• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:24
CEST 00:24
KST 07:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off6[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax5Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris30Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax What mix of new and old maps do you want in the next 1v1 ladder pool? (SC2) : A Eulogy for the Six Pool Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away 2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
No Rain in ASL20? BW General Discussion Flash On His 2010 "God" Form, Mind Games, vs JD BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group E [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro24 Group D [ASL20] Ro24 Group B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment"
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Breaking the Meta: Non-Stand…
TrAiDoS
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3470 users

[G] TvZ 3OC Mech into bio end game

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 00:49:11
October 21 2011 09:22 GMT
#1
Hi people, I'm a mid-masters terran bringing to you a guide to what I believe is a very strong build that I have currently experimented and tested many times against zergs, and I've decided to share it.


Introduction of the build
+ Show Spoiler +

this build focuses on opening with 3 orbitals very early which will send your economy sky rocketing and at the same time allows you to turtle and amass a very strong mecharmy before you push out and totally annihilate the zerg player.

You will go from this:
[image loading]

To this:
[image loading]

And in the next minute or so, this:
[image loading]


this is absolutely NOT for someone who wants to go marine tank so do not attempt at all to get 3 orbitals if you plan to go marine tank




The Units
+ Show Spoiler +

Your army will comprise of very heavy mech from start and possibly end game. Why I say possibly end game, because how you use your army, as well as how the zerg player will attack you will possibly lead to you having a bio army in the end game. I will touch on this later in the guide

Units that you will use:
Helions (Blue Flame of course)
Siege Tanks
Thors
Vikings
*Marines
*Medivacs

*these units come into play if your mech army gets obliterated


Why mech
+ Show Spoiler +
I tend to favor mech more because it gives me some form of control over the game
- helions give me early scouting and harassment potential
- thors will help reduce the effectiveness of muta harass, couple with vikings and turrets render mutas inert
- the power of siege tanks are just so overwhelming there isnt a reason why not to go mech

-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons

- marines although they do high dmg, do not entirely prevent mutas from doing harassment dmg. also, marines are extremely weak to ling bane


The Opener
+ Show Spoiler +

this will be your standard reactor helion expand

10 Depot
12 rax
13 refinery
factory at 100 gas
*build 3-4 marines depending on the pressure youre applying (see pressure section)
add a reactor to your barracks
swap factor to reactor
drop a CC after the first 4 helions
drop a second factory
tech lab on rax
swap factory to tech lab
research blue flame or siege mode depending on scouting information (I'll get back to this later)
3rd OC goes down
make an armory
+1 vehicle weapons when armory is done


How and when to get your 3rd OC
+ Show Spoiler +

Here's the tricky part, how do you get the third OC without falling to roach pressure or baneling busts?

And how soon do you get it?

The keyword is pressure.


The Pressure

Pressuring the zerg to make extra lings or spinecrawlers will definitely help boost your confidence in pulling off a third OC

any economic dmg you do in the form of extra lings, or a drone or two, is more than enough to help you get started

Slight Pressure
+ Show Spoiler +
This is very light pressure that will force a few extra lings and maybe delay mining time for a few drones
if the zerg overreacts and makes a spine or possibly sends all his drones to attack, the dmg has been done

What you do:
After your refinery drops down @13, send your next SCV thats in production out to scout

now once your barracks is done, build a marine ASAP and rally it to where the zerg base is, or where it might be

depending on the map size you may either find the zerg base before or after the hatchery is done building (assuming they 14hatch before pool [which generally they do])

if your SCV reaches the base while the hatchery is half way done, you can drop a bunker like this:
[image loading]

usually the zerg will send out 4 drones or more the second they see this to take out that SCV, however due to the placement of the bunker, sometimes your SCV might move into a position where he cant get hit at all like so: (unfortunately this is a game with a friend just to show the bunker placement so thats why theres no reaction)
[image loading]

and finally if the bunker completes, get your marine in and leave your SCV behind the bunker to repair like so
[image loading]

this will end up forcing a lot of lings and maybe some spines, if they send their lings with the queen, focus fire down the lings which will in turn cause them to make a few more for safe measure after the bunker is removed

before the bunker is destroyed, get your marines out and salvage it, making the pressure even more cost effective for you

*even if the bunker doesnt complete, you would cost the drones a lot of mining time and maybe forced a few units, and in that aspect, the dmg has been done*

