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[G] TvZ 3OC Mech into bio end game

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 00:49:11
October 21 2011 09:22 GMT
#1
Hi people, I'm a mid-masters terran bringing to you a guide to what I believe is a very strong build that I have currently experimented and tested many times against zergs, and I've decided to share it.


Introduction of the build
+ Show Spoiler +

this build focuses on opening with 3 orbitals very early which will send your economy sky rocketing and at the same time allows you to turtle and amass a very strong mecharmy before you push out and totally annihilate the zerg player.

You will go from this:
[image loading]

To this:
[image loading]

And in the next minute or so, this:
[image loading]


this is absolutely NOT for someone who wants to go marine tank so do not attempt at all to get 3 orbitals if you plan to go marine tank




The Units
+ Show Spoiler +

Your army will comprise of very heavy mech from start and possibly end game. Why I say possibly end game, because how you use your army, as well as how the zerg player will attack you will possibly lead to you having a bio army in the end game. I will touch on this later in the guide

Units that you will use:
Helions (Blue Flame of course)
Siege Tanks
Thors
Vikings
*Marines
*Medivacs

*these units come into play if your mech army gets obliterated


Why mech
+ Show Spoiler +
I tend to favor mech more because it gives me some form of control over the game
- helions give me early scouting and harassment potential
- thors will help reduce the effectiveness of muta harass, couple with vikings and turrets render mutas inert
- the power of siege tanks are just so overwhelming there isnt a reason why not to go mech

-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons

- marines although they do high dmg, do not entirely prevent mutas from doing harassment dmg. also, marines are extremely weak to ling bane


The Opener
+ Show Spoiler +

this will be your standard reactor helion expand

10 Depot
12 rax
13 refinery
factory at 100 gas
*build 3-4 marines depending on the pressure youre applying (see pressure section)
add a reactor to your barracks
swap factor to reactor
drop a CC after the first 4 helions
drop a second factory
tech lab on rax
swap factory to tech lab
research blue flame or siege mode depending on scouting information (I'll get back to this later)
3rd OC goes down
make an armory
+1 vehicle weapons when armory is done


How and when to get your 3rd OC
+ Show Spoiler +

Here's the tricky part, how do you get the third OC without falling to roach pressure or baneling busts?

And how soon do you get it?

The keyword is pressure.


The Pressure

Pressuring the zerg to make extra lings or spinecrawlers will definitely help boost your confidence in pulling off a third OC

any economic dmg you do in the form of extra lings, or a drone or two, is more than enough to help you get started

Slight Pressure
+ Show Spoiler +
This is very light pressure that will force a few extra lings and maybe delay mining time for a few drones
if the zerg overreacts and makes a spine or possibly sends all his drones to attack, the dmg has been done

What you do:
After your refinery drops down @13, send your next SCV thats in production out to scout

now once your barracks is done, build a marine ASAP and rally it to where the zerg base is, or where it might be

depending on the map size you may either find the zerg base before or after the hatchery is done building (assuming they 14hatch before pool [which generally they do])

if your SCV reaches the base while the hatchery is half way done, you can drop a bunker like this:
[image loading]

usually the zerg will send out 4 drones or more the second they see this to take out that SCV, however due to the placement of the bunker, sometimes your SCV might move into a position where he cant get hit at all like so: (unfortunately this is a game with a friend just to show the bunker placement so thats why theres no reaction)
[image loading]

and finally if the bunker completes, get your marine in and leave your SCV behind the bunker to repair like so
[image loading]

this will end up forcing a lot of lings and maybe some spines, if they send their lings with the queen, focus fire down the lings which will in turn cause them to make a few more for safe measure after the bunker is removed

before the bunker is destroyed, get your marines out and salvage it, making the pressure even more cost effective for you

*even if the bunker doesnt complete, you would cost the drones a lot of mining time and maybe forced a few units, and in that aspect, the dmg has been done*

** in some cases, a good player will use his drones and his lings to intercept the approaching marine and kill it, so even if your bunker completes, you wont be able to put anything inside. this is fine because you would have still forced the drones to lose mining time as they intercept your marine(s)**


if your SCV reaches the base when the hatchery is complete, you can still do minor pressure like so:
[image loading]

effectively it wouldn't a very heavy economic impact, but you would have done some dmg, like drones losing mining time and a couple of extra lings:
[image loading]

and any dmg done is good



Heavy Pressure
+ Show Spoiler +

This can may seem a bit cheesy but really if your opponent has been careless with his overlord placement or does not have a drone patrolling his ramp, you are gonna inflict some very heavy dmg to his economy which will set him back very far.

basically the same thing applies, you send the SCV scout out to look for his base, but you also check for his overlord placement by the natural

if its placed in a bad spot, you can pull off a double bunker at the ramp

example being:

[image loading]


i noticed his overlord in a bad spot which makes him unable to see the first bunker
[image loading]

i drop down my second bunker
[image loading]

by the time he reacts my first bunker is complete and my first marine is on approach
[image loading]

this is what I've forced
[image loading]

and the amount of dmg ive done, one queen goes down as well as few lings and a spine
[image loading]

but the major dmg has been done

now because I know the amount of pressure I've done has been sufficient I can move on to this safely without worry of much pressure
[image loading]



Following your initial pressure, you can send in your helions (reactor factory opening) to do some scouting, catch a few drones if you're lucky, stop creep spreading(because you have 3 orbitals you can scan at least 2-3 times if you want), and kill lings


Very important things to note
+ Show Spoiler +

As you send your first scouting SCV into his base, check his for his gas:
- does he have 3 drones on gas?
depending on the amount of dmg you did, you can expect a baneling bust (has yet to happen) or fast roaches (happens most of the time)
- 1 drone on gas?
he maybe make a few roaches and send them to your base
- no drones on gas?
you dont have to worry about roaches or banes for awhile
- has an overlord scouted your base? did it catch sight of the 3rd OC?
- you drop a scan (because you have so much energy from 3OCs) and spot a roach warren building or being built


Why its important:
- If the overlord has scouted the 3rd OC very early, there is a strong chance that he might hit a timing with some roaches because he knows that all you will have are BFH, which do nothing to helions

- If you see him continue collecting gas with 3 drones, either:
1. expect a baneling bust (which should be no problem because they usually follow with lings that get roasted by BFH
2. he sends about 10-12 roaches which will end the game if you made no siege tanks or do no not have siege mode, if you made a thor it can be helpful but if the roaches break past you wall and get into the base, expect the game to end or heavy dmg to your economy.

