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:09 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:01 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 23 2011 10:42 Selendis wrote:
Yeah I don't agree with this chart. It's very pretty and has the potential to be very useful but in my experience fast expands in pvp are a quick way to lose.
In fact I win pretty much all of my pvps by waiting for my opponent to expand then killing him with my 400mineral stronger army. I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. In other words, a coin flip. I feel like we're discussing two entirely different circumstances. If you can tell a player cannot 4 gate you (stole your gas, has two gas, used chrono on probes) then you can 1 Gate FE reactively and win without coinflipping. We're discussing the same thing, you're just being inaccurate and pessimistic about it. That's assuming they even gas steal or let you see a 2nd gas at all. In every other case it's totally blind.
Nobody said you have to do it blind...
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On October 24 2011 09:42 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 09:40 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:34 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:25 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:09 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 24 2011 09:04 CecilSunkure wrote:On October 24 2011 09:01 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 23 2011 10:42 Selendis wrote:
Yeah I don't agree with this chart. It's very pretty and has the potential to be very useful but in my experience fast expands in pvp are a quick way to lose.
In fact I win pretty much all of my pvps by waiting for my opponent to expand then killing him with my 400mineral stronger army. I agree that FE's in PvP seem suicidal, even in a slightly less chaotic meta game. Still, it varies drastically on whether or not taking a Nexus is an auto lose when the other player hits at the right time. I fast expand in PvP pretty often, and I do just fine. I actually win every time I've done it this past couple weeks, because I know when and how to. It still varies on both player's openings and the map. Also, define 'fast.' Of course it varies. If you do it at the wrong time, you are at a disadvantage, and at the right time, an advantage. I'd say fast is something like a 1 Gate FE after the first Stalker is out. In other words, a coin flip. I feel like we're discussing two entirely different circumstances. If you can tell a player cannot 4 gate you (stole your gas, has two gas, used chrono on probes) then you can 1 Gate FE reactively and win without coinflipping. We're discussing the same thing, you're just being inaccurate and pessimistic about it. That's assuming they even gas steal or let you see a 2nd gas at all. In every other case it's totally blind. Nobody said you have to do it blind...
Fair enough.
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Somebody should do a guide on sase's 2gate expo into robo (usually followed up with sentry drop) It seems solid and I've never seen him outright die to anything.
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I find it rather odd that 5:35 4gate allin isn't on this chart. I have beaten countless fast expands by doing a standard 4gate
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SaSe 2 gate expo robo would be cool idea. He prooly harrash with 2 sentries and forcefields. Nice but you should not fail with sentries.. Lots of gas.
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I honestly think 4gate should be in here, not because it's viable but because people still use it on ladder...
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United States8476 Posts
On October 24 2011 19:25 Leroyx2 wrote:
I honestly think 4gate should be in here, not because it's viable but because people still use it on ladder...
There'd be no point. As I've said beore, every build except fast expand can be played to either hold 4 gate or not hold 4 gate.
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What about a 2 gate proxy (dont know if its the right term, building gates in the center of the map). I tend to do this on maps such as nezarim, shattered, Antiga, and an in base proxy on xel naga. How do you feel about searching for the cheese and how it counters FE, 1 gate fast immortals, and a lot of other builds that lack room for early scouting and early units?
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On October 25 2011 01:28 Peanutbutter717 wrote:
What about a 2 gate proxy (dont know if its the right term, building gates in the center of the map). I tend to do this on maps such as nezarim, shattered, Antiga, and an in base proxy on xel naga. How do you feel about searching for the cheese and how it counters FE, 1 gate fast immortals, and a lot of other builds that lack room for early scouting and early units?
All builds have the same 12 gate 14 gas opening... Why would your build matter against proxies? You shouldn't even decide on a build without scouting info anyway.
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Really nice and simple guide 
i've been playing around with 2 gate + robo expand and have had ALOT of succes. the only build that i have consistently lost to is the either dt into some sort of charge archon 1 base allin or sometimes 5gate + hts for archon chargelot allin.
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This guide just keeps on reinforcing my feeling that PvP has become purely a coin flip. As far as I know, there is no build that will give you an equal amount of chances to win vs your opponent, all PvP builds counter something and get countered by something else. Anyone else miss the previous pure 4 gate PvP where what mattered was skill and execution?
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I'm really interested in trying out the 3 gate phoenix build that people have been mentioning around here for a few weeks. I've tried searching for a BO/guide here on TL but haven't been able to find anything. I found a 2 gate stargate build created back in february that would probably work now but if anyone has a link to a BO/guide or VOD of the 3 gate phoenix build I'd be very grateful!
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Where/how would the Adelscott build fit into all this?
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United States8476 Posts
On November 01 2011 08:26 Imperium11 wrote:
Where/how would the Adelscott build fit into all this?
lol..........
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I think this is really good and I appreciate the thread. I've been out for two months so my last go to build in P vs P was a super safe anti 4 gate in to Robo/Blink. It feels very out of date now so I'm glad someone has taken his time to explain the general theme of the current P vs P "metagame". My question is though, which build should I choose to learn? I can't help feeling that the 1 gate expand builds seem so vulnerable to all ins so I feel opted to go for an Immortal expand build and maybe with time just cut down to a pure 1 gate expand. What are your thoughts on that? If it helps I'm currently a newly promoted Masters player.
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i still feel like immortal/expand has the least holes. Due to blink nerf and vision nerf there's no way to lose to a blink timing up your ramp so you can always get away with obs first. I've occasionally ditched the immortal if i scout a stargate fast enough, and not chronoing the first immortal. I usually begin a robo bay but have the ability to cancel that as well if i see robo/blink.
Playing this way makes pvp way less of a coinflip and more of a reactive build. Btw my opener is an 11gate into 2gate robo which holds a 4gate just fine and looks like a 4gate itself.
The only issue i've been having with immortal/expo is when exactly to expo since if i start it too early i get FF contained with no massive units out for a while, but waiting for an extra immortal and units delays the nexus way too much. I think i am going to add a mandatory warp prism to elevator out/harass into the build and see how that works.
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I really appreciate this as a general overview. I know some are nitpicking the results you're describing but I enjoy the general basis of what you're trying to portray. I've been a master zerg player since beta and I've been greatly debating going Protoss for season 4 just to try it out. I will definitely book mark this thread in case I take the toss plunge. :D
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