** in some cases, a good player will use his drones and his lings to intercept the approaching marine and kill it, so even if your bunker completes, you wont be able to put anything inside. this is fine because you would have still forced the drones to lose mining time as they intercept your marine(s)**


if your SCV reaches the base when the hatchery is complete, you can still do minor pressure like so:
[image loading]

effectively it wouldn't a very heavy economic impact, but you would have done some dmg, like drones losing mining time and a couple of extra lings:
[image loading]

and any dmg done is good



Heavy Pressure
+ Show Spoiler +

This can may seem a bit cheesy but really if your opponent has been careless with his overlord placement or does not have a drone patrolling his ramp, you are gonna inflict some very heavy dmg to his economy which will set him back very far.

basically the same thing applies, you send the SCV scout out to look for his base, but you also check for his overlord placement by the natural

if its placed in a bad spot, you can pull off a double bunker at the ramp

example being:

[image loading]


i noticed his overlord in a bad spot which makes him unable to see the first bunker
[image loading]

i drop down my second bunker
[image loading]

by the time he reacts my first bunker is complete and my first marine is on approach
[image loading]

this is what I've forced
[image loading]

and the amount of dmg ive done, one queen goes down as well as few lings and a spine
[image loading]

but the major dmg has been done

now because I know the amount of pressure I've done has been sufficient I can move on to this safely without worry of much pressure
[image loading]



Following your initial pressure, you can send in your helions (reactor factory opening) to do some scouting, catch a few drones if you're lucky, stop creep spreading(because you have 3 orbitals you can scan at least 2-3 times if you want), and kill lings


Very important things to note
+ Show Spoiler +

As you send your first scouting SCV into his base, check his for his gas:
- does he have 3 drones on gas?
depending on the amount of dmg you did, you can expect a baneling bust (has yet to happen) or fast roaches (happens most of the time)
- 1 drone on gas?
he maybe make a few roaches and send them to your base
- no drones on gas?
you dont have to worry about roaches or banes for awhile
- has an overlord scouted your base? did it catch sight of the 3rd OC?
- you drop a scan (because you have so much energy from 3OCs) and spot a roach warren building or being built


Why its important:
- If the overlord has scouted the 3rd OC very early, there is a strong chance that he might hit a timing with some roaches because he knows that all you will have are BFH, which do nothing to helions

- If you see him continue collecting gas with 3 drones, either:
1. expect a baneling bust (which should be no problem because they usually follow with lings that get roasted by BFH
2. he sends about 10-12 roaches which will end the game if you made no siege tanks or do no not have siege mode, if you made a thor it can be helpful but if the roaches break past you wall and get into the base, expect the game to end or heavy dmg to your economy.

- If you scan and spotted the roach warren, you'd better have at least 2 siege tanks with siege mode ready or the game WILL end, I guarantee it

*what you get from your tech lab-ed factory is entirely based on what you have scouted



How to proceed from here
+ Show Spoiler +

You have 3 OCs now, 2 factories, and an armory. What do you do?

- Drop 1 more factory
- Get an engineering bay
- Keep producing SCVs from each OC until you're 100% sure its safe to move to your natural*

*You do this by scouting with your helions and scanning
if you see him making a lot of roaches, you might not want to move out until you have 3-4 siege tanks maybe a thor, and a bunch of helions to buffer.

once you've safely expanded to your natural, you need to start walling off different sections so that zerg has:
1. one point of entry to you natural
2. to run into your wall and take siege first



Walling off
+ Show Spoiler +

This is extremely important. Not only do you need to wall off your main, you have to wall off your natural as well, because a if a big clump or roaches come, even with 3 tanks you're going to get rolled over as they right up in the face of your tanks.

However, if you've walled it off, even if the roaches do approach, they have to get through the wall, and while doing so take so much tank dmg that they will either:
- all be wiped out by the time they approach your tanks
- or retreat after the first shelling


here's a few different ways you might want to wall off on different maps:

Xel'Naga Cavverns
some may know this as Tasteless' Secret Hallway, or even John's Common Knowledge Hallway, either way, wall it off to prevent ling runbys or sneaky banes blowing up your SCVs
[image loading]

Also on Xel'Naga Caverns
There are 2 entrances to your natural, its personal preference which side you wall off, personally, I wall off the one closest to my ramp so that if any attacks come they have to go around as well as engage my army before they even attempt to get into my main
this also a good preventative measure for mass ling runbys
[image loading]

Antiga Shipyard
[image loading]

Shakuras Plateau
[image loading]

Tal'Darim Altar
[image loading]




Staying Active
+ Show Spoiler +

- After you've moved over to your natural, you need to constantly produce tanks as well as 2-3 thors (to defend against mutas) drop down more factories if need ( i have 4 and very rarely 5 at the most)

- Make a starport and attach it with a reactor
this is EXTREMELY important, after your 4th factory you should have this up immediately

- keep upgrading vehicle weapons

- You have a reactor-ed factory, always make sure to make a couple of helions and move them out to do harassment, prevent creep spreading, and if you see an opportunity to roast some drones, do it

- Stay on top of your unit production.