- If you scan and spotted the roach warren, you'd better have at least 2 siege tanks with siege mode ready or the game WILL end, I guarantee it

*what you get from your tech lab-ed factory is entirely based on what you have scouted



How to proceed from here
+ Show Spoiler +

You have 3 OCs now, 2 factories, and an armory. What do you do?

- Drop 1 more factory
- Get an engineering bay
- Keep producing SCVs from each OC until you're 100% sure its safe to move to your natural*

*You do this by scouting with your helions and scanning
if you see him making a lot of roaches, you might not want to move out until you have 3-4 siege tanks maybe a thor, and a bunch of helions to buffer.

once you've safely expanded to your natural, you need to start walling off different sections so that zerg has:
1. one point of entry to you natural
2. to run into your wall and take siege first



Walling off
+ Show Spoiler +

This is extremely important. Not only do you need to wall off your main, you have to wall off your natural as well, because a if a big clump or roaches come, even with 3 tanks you're going to get rolled over as they right up in the face of your tanks.

However, if you've walled it off, even if the roaches do approach, they have to get through the wall, and while doing so take so much tank dmg that they will either:
- all be wiped out by the time they approach your tanks
- or retreat after the first shelling


here's a few different ways you might want to wall off on different maps:

Xel'Naga Cavverns
some may know this as Tasteless' Secret Hallway, or even John's Common Knowledge Hallway, either way, wall it off to prevent ling runbys or sneaky banes blowing up your SCVs
[image loading]

Also on Xel'Naga Caverns
There are 2 entrances to your natural, its personal preference which side you wall off, personally, I wall off the one closest to my ramp so that if any attacks come they have to go around as well as engage my army before they even attempt to get into my main
this also a good preventative measure for mass ling runbys
[image loading]

Antiga Shipyard
[image loading]

Shakuras Plateau
[image loading]

Tal'Darim Altar
[image loading]




Staying Active
+ Show Spoiler +

- After you've moved over to your natural, you need to constantly produce tanks as well as 2-3 thors (to defend against mutas) drop down more factories if need ( i have 4 and very rarely 5 at the most)

- Make a starport and attach it with a reactor
this is EXTREMELY important, after your 4th factory you should have this up immediately

- keep upgrading vehicle weapons

- You have a reactor-ed factory, always make sure to make a couple of helions and move them out to do harassment, prevent creep spreading, and if you see an opportunity to roast some drones, do it

- Stay on top of your unit production.

- Make sure to be making 2-3 depots at a time (with the amount of tanks and thors you're making you HAVE to make this many, or you can always supply drop because you will have a LOT of energy)

- Scout for the third, and any hidden expansion,

- Harass the expansions with helions if you can

- Scan for what tech hes going for, infestors, etc.
- Scan for spire
if you spot the spire, research turret range and start making a couple of turrets to defend your important structures or your mineral line



refer to my turret guide here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047


Economy and Production
+ Show Spoiler +

You've expanded to your natural, and you've walled it off. Now you need to continue making either siege tanks or thors depending on what unit composition your opponent is going for. If you see heavy muta (and by heavy i mean from 20 onwards) you need to start making a more thors and less siege tanks, and a some vikings, 8 at the most

Your economy is going to be booming, with 3 OCs, you can have 5-6 mules going at a time, and even on 2 base you will see you mineral income hit around 2k per min

because of this high income, you are going to be producing units, constantly but at the same time build up a huge bank

if you have over 1000 minerals and have units producing, make another CC in preparation for your 3rd expansion, once its done, float it over and turn it into a planetary

if you have over 1600 minerals or more, you can drop 2 CCs down and keep producing units



What units to make
+ Show Spoiler +

Here is where you decide to build what to counter what the zerg player makes

- if you scan and see the infestation bit, and you've been seeing heavy roach play, make lots of tanks, have at least 3-4 thors

why:
- thors are not really effective against roaches even with mass repair, seriously do not bother making more than 4 thors. they are just here to act as a buffer and a sort of shield so that your tanks can take out the roaches and infestors,

- having too many thors may lead to them being neural-ed and thats bad

- your siege tanks will be doing so much dmg that roach armies of up to 50-60 roaches will melt away instantly, if you've kept up with your weapon upgrades which you should have, your siege tanks will do 65dmg vs armored, thats 2 hits per roach if you factor in splash dmg


-if you spot your opponent going heavy muta ling, you want to get a lot of thors, upwards to 6 and some vikings, but keep at least 6-7 siege tanks and make lots of BFH


why:
- if you opponent is muta heavy, he is going to magic box you VERY often, and even with 6 thors you will lose to 30 mutas

- thats why you have the vikings to come in, you need 8 -10 vikings at this point so that when against the mutas, you will have the better end of the trade off

- you need at least 10 BFH if you see the opponent going heavy ling to compliment his mutas, this way when they attack, your thors wont sometimes bug out and waste their slow attacks on lings, the BFH will take care of it

- the siege tanks are there in case of any heavy banelings. sometimes the zerg makes about 15 - 20 mutas, lots of lings and of upwards of 30 banelings, this will definitely roll over your army if you do not have siege tanks in siege mode target firing the banes



- if you spot the greater spire, start making vikings if you haven't already, and if your army is attacking make, sure by the time the brood lords reach your tanks that you are unsieged,

