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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
the stats you provided are nice but you also forget that thors move INCREDIBLY slow and they have a super slow attack speed as well in the end game if a zerg is running out of gas and just mass produces lings, you thors will be utterly useless whereas compared to marines u can rolled through just about anything with + 3 as well as spread them out quickly over the map to prevent zerg from getting up any more expansions | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
Then you say you get 3/3 marines to counter ultras? Wat? Your BO can be more optimized too. only 2 marines out of rax then reactor while factory building make CC, make SD, make 4 helions while leaving 1 SCV in gas after fact + reactor made and add tech lab to rax add another CC after 4 helions I do that then transition to bio tank while using helions to stop creep spread and take map control. BTW in your production section, 3 OCs does not mean you can have 5-6 mules at a time. It means that if you have bad macro, you'll have 5-6 mules at a time. Constant drops should mean 3 mules. | ||
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
On October 23 2011 09:50 The.Doctor wrote: You say you like mech because you only have to get mech upgrades... Then you say you get 3/3 marines to counter ultras? Wat? Your BO can be more optimized too. only 2 marines out of rax then reactor while factory building make CC, make SD, make 4 helions while leaving 1 SCV in gas after fact + reactor made and add tech lab to rax add another CC after 4 helions I do that then transition to bio tank while using helions to stop creep spread and take map control. BTW in your production section, 3 OCs does not mean you can have 5-6 mules at a time. It means that if you have bad macro, you'll have 5-6 mules at a time. Constant drops should mean 3 mules. as mentioned, alot of you are nit picking at little sections while not looking at the structure of the guide as a whole i also point out that you do not want to use all your OC energy on mules, but to keep at least some energy for scans and yes i state do i prefer mech normally the entire game, but in the course of losing a large portion of my army OR all my thors (no anti air) i can easily remax with 3/3 marines because i already have an abundance of resources to upgrade and increase my the amount of production structures that does not hinder the production of my mech army and by the time zerg get ultras, he wont have enough to sustain building more than 5 (also already stated) a lot of you have to look at the guide as whole and put all the information together, instead of reading 1 section and going: "oh this is totally fail" and then u reach the next section and, "oh this doesnt make sense at all" | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
Mineral dump goes like this: Hardcore helion harass is large portion of where your mins go in early game CCs and turrets mid to late game while not getting too many scvs. Why not making too many SCVs? Larger standing army and more CCs and PFs. If you've spent that many minerals on rax and gas on upgrades, something is going to be lacking, either you have too many scvs and too small of a standing army (maybe the reason why you're having to remax on marines?), less tanks, less CCs etc. | ||
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cristo1122
Australia505 Posts
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On October 23 2011 10:16 Logick wrote: as mentioned, alot of you are nit picking at little sections while not looking at the structure of the guide as a whole i also point out that you do not want to use all your OC energy on mules, but to keep at least some energy for scans and yes i state do i prefer mech normally the entire game, but in the course of losing a large portion of my army OR all my thors (no anti air) i can easily remax with 3/3 marines because i already have an abundance of resources to upgrade and increase my the amount of production structures that does not hinder the production of my mech army and by the time zerg get ultras, he wont have enough to sustain building more than 5 (also already stated) a lot of you have to look at the guide as whole and put all the information together, instead of reading 1 section and going: "oh this is totally fail" and then u reach the next section and, "oh this doesnt make sense at all" Well that's why you optimize, so people who only want to read one part can... spend their time optimally. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
On October 23 2011 12:02 The.Doctor wrote: But you shouldn't have a surplus of minerals when going mech, if you're playing it right. Mineral dump goes like this: Hardcore helion harass is large portion of where your mins go in early game CCs and turrets mid to late game while not getting too many scvs. Why not making too many SCVs? Larger standing army and more CCs and PFs. If you've spent that many minerals on rax and gas on upgrades, something is going to be lacking, either you have too many scvs and too small of a standing army (maybe the reason why you're having to remax on marines?), less tanks, less CCs etc. 60 SCVs + 3 orbitals is enough to cover the amount of mining i need to maintain my mech army and more and no at the end of the day i dont find that I'm lacking in anything, i can still build 2 marines per rax with another 2 Q-ed up for 8-10 more rax and i'm still fine pls read the parts about cost efficiency and banking On October 23 2011 15:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Well that's why you optimize, so people who only want to read one part can... spend their time optimally. sorry i dont get this.. so basically i should just make the guide mech TvZ or marine tank TvZ? that totally doesnt make any sense, the problem is not that the guide isnt optimized, its that people just dont know how to read and absorb the information or they just cant comprehend the information, as is the case for the fellow below On October 23 2011 16:17 oOOoOphidian wrote: If your whole goal is to turtle and get to an end game with marine/medivac, why not just start off with mass marine/medivac and fast upgrades? no one ever said that the goal was to turtle with mech and then switch to marine/medi its clearly stated like at least 5-6 times through out the whole thread that the point upgrading bio and getting so many rax is to allow you the OPTION of re-maxing as fast as possible with a power and mobile army in the case IF you lose a large chunk of your army and that i can do all this because my army trades more efficiently and i can build and upgrade the bio units in preparation for the transition without affecting my ongoing mech production | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:54 Logick wrote: 60 SCVs + 3 orbitals is enough to cover the amount of mining i need to maintain my mech army and more and no at the end of the day i dont find that I'm lacking in anything, i can still build 2 marines per rax with another 2 Q-ed up for 8-10 more rax and i'm still fine pls read the parts about cost efficiency and banking sorry i dont get this.. so basically