- Make sure to be making 2-3 depots at a time (with the amount of tanks and thors you're making you HAVE to make this many, or you can always supply drop because you will have a LOT of energy)

- Scout for the third, and any hidden expansion,

- Harass the expansions with helions if you can

- Scan for what tech hes going for, infestors, etc.
- Scan for spire
if you spot the spire, research turret range and start making a couple of turrets to defend your important structures or your mineral line



refer to my turret guide here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047


Economy and Production
+ Show Spoiler +

You've expanded to your natural, and you've walled it off. Now you need to continue making either siege tanks or thors depending on what unit composition your opponent is going for. If you see heavy muta (and by heavy i mean from 20 onwards) you need to start making a more thors and less siege tanks, and a some vikings, 8 at the most

Your economy is going to be booming, with 3 OCs, you can have 5-6 mules going at a time, and even on 2 base you will see you mineral income hit around 2k per min

because of this high income, you are going to be producing units, constantly but at the same time build up a huge bank

if you have over 1000 minerals and have units producing, make another CC in preparation for your 3rd expansion, once its done, float it over and turn it into a planetary

if you have over 1600 minerals or more, you can drop 2 CCs down and keep producing units



What units to make
+ Show Spoiler +

Here is where you decide to build what to counter what the zerg player makes

- if you scan and see the infestation bit, and you've been seeing heavy roach play, make lots of tanks, have at least 3-4 thors

why:
- thors are not really effective against roaches even with mass repair, seriously do not bother making more than 4 thors. they are just here to act as a buffer and a sort of shield so that your tanks can take out the roaches and infestors,

- having too many thors may lead to them being neural-ed and thats bad

- your siege tanks will be doing so much dmg that roach armies of up to 50-60 roaches will melt away instantly, if you've kept up with your weapon upgrades which you should have, your siege tanks will do 65dmg vs armored, thats 2 hits per roach if you factor in splash dmg


-if you spot your opponent going heavy muta ling, you want to get a lot of thors, upwards to 6 and some vikings, but keep at least 6-7 siege tanks and make lots of BFH


why:
- if you opponent is muta heavy, he is going to magic box you VERY often, and even with 6 thors you will lose to 30 mutas

- thats why you have the vikings to come in, you need 8 -10 vikings at this point so that when against the mutas, you will have the better end of the trade off

- you need at least 10 BFH if you see the opponent going heavy ling to compliment his mutas, this way when they attack, your thors wont sometimes bug out and waste their slow attacks on lings, the BFH will take care of it

- the siege tanks are there in case of any heavy banelings. sometimes the zerg makes about 15 - 20 mutas, lots of lings and of upwards of 30 banelings, this will definitely roll over your army if you do not have siege tanks in siege mode target firing the banes



- if you spot the greater spire, start making vikings if you haven't already, and if your army is attacking make, sure by the time the brood lords reach your tanks that you are unsieged,

- if there is not ground army to compliment the corruptors, send your ground army to take out his bases, even though you will lose the air battle, he will lose his production and eventually, the game.



why:
- the best counter to brood lords are vikings of course, you wont need to make too many vikings but 8-10 is a nice number to make depending on how many corruptors or mutas are out

- the thors you have will help deal some extra dmg to corruptors


- if you spot the ultralisk cavern, immediately start mass producing marines as well as medivacs and siege tanks

why:
- it might just be me but i find that a lot of marines do very well against ultra's especially with + 3 upgrades
- siege tanks do surprising well against ultras with marines as well, and if the zerg makes some mass bane transition with the ultras, you wont have to worry about gosu splitting as much

**refer to a later section of this guide when we talk about the bio transition
- if you see you opponent going mass infestors, (like upwards of over 9-10), don't worry, you dont need ghosts, but you can make them if youre comfortable. just make lots of siege tanks

why:
- siege tanks will destroy infestors before they even get in range to neural, and if they try to mass fungal, they are probably going to splatter all over the place.





When and how to attack
+ Show Spoiler +

You will almost never attack until you hit around 170 supply. this is when your army reaches nearly its highest efficiency, and most tradeoffs against zerg will end up in your favor heavily

Focus heavily on turtling and inch out slightly to cover your third expansion depending on the map type.

Scout frequently to find out where his army is so that when you move out, you will never be caught off guard.