- if there is not ground army to compliment the corruptors, send your ground army to take out his bases, even though you will lose the air battle, he will lose his production and eventually, the game.



why:
- the best counter to brood lords are vikings of course, you wont need to make too many vikings but 8-10 is a nice number to make depending on how many corruptors or mutas are out

- the thors you have will help deal some extra dmg to corruptors


- if you spot the ultralisk cavern, immediately start mass producing marines as well as medivacs and siege tanks

why:
- it might just be me but i find that a lot of marines do very well against ultra's especially with + 3 upgrades
- siege tanks do surprising well against ultras with marines as well, and if the zerg makes some mass bane transition with the ultras, you wont have to worry about gosu splitting as much

**refer to a later section of this guide when we talk about the bio transition
- if you see you opponent going mass infestors, (like upwards of over 9-10), don't worry, you dont need ghosts, but you can make them if youre comfortable. just make lots of siege tanks

why:
- siege tanks will destroy infestors before they even get in range to neural, and if they try to mass fungal, they are probably going to splatter all over the place.





When and how to attack
+ Show Spoiler +

You will almost never attack until you hit around 170 supply. this is when your army reaches nearly its highest efficiency, and most tradeoffs against zerg will end up in your favor heavily

Focus heavily on turtling and inch out slightly to cover your third expansion depending on the map type.

Scout frequently to find out where his army is so that when you move out, you will never be caught off guard.

Scan for the ultralisk cavern. Generally if you spot the ultralisk cavern and following that there is a battle, you can expect ultra's very soon, if thats the case, you can collect your whole army and when you engage the ultra's you wont even need to siege, just focus fire and watch them splatter 1 by 1. Thors and tanks with + 3 weapons do an insane amount of dmg.

Scan for the greater spire, if you spot it, being made, or already made, you need to start viking production asap, if the brood lords ever reach your ground army, never siege up and never try to engage it with your ground army (mainly the thors). move far away from the brood lords and attack his base

When it gets to the late game, do not ever.. EVER go for the zergs main base. you might think, "but all his tech is in there if i destroy it he cant make units."
NO. just NO.

attack his expansions instead, slowly starve him to the point where he can't make heavy gas units like brood lords and ultras, and then end his suffering. You can usually hit and expo or 2 after engaging an army cost efficiently.

if you end up having not as good of a trade, depending on your location, you can snipe a base, take out the retreating drones ( with BFH) and then retreat and regroup



Where the bio comes in
+ Show Spoiler +

because you are playing a very heavy mech army, generally most engage are going to be extremely cost efficient for you (if you kept up with the upgrades)

however in the case you do lose a large chunk of your army, you want to be able to replenish it ASAP to continue your assault on the enemy base

i will explain how i achieve such quick replenishment (as seen in the introduction pictures)

Because you have such a high economy from 3OCs off the bat, and because you will be turtling a lot, you are going to have banked up a lot of minerals. by a lot, i mean up to 3000 or more. making more than 5 orbitals would be useless, so instead i throw down 6-8 rax with reactors

Since you also have 3-4 factories with tech labs, just pump out siege tanks from them, you will have enough anti air with marines and vikings (for brood lords) so you wont need any thors from here on out

This is how replenish my supply extremely quickly and often times this will win you the game

***Some extremely important things to note:

- after you research turret range, immediately begin researching + 1 weapons for your marines, drop another ebay and start researching + 1 armor if you want your marines to be even more overpowered.

- make sure to get a rax with a tech lab and research stim + shields as well.

- all this is done even as you're meching, so even if you have 1 rax, you are preparing for the transition to bio as a safety measure, and when you do transition over, you will have 3/3 or at least + 3 weapons marines and you will be unstoppable



Why Marines only
the amount of minerals you collect from having 3 OCs is just so insane, that mixed together with the cost efficient mech army will allow you to have such a large bank.

reactor-ed marines are can be produced very fast and with 3/3, towards the end game its like ranged zerglings with stim and medivacs healing them, you can just keep pumping them out

and once you have a ball of 40 marines, not even a roach army or ultras can stop you, all you need to do is stim and focus fire each and every one of the roaches or ultras and barrel through the rest of the game

Key things to remember
+ Show Spoiler +
- always make sure your natural is walled off

- make sure to keep your base safely turreted to prevent muta harass from doing any significant dmg, some proper turret-ing will go a long way in saving you grief ( you will have the minerals to be able to do so)
refer to turret guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047

- always scout out the zerg tech and produce the right units accordingly

- have a turret at the front of your natural and you wall offs, any sneaky burrow roach or infestor play could have a very heavy impact on your army or economy.

- always remember to turret up your 3rd and your expansions, i forget to, sometimes and take some heavy SCV deaths

- keep on top of your mech upgrades, getting + 3 weapons is always top priority over armor upgrades. You can get armor upgrades to make your mech army super beefy but i don't usually find the need to

- make sure to always expand from your 3rd onwards with planetaries and have your 3rd OC kept in your main base as a back up incase your 3rd gets baneling busted or destroyed one way or another.

- if you have a lot of minerals in bank make at least 2extra CCs (you will hardly ever need more than 5 CCs in a game)

- make sure to get your marine upgrades (stim,shields) as well as weapon upgrades as soon as turret range is done. BUT dont do so if it hinders your mech production / upgrades in anyway.

- stay active with your helions, do active scouting for hidden bases, clear creep and roast drones at every cost efficient opportunity you see

- you can send about 10-12 helions to an expansion to roast drones, this may sometimes distract the entire zerg army and make it easier for you to move out

- always have at least 4-6 helions with your main army in case of any heavy ling play, these will take care of the lings leaving your thors and tanks to destroy other important things

- never get caught unsieged when moving out

- stay on top of your scouting, scan for important structures like ultralisk caverns or greater spire.

-never use all your OC energy on mules, a nice rule to follow is to keep at least 150 energy in total, or 50 energy on each orbital for scans or supply drops

- if you do pull off a double bunker at the ramp, never over commit to it, remember its just pressure play.