i should just make the guide mech TvZ or marine tank TvZ? that totally doesnt make any sense, the problem is not that the guide isnt optimized, its that people just dont know how to read and absorb the information or they just cant comprehend the information, as is the case for the fellow below no one ever said that the goal was to turtle with mech and then switch to marine/medi its clearly stated like at least 5-6 times through out the whole thread that the point upgrading bio and getting so many rax is to allow you the OPTION of re-maxing as fast as possible with a power and mobile army in the case IF you lose a large chunk of your army and that i can do all this because my army trades more efficiently and i can build and upgrade the bio units in preparation for the transition without affecting my ongoing mech production Nevermind sorry, I misread :< Anyways I didn't see your response to my older post til now. Thors can be beaten by lings easily, but that's why you have hellions [and tanks if you want them]. I don't see why you should waste 900/900 resources or so to get stim, combat shield, and +3/+3 for bio when you already have the units it takes to deal with Zerg. | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
[G] TvZ 3OC Mech into bio end game because you are playing a very heavy mech army, generally most engage are going to be extremely cost efficient for you (if you kept up with the upgrades) however in the case you do lose a large chunk of your army, you want to be able to replenish it ASAP to continue your assault on the enemy base i will explain how i achieve such quick replenishment (as seen in the introduction pictures) Because you have such a high economy from 3OCs off the bat, and because you will be turtling a lot, you are going to have banked up a lot of minerals. by a lot, i mean up to 3000 or more. making more than 5 orbitals would be useless, so instead i throw down 6-8 rax with reactors Since you also have 3-4 factories with tech labs, just pump out siege tanks from them, you will have enough anti air with marines and vikings (for brood lords) so you wont need any thors from here on out This is how replenish my supply extremely quickly and often times this will win you the game ***Some extremely important things to note: - after you research turret range, immediately begin researching + 1 weapons for your marines, drop another ebay and start researching + 1 armor if you want your marines to be even more overpowered. - make sure to get a rax with a tech lab and research stim + shields as well. - all this is done even as you're meching, so even if you have 1 rax, you are preparing for the transition to bio as a safety measure, and when you do transition over, you will have 3/3 or at least + 3 weapons marines and you will be unstoppable it not like optional becuase it take time to prepare for upgrade you know ? that mean if we follow by your guide we need to upgrade +1attck/+1deffend while we turtle with mech army (@10 min if i correct). that why people don't understand you point,we are not the New type ,who know the future. how you know that we gonna lose a big army or not , when we need bio ? you tell nothing but optional in high level if zerg know you going mech w/ turtle mode (you can't waste too much gas into tank/thor while upgrade for marines,you also not harass anything with your hellion)so they can take advantage by get 3,4,5 bases (surely they have more economy than you) ,roach drop,nydus,tech etc. so that the problem with this build. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
As i said, the only weakness i can see would some sort of nydus play. But that's not very common and with good awareness and scouting ever that shouldn't be an issue | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Most terrans in masters counter the muta magicboxing with offensive turret placement and more importantly getting +mech weapon upgrades at an insane rate (ie going only weapons and no armor until 3-0). What this does is that the mutas simply take too much damage before they get in becuase the zerg can't match his mutas armor to those upgrades with all the other stuff he needs to spend gas on. Fast 3-0 is what killed mutas vs mech completely asnd you now see mostly roach/ling counter or alternatively roach/bane drops on tanks until they can get that huge broodlord army out. Also if you play out your build as safely as you say in this guide you will allow the zerg to get 3 bases of full drones and you will yourself have a delayed natural. Your build relies heavily on actually killing 15+ drones to even able to compete with the zerg economically. Vs mech econ can really spiral out of control if no harass is done and you can just take the entire map which the terran can do nothing about. Additionally any competent zerg knows that you either look to 2 base timing him with the mech or to take a third behind a small ammmount of units. Both those options makes zergs decision making easy cause he can just go for a huge ammount of units to stop the push/expand. And a mech terran on 2 base is extremely easy to take on once the zerg has allready crushed an army. Alternatively if you go for the third and zerg delays it properly he can himself go up to 4-5 bases safely and then just get everything at the same time. I can see this working on abusive maps like xel'naga caverns or shattered close pos or any of the ridiculous beta style maps that I as a zerg have vetoed but not on a map when you have time to get your defense up. Most zergs play a very solid anti helion defense now that also puts pressure back on expanding terrans (with inbase macro hatch etc). Either they go for the fast roach warren after the second queen and then they will have roaches out in time for the 4 first helions which they then use to delay your natural. While at the same time defending any all in counterpokes you try with helions with queens+spine+lings or they go for the extra queen that shuts down helion harass completely and guarantees a good midgame creep spread aswell as an early good drone count. Then they can go for the double expand have be on 5 hatches 3 queens in time for the earliest time you can push effectively. The sheer unit production capabilities of zergs that play that style is enough to trounce any mech play that expands too slowly. You really are forced to deal huge damage with the helions or to take very fast expansions behind few units and hope that you can position / harass well enough that the zerg wont attack you in time. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
What often happens when you go mech is that sooner or later your army will be wiped out, you will have lots of minerals, not enough gas and too little time to rebuild your army before they counter attack and wipe out your production facilities. Going mass marines while re-making your mech army will buy you time and is an excellent way of spending the excess minerals that you typically build up late game. | ||
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Blackknight232
United States169 Posts
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Raiju
Australia235 Posts
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