Scan for the ultralisk cavern. Generally if you spot the ultralisk cavern and following that there is a battle, you can expect ultra's very soon, if thats the case, you can collect your whole army and when you engage the ultra's you wont even need to siege, just focus fire and watch them splatter 1 by 1. Thors and tanks with + 3 weapons do an insane amount of dmg.

Scan for the greater spire, if you spot it, being made, or already made, you need to start viking production asap, if the brood lords ever reach your ground army, never siege up and never try to engage it with your ground army (mainly the thors). move far away from the brood lords and attack his base

When it gets to the late game, do not ever.. EVER go for the zergs main base. you might think, "but all his tech is in there if i destroy it he cant make units."
NO. just NO.

attack his expansions instead, slowly starve him to the point where he can't make heavy gas units like brood lords and ultras, and then end his suffering. You can usually hit and expo or 2 after engaging an army cost efficiently.

if you end up having not as good of a trade, depending on your location, you can snipe a base, take out the retreating drones ( with BFH) and then retreat and regroup



Where the bio comes in
+ Show Spoiler +

because you are playing a very heavy mech army, generally most engage are going to be extremely cost efficient for you (if you kept up with the upgrades)

however in the case you do lose a large chunk of your army, you want to be able to replenish it ASAP to continue your assault on the enemy base

i will explain how i achieve such quick replenishment (as seen in the introduction pictures)

Because you have such a high economy from 3OCs off the bat, and because you will be turtling a lot, you are going to have banked up a lot of minerals. by a lot, i mean up to 3000 or more. making more than 5 orbitals would be useless, so instead i throw down 6-8 rax with reactors

Since you also have 3-4 factories with tech labs, just pump out siege tanks from them, you will have enough anti air with marines and vikings (for brood lords) so you wont need any thors from here on out

This is how replenish my supply extremely quickly and often times this will win you the game

***Some extremely important things to note:

- after you research turret range, immediately begin researching + 1 weapons for your marines, drop another ebay and start researching + 1 armor if you want your marines to be even more overpowered.

- make sure to get a rax with a tech lab and research stim + shields as well.

- all this is done even as you're meching, so even if you have 1 rax, you are preparing for the transition to bio as a safety measure, and when you do transition over, you will have 3/3 or at least + 3 weapons marines and you will be unstoppable



Why Marines only
the amount of minerals you collect from having 3 OCs is just so insane, that mixed together with the cost efficient mech army will allow you to have such a large bank.

reactor-ed marines are can be produced very fast and with 3/3, towards the end game its like ranged zerglings with stim and medivacs healing them, you can just keep pumping them out

and once you have a ball of 40 marines, not even a roach army or ultras can stop you, all you need to do is stim and focus fire each and every one of the roaches or ultras and barrel through the rest of the game

Key things to remember
+ Show Spoiler +
- always make sure your natural is walled off

- make sure to keep your base safely turreted to prevent muta harass from doing any significant dmg, some proper turret-ing will go a long way in saving you grief ( you will have the minerals to be able to do so)
refer to turret guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047

- always scout out the zerg tech and produce the right units accordingly

- have a turret at the front of your natural and you wall offs, any sneaky burrow roach or infestor play could have a very heavy impact on your army or economy.

- always remember to turret up your 3rd and your expansions, i forget to, sometimes and take some heavy SCV deaths

- keep on top of your mech upgrades, getting + 3 weapons is always top priority over armor upgrades. You can get armor upgrades to make your mech army super beefy but i don't usually find the need to

- make sure to always expand from your 3rd onwards with planetaries and have your 3rd OC kept in your main base as a back up incase your 3rd gets baneling busted or destroyed one way or another.

- if you have a lot of minerals in bank make at least 2extra CCs (you will hardly ever need more than 5 CCs in a game)

- make sure to get your marine upgrades (stim,shields) as well as weapon upgrades as soon as turret range is done. BUT dont do so if it hinders your mech production / upgrades in anyway.

- stay active with your helions, do active scouting for hidden bases, clear creep and roast drones at every cost efficient opportunity you see

- you can send about 10-12 helions to an expansion to roast drones, this may sometimes distract the entire zerg army and make it easier for you to move out

- always have at least 4-6 helions with your main army in case of any heavy ling play, these will take care of the lings leaving your thors and tanks to destroy other important things

- never get caught unsieged when moving out

- stay on top of your scouting, scan for important structures like ultralisk caverns or greater spire.

-never use all your OC energy on mules, a nice rule to follow is to keep at least 150 energy in total, or 50 energy on each orbital for scans or supply drops

- if you do pull off a double bunker at the ramp, never over commit to it, remember its just pressure play.