Extra Tips
+ Show Spoiler +

- if you see some heavy broodlord - infestor play, make sure to start making more vikings, get 2 more starports with reactors up.

micro is key here, continue to use your vikings to snipe the broodlords. Split them up into small grps to minimize the effectiveness of fungal/fested terrans.

while your vikings distract the infestors, you can position your tanks into a more favorable position and use the vikings to bait the infestors to get splattered

- do the same thing if you see heavy corruptor broodlord play, 2 more starports and drop more vikings, send you ground army away from the broodlords and take out some extra bases. if you lose a lot of your mech army like the thors etc, replenish with mass marines, tanks and vikings.

- if you do transition over to marines after you lose all your thors, up against infestor play, split your marines into small grps, stim and send them forward to sniper infestors and minimize fungal effectiveness.


Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
here are some replays of me using this build on the ladder

Repaly 1
+ Show Spoiler +

vs a diamond zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?cx11cwu44jslzde

- my initial harass does little but sufficient dmg to allow me to drop my 3rd OC early
- the zerg goes for heavy muta ling play
- around 21:50 mark, i push out with a lot of helions, 3thors and 5 vikings, only to get every but my helions destroyed by the muta ball (never over value the dmg of thors against mutas magic box)
- he switches to roach/festor play but my push is barelling over everything, the overwhelming power of the siege tanks + thors decimate everything
- the roach counter does little effect as it is greeted by a PF and +3 marines with tanks
- by the time ultras are in play, they are made irrelevant


Replay 2
+ Show Spoiler +

vs a master zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?mz6p2114gqr81jh

-around the 14:15 mark, i spot the spire too late and he does kill some of my depots
- around 17:40 he attempts to harass my base with mutas, but with proper turret defense he loses 4 mutas and takes heavy dmg on them while effectively causing no dmg
- he tries to turn the game around by getting broodlords but vikings are already ready
- at 27:50, the sheer power of unsieged tanks + thors is displayed as i just barrel through his roach army


Replay 3
+ Show Spoiler +

vs high diamond zerg with some weird bad manner

http://www.mediafire.com/?1czbhaheyy6144c

- at the start i scout his base with and notice his overlords in a bad position, i immediately take opportunity of this and wall of his ramp doing heavy economical dmg
- he later sends his a ball of roaches with no effect as siege tanks are ready and prepared
-at 20:20 mark, he sends a big ball of roach which takes fire from my PF, my tanks an a thor, displayed the sheer power and cost effectiveness of tanks against roaches
- he gets slowly starved out on gas and i roll through everything


Replay 4
+ Show Spoiler +
vs GrandMaster Zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?ltm52sed9cpdocm

- his ramp is extremely vulnerable and i take advantage of it
- he takes very high economic dmg because of this and I'm able to get my 3 OCs up
- finally i roll over him with a superior army


Replay 5
+ Show Spoiler +

vs high masters Zerg

http://www.mediafire.com/?crk2451w1o588x1

- i dont manage to get much pressure dont, but i see an opportunity to get in his base with my helions and roast a few drones
- around the 15:00 mark, i lose 2 tech labs due to lack of turret defense, which is quickly rectified.
-19:10 mark, he sends 44 roaches to my base, i wall of just in time and the trade is in my favor
- the rest is history



Extra replays
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.mediafire.com/?63t3jg3ri03bjwp

http://www.mediafire.com/?co5j88t79fz9tbe

http://www.mediafire.com/?hz132pg96dmepbc



Final Thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +

I believe that this build is extremely powerful when you keep on top of you macro upgrades and proper scouting.


I never need more than 60SCVs
Watching the replays, you can see that my income is always around 1.2k and shoots up to 2k at some points

I also believe that the end game bio transition is a a good counter for the dreaded broodlord into ultra combo that was often seen ripping through many terrans

Foresight and preparation is key in this build. Preparation for harassment and the foresight for marine transition or quick army replenishment will help turn the tide for you

Finally, the comparison for units lost is always way higher for zerg compared to myself. The cost effectiveness of the mech army is just too devastating.
let me know what you think of this build after trying it out and discuss


P.S. i might have missed some stuff out since this took me about 6 hours to right (proper preparation and what not) but if i spot anything in the discussions or questions that i might have missed ill be sure to give my input and add it to the guide

edit:

people are missing some important points in the guide so I'll try to address it here:

- the reason I go for marines in the end game is because they are an extremely mobile and powerful unit, and towards the end game, when i lose maybe 50 supply of my army, i can easily replace it as well as very quickly.

- in addition to the above point, people have the misconception that by the end game I will have marines ONLY. let me say that no this not the case at all. I state that in the end, you will be producing marines and siege tanks instead of thors to replenish your army.



- some state that the zergs in my replays do not know how to engage a mech army, so i pose the question:


how does a zerg engage a + 3 weapons mech army with 15-20 tanks 4 thors 10-12 BFH and 6-7 vikings?

the siege tanks in siege mode do 65 dmg to armored, so roaches get obliterated not matter how many you get, the only way you can destroy this is by possibly burrow and sneaking up to them, and that is still a tough feat to do when u do a slow push with turrets
- some people are under the misconception that by getting marine upgrades as I go mech is a total waste of resources.

Let me point out that with this build, you will never be low on resources unless you have all your units Q-ed up or if you have 20 SCVs on 3 base. I can upgrade marine dmg and armor and much more and still have an abundance in resources to produce units to optimal effect

- one particular person mentions how its ridiculous to have 3k minerals banked. let me re-emphasize why this is even possible.

as a heavy mech terran, most trade offs against a ground army zerg will be in your favor, and by this i mean that the zerg will lose much more than you do. the cost effectiveness of a mech army with fast weapon upgrades will destroy any ground army you see.

because that is the case, i will hardly need to replenish my army most of the time compared to the zerg, which allows me a ridiculous bank.

some examples of how cost efficient the mech army is compared to a zerg, in some of the replays, my resources in units lost compared to zerg is about 10k against 30-40k in my favor.

nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 09:46 GMT
#2
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Sianos
Profile Joined April 2011
580 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 09:48:15
October 21 2011 09:47 GMT
#3
Really Nice Guide and a very good Strategy. You made use of every Strengh Terran have.