Extra Tips
+ Show Spoiler +

- if you see some heavy broodlord - infestor play, make sure to start making more vikings, get 2 more starports with reactors up.

micro is key here, continue to use your vikings to snipe the broodlords. Split them up into small grps to minimize the effectiveness of fungal/fested terrans.

while your vikings distract the infestors, you can position your tanks into a more favorable position and use the vikings to bait the infestors to get splattered

- do the same thing if you see heavy corruptor broodlord play, 2 more starports and drop more vikings, send you ground army away from the broodlords and take out some extra bases. if you lose a lot of your mech army like the thors etc, replenish with mass marines, tanks and vikings.

- if you do transition over to marines after you lose all your thors, up against infestor play, split your marines into small grps, stim and send them forward to sniper infestors and minimize fungal effectiveness.


Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
here are some replays of me using this build on the ladder

Repaly 1
+ Show Spoiler +

vs a diamond zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?cx11cwu44jslzde

- my initial harass does little but sufficient dmg to allow me to drop my 3rd OC early
- the zerg goes for heavy muta ling play
- around 21:50 mark, i push out with a lot of helions, 3thors and 5 vikings, only to get every but my helions destroyed by the muta ball (never over value the dmg of thors against mutas magic box)
- he switches to roach/festor play but my push is barelling over everything, the overwhelming power of the siege tanks + thors decimate everything
- the roach counter does little effect as it is greeted by a PF and +3 marines with tanks
- by the time ultras are in play, they are made irrelevant


Replay 2
+ Show Spoiler +

vs a master zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?mz6p2114gqr81jh

-around the 14:15 mark, i spot the spire too late and he does kill some of my depots
- around 17:40 he attempts to harass my base with mutas, but with proper turret defense he loses 4 mutas and takes heavy dmg on them while effectively causing no dmg
- he tries to turn the game around by getting broodlords but vikings are already ready
- at 27:50, the sheer power of unsieged tanks + thors is displayed as i just barrel through his roach army


Replay 3
+ Show Spoiler +

vs high diamond zerg with some weird bad manner

http://www.mediafire.com/?1czbhaheyy6144c

- at the start i scout his base with and notice his overlords in a bad position, i immediately take opportunity of this and wall of his ramp doing heavy economical dmg
- he later sends his a ball of roaches with no effect as siege tanks are ready and prepared
-at 20:20 mark, he sends a big ball of roach which takes fire from my PF, my tanks an a thor, displayed the sheer power and cost effectiveness of tanks against roaches
- he gets slowly starved out on gas and i roll through everything


Replay 4
+ Show Spoiler +
vs GrandMaster Zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?ltm52sed9cpdocm

- his ramp is extremely vulnerable and i take advantage of it
- he takes very high economic dmg because of this and I'm able to get my 3 OCs up
- finally i roll over him with a superior army


Replay 5
+ Show Spoiler +

vs high masters Zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?crk2451w1o588x1

- i dont manage to get much pressure dont, but i see an opportunity to get in his base with my helions and roast a few drones
- around the 15:00 mark, i lose 2 tech labs due to lack of turret defense, which is quickly rectified.
-19:10 mark, he sends 44 roaches to my base, i wall of just in time and the trade is in my favor
- the rest is history



Extra replays
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.mediafire.com/?63t3jg3ri03bjwp

http://www.mediafire.com/?co5j88t79fz9tbe

http://www.mediafire.com/?hz132pg96dmepbc



Final Thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

I believe that this build is extremely powerful when you keep on top of you macro upgrades and proper scouting.


I never need more than 60SCVs
Watching the replays, you can see that my income is always around 1.2k and shoots up to 2k at some points

I also believe that the end game bio transition is a a good counter for the dreaded broodlord into ultra combo that was often seen ripping through many terrans

Foresight and preparation is key in this build. Preparation for harassment and the foresight for marine transition or quick army replenishment will help turn the tide for you

Finally, the comparison for units lost is always way higher for zerg compared to myself. The cost effectiveness of the mech army is just too devastating.
let me know what you think of this build after trying it out and discuss


P.S. i might have missed some stuff out since this took me about 6 hours to right (proper preparation and what not) but if i spot anything in the discussions or questions that i might have missed ill be sure to give my input and add it to the guide

edit:

people are missing some important points in the guide so I'll try to address it here:

- the reason I go for marines in the end game is because they are an extremely mobile and powerful unit, and towards the end game, when i lose maybe 50 supply of my army, i can easily replace it as well as very quickly.

- in addition to the above point, people have the misconception that by the end game I will have marines ONLY. let me say that no this not the case at all. I state that in the end, you will be producing marines and siege tanks instead of thors to replenish your army.



- some state that the zergs in my replays do not know how to engage a mech army, so i pose the question:


how does a zerg engage a + 3 weapons mech army with 15-20 tanks 4 thors 10-12 BFH and 6-7 vikings?

the siege tanks in siege mode do 65 dmg to armored, so roaches get obliterated not matter how many you get, the only way you can destroy this is by possibly burrow and sneaking up to them, and that is still a tough feat to do when u do a slow push with turrets
- some people are under the misconception that by getting marine upgrades as I go mech is a total waste of resources.

Let me point out that with this build, you will never be low on resources unless you have all your units Q-ed up or if you have 20 SCVs on 3 base. I can upgrade marine dmg and armor and much more and still have an abundance in resources to produce units to optimal effect

- one particular person mentions how its ridiculous to have 3k minerals banked. let me re-emphasize why this is even possible.

as a heavy mech terran, most trade offs against a ground army zerg will be in your favor, and by this i mean that the zerg will lose much more than you do. the cost effectiveness of a mech army with fast weapon upgrades will destroy any ground army you see.

because that is the case, i will hardly need to replenish my army most of the time compared to the zerg, which allows me a ridiculous bank.

some examples of how cost efficient the mech army is compared to a zerg, in some of the replays, my resources in units lost compared to zerg is about 10k against 30-40k in my favor.

nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 09:46 GMT
#2
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 09:48:15
October 21 2011 09:47 GMT
#3
Really Nice Guide and a very good Strategy. You made use of every Strengh Terran have.

- A lot´s of Orbitals for mass MULES
- Mech in Midgame for good trades
- The Switch to mass marines to use the mass Minerals as effectivly as you can

I really like it and maybe i will use it sometimes.

Mass Marines with +3 Attack are way more cost effective as Ultras are. They may kill a lot of them, but Marines only cost you Minerals while Ultras costs a lot of gas.

What is your winrate with this build and to what kinds of unit compositions do you loose?
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 10:04:30
October 21 2011 09:57 GMT
#4
The replays will show you nearly every possible compoaition I've played against

I have a pretty high win rate maybe 90% against zerg with this build

The only reason u will lose with this build is if you slip up on something important like forgetting vikings or getting caught unsieged..

So far I've only lost 1 game and it was to a standard roach push which decimated my starting tank count because I didn't wall my natural in time ob antiga
And then he swapped into mass muta ling while I tried to get the tank count up and forgot thor
Not to mention I had juat woken up and it was my first game of the day

And yes marines with +3 will tear through ultras..and they replenish twice as fast and 20 times as many
SirMilford
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1269 Posts
October 21 2011 10:07 GMT
#5
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????

It is insanely easy to beat a couple of ultralisks with the huge amount of marines. Stim away and stutterstep and they melt, Ultralisks are usually used to tank shots of tanks etc so they can clear the way for the lings/banes/roaches. They are not for cleaning up units
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9391 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 10:14:27
October 21 2011 10:13 GMT
#6
1) Your playing in SEA region (as most people mentions whether they are masters/diamond in korea, this fact seems relevant).
2) Your diamond.
3) One of the players you called high masters is diamond as well. Haven't checked for other players.

When that is said. I genereally like the idea of doing a very quick 3 command center build. Persoanlly i am trying to figure out a build that works with mech, and while yours isn't as fast as the factory reactor double expand this is pretty decent.

Kind of disagree with mid/late game though.

1) The purpose of gettign a 3rd quick is not just to get a lot of mules, but also to take it relatively quickly. On the tal darim game I saw you camped way too long on 2 bases.
2) If you aren't planning on taking a very fast 3rd and 4th getting lots of hellions early game is much much better, as it allows you to constantly put pressure on the zerg and kill a shitton of drones. If you just sit on 2 bases (3oc) the zerg can take 80 drones and 5 bases way to fast while teching to hive.
3) No reason really to get marines late game. Late game you shoould have enough gas to go heavy tank/thor. If your plan is all along to go marine/mech you are better of opening double reactor hellion double expand into marine/tank, and adding lots of factory when you have satured your 3 bases. Late late game you should always try to get a shitton of ghosts vs hivetech + infestors unit. They can substitute some of your thors/marines.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9391 Posts
October 21 2011 10:15 GMT
#7
On October 21 2011 19:07 SirMilford wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????