- A lot´s of Orbitals for mass MULES
- Mech in Midgame for good trades
- The Switch to mass marines to use the mass Minerals as effectivly as you can

I really like it and maybe i will use it sometimes.

Mass Marines with +3 Attack are way more cost effective as Ultras are. They may kill a lot of them, but Marines only cost you Minerals while Ultras costs a lot of gas.

What is your winrate with this build and to what kinds of unit compositions do you loose?
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 10:04:30
October 21 2011 09:57 GMT
#4
The replays will show you nearly every possible compoaition I've played against

I have a pretty high win rate maybe 90% against zerg with this build

The only reason u will lose with this build is if you slip up on something important like forgetting vikings or getting caught unsieged..

So far I've only lost 1 game and it was to a standard roach push which decimated my starting tank count because I didn't wall my natural in time ob antiga
And then he swapped into mass muta ling while I tried to get the tank count up and forgot thor
Not to mention I had juat woken up and it was my first game of the day

And yes marines with +3 will tear through ultras..and they replenish twice as fast and 20 times as many
SirMilford
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1269 Posts
October 21 2011 10:07 GMT
#5
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????

It is insanely easy to beat a couple of ultralisks with the huge amount of marines. Stim away and stutterstep and they melt, Ultralisks are usually used to tank shots of tanks etc so they can clear the way for the lings/banes/roaches. They are not for cleaning up units
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9391 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 10:14:27
October 21 2011 10:13 GMT
#6
1) Your playing in SEA region (as most people mentions whether they are masters/diamond in korea, this fact seems relevant).
2) Your diamond.
3) One of the players you called high masters is diamond as well. Haven't checked for other players.

When that is said. I genereally like the idea of doing a very quick 3 command center build. Persoanlly i am trying to figure out a build that works with mech, and while yours isn't as fast as the factory reactor double expand this is pretty decent.

Kind of disagree with mid/late game though.

1) The purpose of gettign a 3rd quick is not just to get a lot of mules, but also to take it relatively quickly. On the tal darim game I saw you camped way too long on 2 bases.
2) If you aren't planning on taking a very fast 3rd and 4th getting lots of hellions early game is much much better, as it allows you to constantly put pressure on the zerg and kill a shitton of drones. If you just sit on 2 bases (3oc) the zerg can take 80 drones and 5 bases way to fast while teching to hive.
3) No reason really to get marines late game. Late game you shoould have enough gas to go heavy tank/thor. If your plan is all along to go marine/mech you are better of opening double reactor hellion double expand into marine/tank, and adding lots of factory when you have satured your 3 bases. Late late game you should always try to get a shitton of ghosts vs hivetech + infestors unit. They can substitute some of your thors/marines.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9391 Posts
October 21 2011 10:15 GMT
#7
On October 21 2011 19:07 SirMilford wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????

It is insanely easy to beat a couple of ultralisks with the huge amount of marines. Stim away and stutterstep and they melt, Ultralisks are usually used to tank shots of tanks etc so they can clear the way for the lings/banes/roaches. They are not for cleaning up units


Wrong. YOu cant win in a direct confrontation with mariens against ultra/infestor. You only win if you can abuse the map in some way.
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 10:22 GMT
#8
what zerg on earth go ultralisk with out infrestor ? -_-
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 21 2011 10:37 GMT
#9
@hlider Ah well I don't rmb the rankings of all the players I play against and I don't invest as much time as you to argue for the sake of it

That being said logick is the current account I ptactice new builds on while I play on my othwr account Pesi

As for taking a late third.. I do so to be safe and just because I can.. I assume that you watched most of the replays so you should see that by the time I take a 4th the game is pretty much ending

As for the marine play its for me to replenish my army supply quickly and strongly compared to making 7 facts

But I guess u overlooked that point when u just look for stuff to disagree qith for the sake of it

Well you can play your style and ill play mine.. Just thought I'd share
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 12:19:29
October 21 2011 11:42 GMT
#10
Hate to be that guy, but looking at all 3 replays:
1st you get 6pooled and hold it and are far far far ahead
2nd you don't even open this build, get far behind, but your opponent is incredibly bad and just looses due to stupidity really. He has like 8 bls and like 6 infestors(with very high energy) and you had 4-5 unmicroed vikings, somehow the vikings are able to kill the bls, I just dont... That should've been game, loosing the 3rd and your army, esp. since you didn't really have the production to transition to bio. Heck I'm pretty sure any zerg can tell you how well it goes getting your roaches funneled through a small choke(in this case shakuras's Xelnaga tower choke) against tanks + PF.
3rd well you are able to 2 bunker him, not much to say more like the first replay.

I'm not really convinced that this build actually works, since you need to throw so much money into production buildings, get behind on upgrades and you get the downsize of mech(the immobility, so the zerg takes the rest of the map) while you don't really get the advantage of it(the insane cost efficiency), since you are throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades, making your mech army smaller and therefor easier to crush.
I mean I won't rule it out, but in theory this is very bad and in practice I don't feel you've proven that it works.

Edit: Ohh only looked at the extra replays, gonna look at the rest now.

Edit#2: Well in these replays you never really win because of any transition, heck if most games you win because some people clearly don't know how to fight mech and/or because you get a double bunker down. It amazes me tbh that a GM player doesn't send a drone to follow the scv. Also your opponents have a really hard time upgrading, it just amazes me. To me, bio mech probably would've been better, because 3-3 rines against 1-0 or 0-1 zerg units is just lol.
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 16:33:31
October 21 2011 16:32 GMT
#11
On October 21 2011 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:


Edit#2: Well in these replays you never really win because of any transition, heck if most games you win because some people clearly don't know how to fight mech and/or because you get a double bunker down. It amazes me tbh that a GM player doesn't send a drone to follow the scv. Also your opponents have a really hard time upgrading, it just amazes me. To me, bio mech probably would've been better, because 3-3 rines against 1-0 or 0-1 zerg units is just lol.


you are totally missing the point of what i stated in the guide and that is the amount of minerals you have banked up gives you the OPTION to go bio quickly if you lose your army

and i do show how the transition plays out in at least 2 replays

On October 21 2011 20:42 Zarahtra wrote:
I'm not really convinced that this build actually works, since you need to throw so much money into production buildings, get behind on upgrades and you get the downsize of mech(the immobility, so the zerg takes the rest of the map) while you don't really get the advantage of it(the insane cost efficiency), since you are throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades, making your mech army smaller and therefor easier to crush.
I mean I won't rule it out, but in theory this is very bad and in practice I don't feel you've proven that it works.


im not convinced that you actually watched the replays and looked at the stats carefully, if you check the units lost tab for most of them, the zergs have either double or more resources lost in units compared and that is the cost efficiency I'm talking about

and I'm not sure what you mean by "throwing a lot of cash into buildings and upgrades making your mech army smaller and there for easier to crush" when i have up to 2k minerals banked and a near maxed army

one of the key points i forgot to point out is the fact that this build allows you to trade so cost efficiently that you can be behind on 3 bases and behind the zerg most of the time and still crush them

nearly all my games I'm sitting on at MOST 3 bases and its still possible to just crush through the zerg force because most of the time my minerals are banked up and i don't need to spend so much because I'm trading at cost efficient levels


as for roaches running into siege tanks, i believe the only way to break +3 weapon tanks + thors + helions is to make brood lords because any ground unit that attempts to do so will be obliterated, even ultralisks

and as for the shakuras game how the vikings killed all the BLs when there were festors with apparently high energy, i guess you turned a blind eye to the point where he started to drop fested terrans and lost all that energy

also, 6 rax with reactors + 1 techlab rax = 13 marines every 30 seconds, i think thats enough production for transition unless I've mistaken
but apparently under your second edit seems to insinuate that every player I've played against is a scrub and hence insinuates that nearly every zerg in the SEA server is a scrub

i guess i'm just a scrub who happened to play against worse players all the time, just my luck right?

haters gonna hate

edit: haters gotta hate right?

nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 18:21 GMT
#12
The transition doesn't make sense, all the replays you didn't won becuase the transition but you crush the enermy with you mech ,then you switch to marine and said yeah i win coz the fucking marine right ? ,who need a marines with 0/0 and start upgrade in the late game ?

yeah That GM zerg is bad at zvt i beat him every times we fight,others zerg is bad that's all.they didn't scout at all , they didn't know how to deal with mech army, They did'nt send a drone to follow scv, they didn't take the advantage that you camping with 1st base so long (10-14 minute for 1st expo that lol) they just camping making units instead of drone/ 3rd,4th expo. etc...

"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
DarkCore
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany4194 Posts
October 21 2011 19:07 GMT
#13
You never really describe when you get the third OC. You just say it depends on what pressure you do, and that's it. I looked at this build because I'm curious when/how you get it. Also, when do you get the starport? Do you always have it around, or make it at a specific time?

People have been complaining about your replays.If you've been winning so many games with this build, then the Zerg players you play must be getting better and better. Haven't you had any problems yet? Give replays of you losing games.
Fixed a bug where LeBlanc could lose
saaaa
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany419 Posts
October 21 2011 19:30 GMT
#14
i read all comments on this thread...

i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like

- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style

BUT..

i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking

- you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
- with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
- you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me


In conclusion:

In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.

Maybe we can discuss this as well but please be objectiv thats way more effectiv than the style "haters gonna hate" etc.



nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 19:41:14
October 21 2011 19:36 GMT
#15
On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
i read all comments on this thread...

i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like

- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style

BUT..

i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking

- you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
- with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
- you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me


In conclusion:

In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.

Maybe we can discuss this as well but please be objectiv thats way more effectiv than the style "haters gonna hate" etc.





i see Major opening with reactor hellion then 2 fact making hellion & tank w/ some marines then push @ ~10 then transition to MMT that work pretty well.
you can find the replay @ Evil Geniuses Master's Cup Series V week 4 Sixjax Major vs M+Lalush game 3
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
saaaa
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany419 Posts
October 21 2011 19:41 GMT
#16
yes i also think that the mech+bio style is really really strong...

i don't test it til now but i imagine that this would work pretty well:

-reactor hellion FE maybe with bunker or natural block
-2 fac with 1-2 Baracks to produce marines
- attack with normal hellions and maybe 4 tanks and 20+ Marines and maybe 1-2 medivac
- after that transition into TMM

maybe works but should you build more than the initinal 4 hellions or just keep them and integrate them into your "timing push" with maybe stim, siegemode and mediVacs?

I think this style is way harder for the zerg and more powerful than your mech into bio, which you explained in your first posts
Snusdosa
Profile Joined October 2011
Sweden112 Posts
October 21 2011 20:13 GMT
#17
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
October 21 2011 20:22 GMT
#18
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl

In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
October 21 2011 20:27 GMT
#19
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl


Did you see GSL terran counter Ultralisk with marines or Maruader ?
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
October 21 2011 20:33 GMT
#20
A question:
Since the sickest, most insane, late game Terran army pretty much has to include ghosts as the counter to tier 3 and infestors, why aren't you including them? Not enough gas off 3 bases? Some other reason?

The composition and build looks really solid, I just wonder about the noticeable lack of ghosts - the only thing that imho can combat late late game 5 base zerg.