It is insanely easy to beat a couple of ultralisks with the huge amount of marines. Stim away and stutterstep and they melt, Ultralisks are usually used to tank shots of tanks etc so they can clear the way for the lings/banes/roaches. They are not for cleaning up units


Wrong. YOu cant win in a direct confrontation with mariens against ultra/infestor. You only win if you can abuse the map in some way.
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 10:22 GMT
#8
what zerg on earth go ultralisk with out infrestor ? -_-
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 21 2011 10:37 GMT
#9
@hlider Ah well I don't rmb the rankings of all the players I play against and I don't invest as much time as you to argue for the sake of it

That being said logick is the current account I ptactice new builds on while I play on my othwr account Pesi

As for taking a late third.. I do so to be safe and just because I can.. I assume that you watched most of the replays so you should see that by the time I take a 4th the game is pretty much ending

As for the marine play its for me to replenish my army supply quickly and strongly compared to making 7 facts

But I guess u overlooked that point when u just look for stuff to disagree qith for the sake of it

Well you can play your style and ill play mine.. Just thought I'd share
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 12:19:29
October 21 2011 11:42 GMT
#10
Hate to be that guy, but looking at all 3 replays:
1st you get 6pooled and hold it and are far far far ahead
2nd you don't even open this build, get far behind, but your opponent is incredibly bad and just looses due to stupidity really. He has like 8 bls and like 6 infestors(with very high energy) and you had 4-5 unmicroed vikings, somehow the vikings are able to kill the bls, I just dont... That should've been game, loosing the 3rd and your army, esp. since you didn't really have the production to transition to bio. Heck I'm pretty sure any zerg can tell you how well it goes getting your roaches funneled through a small choke(in this case shakuras's Xelnaga tower choke) against tanks + PF.
3rd well you are able to 2 bunker him, not much to say more like the first replay.

I'm not really convinced that this build actually works, since you need to throw so much money into production buildings, get behind on upgrades and you get the downsize of mech(the immobility, so the zerg takes the rest of the map) while you don't really get the advantage of it(the insane cost efficiency), since you are throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades, making your mech army smaller and therefor easier to crush.
I mean I won't rule it out, but in theory this is very bad and in practice I don't feel you've proven that it works.

Edit: Ohh only looked at the extra replays, gonna look at the rest now.

Edit#2: Well in these replays you never really win because of any transition, heck if most games you win because some people clearly don't know how to fight mech and/or because you get a double bunker down. It amazes me tbh that a GM player doesn't send a drone to follow the scv. Also your opponents have a really hard time upgrading, it just amazes me. To me, bio mech probably would've been better, because 3-3 rines against 1-0 or 0-1 zerg units is just lol.
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 16:33:31
October 21 2011 16:32 GMT
#11
On October 21 2011 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:


Edit#2: Well in these replays you never really win because of any transition, heck if most games you win because some people clearly don't know how to fight mech and/or because you get a double bunker down. It amazes me tbh that a GM player doesn't send a drone to follow the scv. Also your opponents have a really hard time upgrading, it just amazes me. To me, bio mech probably would've been better, because 3-3 rines against 1-0 or 0-1 zerg units is just lol.


you are totally missing the point of what i stated in the guide and that is the amount of minerals you have banked up gives you the OPTION to go bio quickly if you lose your army

and i do show how the transition plays out in at least 2 replays

On October 21 2011 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:
I'm not really convinced that this build actually works, since you need to throw so much money into production buildings, get behind on upgrades and you get the downsize of mech(the immobility, so the zerg takes the rest of the map) while you don't really get the advantage of it(the insane cost efficiency), since you are throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades, making your mech army smaller and therefor easier to crush.
I mean I won't rule it out, but in theory this is very bad and in practice I don't feel you've proven that it works.


im not convinced that you actually watched the replays and looked at the stats carefully, if you check the units lost tab for most of them, the zergs have either double or more resources lost in units compared and that is the cost efficiency I'm talking about

and I'm not sure what you mean by "throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades making your mech army smaller and there for easier to crush" when i have up to 2k minerals banked and a near maxed army

one of the key points i forgot to point out is the fact that this build allows you to trade so cost efficiently that you can be behind on 3 bases and behind the zerg most of the time and still crush them

nearly all my games I'm sitting on at MOST 3 bases and its still possible to just crush through the zerg force because most of the time my minerals are banked up and i don't need to spend so much because I'm trading at cost efficient levels


as for roaches running into siege tanks, i believe the only way to break +3 weapon tanks + thors + helions is to make brood lords because any ground unit that attempts to do so will be obliterated, even ultralisks

and as for the shakuras game how the vikings killed all the BLs when there were festors with apparently high energy, i guess you turned a blind eye to the point where he started to drop fested terrans and lost all that energy

also, 6 rax with reactors + 1 techlab rax = 13 marines every 30 seconds, i think thats enough production for transition unless I've mistaken
but apparently under your second edit seems to insinuate that every player I've played against is a scrub and hence insinuates that nearly every zerg in the SEA server is a scrub

i guess i'm just a scrub who happened to play against worse players all the time, just my luck right?