I am a zerg player mid masters EU, so just asking why?
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 00:33:30
October 21 2011 22:52 GMT
#21
let me try to answer a few of your questions for your

first off

On October 22 2011 03:21 nOondn wrote:
The transition doesn't make sense, all the replays you didn't won becuase the transition but you crush the enermy with you mech ,then you switch to marine and said yeah i win coz the fucking marine right ? ,who need a marines with 0/0 and start upgrade in the late game ?

yeah That GM zerg is bad at zvt i beat him every times we fight,others zerg is bad that's all.they didn't scout at all , they didn't know how to deal with mech army, They did'nt send a drone to follow scv, they didn't take the advantage that you camping with 1st base so long (10-14 minute for 1st expo that lol) they just camping making units instead of drone/ 3rd,4th expo. etc...

"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "



this guy is either an idiot or just trolling because all his comments seem to indicate that he doesnt really know how to read carefully

i never once said that i won the game because of marines, but rather i have the option the key word being OPTION (i put that in bold and CAPS just for you) to transit into something that is heavily mobile and easier to produce in high quantities

and I guess you're blind because i never have 0/0 marines in the late game
never

On October 22 2011 05:27 nOondn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl


Did you see GSL terran counter Ultralisk with marines or Maruader ?


so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder

On October 22 2011 04:07 DarkCore wrote:
You never really describe when you get the third OC. You just say it depends on what pressure you do, and that's it. I looked at this build because I'm curious when/how you get it. Also, when do you get the starport? Do you always have it around, or make it at a specific time?

People have been complaining about your replays.If you've been winning so many games with this build, then the Zerg players you play must be getting better and better. Haven't you had any problems yet? Give replays of you losing games.


i get a starport after my 4th factory. there will hardly ever be a time where you will be low on resources (unless you have it all Q-ed up)

the problem is I haven't lost a game yet since using this build properly. as i've mentioned, the only reason you will lose with this build is if you get caught off guard by forgetting something, e.g. turrets, scans, getting caught unsieged, wrong unit comp, etc.

On October 22 2011 04:41 saaaa wrote:
yes i also think that the mech+bio style is really really strong...

i don't test it til now but i imagine that this would work pretty well:

-reactor hellion FE maybe with bunker or natural block
-2 fac with 1-2 Baracks to produce marines
- attack with normal hellions and maybe 4 tanks and 20+ Marines and maybe 1-2 medivac
- after that transition into TMM

maybe works but should you build more than the initinal 4 hellions or just keep them and integrate them into your "timing push" with maybe stim, siegemode and mediVacs?

I think this style is way harder for the zerg and more powerful than your mech into bio, which you explained in your first posts


i understand that most people like to do timing pushes but I'm a much more patient player.

also understand that most games when zerg scouts the reactor factory with their ling, they tend to go roaches and in most of my replays, if i had made a helion marine push, i would have gotten rolled over by roaches

most of the times the easiest way to combat helions and deter them is to get roaches and thats what most zerg players in my replays do

On October 22 2011 05:33 aebriol wrote:
A question:
Since the sickest, most insane, late game Terran army pretty much has to include ghosts as the counter to tier 3 and infestors, why aren't you including them? Not enough gas off 3 bases? Some other reason?

The composition and build looks really solid, I just wonder about the noticeable lack of ghosts - the only thing that imho can combat late late game 5 base zerg.

I am a zerg player mid masters EU, so just asking why?



if you take a look at the antiga and tal'darim altar game, even though the zergs are on 5 base compared to my 3 or 4 base, i am still able to demolish his army and take the game.

this is because the mech army itself is able to wipe out anything that walks the ground. i chose a transition to marines because it suits my style more than ghosts, and also because ghosts take a ridiculous amount of time to build

even against late game infestors, marines with medivacs, decent splitting micro and with tanks to shell on the infestors, you will never have to worry about losing your army

in most games, as you begin to push out with the mech army, most of the time what the zerg throws at you will get demolished, and they will switch to broodlords to try and destroy you, but you should have vikings out already which will be no problem

and because:
1. their army keeps getting crushed
2. their broodlords become useless

as the zerg keeps throwing units that die insanely quick to tanks, they run out of resources so quick that they can't even get a critical mass of ultras, and even if they were to get maybe 15 utlras (which i have yet to see) the mech army will kill at least 5-10 of them before it gets destroyed, and by the time the ultras reach my base there will be 60-80 marines

of course getting that many ultras without the gas is the key problem for zergs, and most of the time when ultras are out, the zerg bases across the map are being torn apart and there arent really more than 5 ultras out at a time



On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
i read all comments on this thread...

i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like

- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style

BUT..

i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking

1. you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
2. with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
3. you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me





I'll try to address all your points:

1. i get the upgrades on my marines after the turret range upgrade but only if it doesnt affect my unit production, otherwise i will never have better upgrades on my marines than my tanks, remember that this is a preparation move for a transition
2. it doesnt matter if the zerg double expands. once your mech army reaches its critical mass of tanks thors and vikings, you can crush through any ground unit composition the zerg army throws at you
3. I don't think you understand the point i was trying to bring across. the reason i can bank so much minerals is because I'm trading more cost efficiently during army battles. I can bank this much because i dont have to replace my units as much

On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
In conclusion:

In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.


i dont need to force them into roach heavy play because generally they will go roach heavy anyway as you can see from the replays

and like i said i can invest in upgrades i possibly dont use in the match because my army trades are more cost effcient than the zergs, even if i didnt waste resources on upgrades i didnt use, i would have a huge bank which i wouldnt have used either way.