haters gonna hate

edit: haters gotta hate right?

nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 18:21 GMT
#12
The transition doesn't make sense, all the replays you didn't won becuase the transition but you crush the enermy with you mech ,then you switch to marine and said yeah i win coz the fucking marine right ? ,who need a marines with 0/0 and start upgrade in the late game ?

yeah That GM zerg is bad at zvt i beat him every times we fight,others zerg is bad that's all.they didn't scout at all , they didn't know how to deal with mech army, They did'nt send a drone to follow scv, they didn't take the advantage that you camping with 1st base so long (10-14 minute for 1st expo that lol) they just camping making units instead of drone/ 3rd,4th expo. etc...

"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
DarkCore
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany4194 Posts
October 21 2011 19:07 GMT
#13
You never really describe when you get the third OC. You just say it depends on what pressure you do, and that's it. I looked at this build because I'm curious when/how you get it. Also, when do you get the starport? Do you always have it around, or make it at a specific time?

People have been complaining about your replays.If you've been winning so many games with this build, then the Zerg players you play must be getting better and better. Haven't you had any problems yet? Give replays of you losing games.
Fixed a bug where LeBlanc could lose
saaaa
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany419 Posts
October 21 2011 19:30 GMT
#14
i read all comments on this thread...

i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like

- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style

BUT..

i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking

- you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
- with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
- you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me


In conclusion:

In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.

Maybe we can discuss this as well but please be objectiv thats way more effectiv than the style "haters gonna hate" etc.



nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 19:41:14
October 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#15
On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
i read all comments on this thread...

i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like

- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style

BUT..

i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking

- you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
- with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
- you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me


In conclusion:

In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.

Maybe we can discuss this as well but please be objectiv thats way more effectiv than the style "haters gonna hate" etc.





i see Major opening with reactor hellion then 2 fact making hellion & tank w/ some marines then push @ ~10 then transition to MMT that work pretty well.
you can find the replay @ Evil Geniuses Master's Cup Series V week 4 Sixjax Major vs M+Lalush game 3
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
saaaa
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany419 Posts
October 21 2011 19:41 GMT
#16
yes i also think that the mech+bio style is really really strong...

i don't test it til now but i imagine that this would work pretty well:

-reactor hellion FE maybe with bunker or natural block
-2 fac with 1-2 Baracks to produce marines
- attack with normal hellions and maybe 4 tanks and 20+ Marines and maybe 1-2 medivac
- after that transition into TMM

maybe works but should you build more than the initinal 4 hellions or just keep them and integrate them into your "timing push" with maybe stim, siegemode and mediVacs?

I think this style is way harder for the zerg and more powerful than your mech into bio, which you explained in your first posts
Snusdosa
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden112 Posts
October 21 2011 20:13 GMT
#17
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
October 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#18
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl

In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 20:27 GMT
#19
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl


Did you see GSL terran counter Ultralisk with marines or Maruader ?
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
October 21 2011 20:33 GMT
#20
A question:
Since the sickest, most insane, late game Terran army pretty much has to include ghosts as the counter to tier 3 and infestors, why aren't you including them? Not enough gas off 3 bases? Some other reason?

The composition and build looks really solid, I just wonder about the noticeable lack of ghosts - the only thing that imho can combat late late game 5 base zerg.

I am a zerg player mid masters EU, so just asking why?
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 36m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 99
ProTech87
JuggernautJason73
CosmosSc2 56
NeuroSwarm 25
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 514
NaDa 34
Dota 2
capcasts230
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K755
flusha279
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe62
PPMD34
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu441
Other Games
summit1g6158
Grubby2932
shahzam901
ViBE192
Pyrionflax182
C9.Mang0144
ZombieGrub45
Maynarde44
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV18
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 41
• musti20045 39
• davetesta12
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 6
• iopq 5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22673
League of Legends
• TFBlade658
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie1187
• Shiphtur209
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
1h 36m
Afreeca Starleague
11h 36m
hero vs Alone
Royal vs Barracks
Replay Cast
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 11h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 12h
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
2 days
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
[ Show More ]
SC Evo League
3 days
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
3 days
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
SC Evo League
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 3
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
Acropolis #4 - TS1
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.