in a way, i could say that i could get every possible terran upgraded if i wanted and i would still be fine
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-21 23:14:16
October 21 2011 23:10 GMT
#22
"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "

you're pretty silly


watch replay 1 on antiga

here's what i mean by scout what the zerg composition is:

up to the point the spire has gone up, he has only gone mass ling with spines and has been collecting gas like a mad man, and yet he doesnt throw any banelings with lings to try and bust my wall, this coupled with the knowledge that hes definitely NOT going anything silly like Hydras indicates to me that hes going to be pretty muta heavy, which is the case where he gets 30 mutas

and immediately i drop the amount of turrets i think are sufficient at that point in time

you seem to enjoy dissing my turret guide so I'll point out something critical here:

because of 4 turrets in my base, a flock of 30 mutas came in and did absolutely not economical dmg to me at all, i may have lost a few 2 thors as they came out, but he lost way more mutas and killed no SCVs or hindered my production in anyway

edit: in replay 2, he sends his mutas into my base the first time around when i wasnt prepared and i lost 3 depots, and after that he sends more mutas to my base, loses 4 of them to turrets, takes heavy amounts of dmg on them and achieves no dmg at all

this is the kinda of muta deterrence im talking about


On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl

In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?


the fact is that when you go a heavy roach army, do you bother to get melee upgrades? by the time he even decides to get melee upgrades its too late already
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 21 2011 23:58 GMT
#23
On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl

In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?


In a world where the cracklings glitch out the ultralisks and you have one medivac for each marine.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 06:31:15
October 22 2011 06:30 GMT
#24
this guy is either an idiot or just trolling because all his comments seem to indicate that he doesnt really know how to read carefully

i never once said that i won the game because of marines, but rather i have the option the key word being OPTION (i put that in bold and CAPS just for you) to transit into something that is heavily mobile and easier to produce in high quantities

and I guess you're blind because i never have 0/0 marines in the late game
never


18 min in game is not late game ? i watch all replays dude

you guide said to start upgrade your marine after turret range,it mean you waste your mineral into the army that you didn't to use in that time but for the future. what if you get crush by the zerg army ? you need that money for build up the mech armys not for upgrade, if you want to play this way you need to turtle and that make zerg have more bases , you can't make a mistake to throwaway the armys in the mid game.The money that you have it not by having 3 OC(becuase you expo very late 10-14 minute in game) but you camping with out harass or some thing like that.





so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder


is any zerg go ultralisk with out infestor ? who play that
people not playing that way
mass ling + infestor transition to ultralisk/broodlord in late game
lingbling+muta -> infestor -> broodlord/ultralisk in late game
infestor is always in their position
so i confuse how you use mass marine counter ultralisk ? unless you got 3-4 thors to tank damage from ultralisk -_-.

the fact is that when you go a heavy roach army, do you bother to get melee upgrades? by the time he even decides to get melee upgrades its too late already


You play mech style and turtle,don't you think zerg have better economy than you ? they can upgrade like you upgrade.

you're pretty silly


watch replay 1 on antiga

here's what i mean by scout what the zerg composition is:

up to the point the spire has gone up, he has only gone mass ling with spines and has been collecting gas like a mad man, and yet he doesnt throw any banelings with lings to try and bust my wall, this coupled with the knowledge that hes definitely NOT going anything silly like Hydras indicates to me that hes going to be pretty muta heavy, which is the case where he gets 30 mutas

and immediately i drop the amount of turrets i think are sufficient at that point in time

you seem to enjoy dissing my turret guide so I'll point out something critical here:

because of 4 turrets in my base, a flock of 30 mutas came in and did absolutely not economical dmg to me at all, i may have lost a few 2 thors as they came out, but he lost way more mutas and killed no SCVs or hindered my production in anyway

edit: in replay 2, he sends his mutas into my base the first time around when i wasnt prepared and i lost 3 depots, and after that he sends more mutas to my base, loses 4 of them to turrets, takes heavy amounts of dmg on them and achieves no dmg at all

this is the kinda of muta deterrence im talking about


becuase you play mech first, you need a lot of turrets.but for a player who play MMT, 1000+ mineral for turrets upgrade and turrets is too much. MMT can't sit in base and camping like you do,MMT need invest mineral into armys to harass/cut zerg expo.So basicly 1-2 turrets and marine is cost efficient than 10 turrets.

and what about game on xelnaga ?

you build up to 10 turrets with out see any army composition ? can you tell me what a reason behind that ? lol

about your guide it doesn't make any sense you tell people "if you see many mutas, lets build more turrets?" lol


Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 07:25:22
October 22 2011 07:22 GMT
#25
On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:

you guide said to start upgrade your marine after turret range,it mean you waste your mineral into the army that you didn't to use in that time but for the future. what if you get crush by the zerg army ? you need that money for build up the mech armys not for upgrade, if you want to play this way you need to turtle and that make zerg have more bases , you can't make a mistake to throwaway the armys in the mid game.The money that you have it not by having 3 OC(becuase you expo very late 10-14 minute in game) but you camping with out harass or some thing like that.


wow you are so dumb that its actually pretty damn funny, i guess you failed english comprehension at the pre-school level

in my guide, i stated to start marine upgrades after turret range if it doesnt hinder your mech army production or upgrades in anyway

read the bold ffs, or do you not understand what hinder means?

On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:

is any zerg go ultralisk with out infestor ? who play that
people not playing that way
mass ling + infestor transition to ultralisk/broodlord in late game
lingbling+muta -> infestor -> broodlord/ultralisk in late game
infestor is always in their position
so i confuse how you use mass marine counter ultralisk ? unless you got 3-4 thors to tank damage from ultralisk -_-.


i can't even believe my eyes at how your stupidity knows no bounds

i state that your end game army after your thors get wiped out will consist of at least +3 weapons marines and + 3weapon tanks with vikings in case of brood lords

even if the tanks weren't in siege mode the sheer dps of the tanks and marines will destroy ultras easily

and what if they couple infestors with ultras? thats what the tanks are for

in the first place i dont even think you understand the simple fundamentals or mechanics of the game and youre just reading what you want to read and trolling

On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
You play mech style and turtle,don't you think zerg have better economy than you ? they can upgrade like you upgrade.


in the xel'naga game against praeterus or whatever his name is
he has 2/2 uprades for his roaches against my 3/0 tanks, and still it does nothing for him when i slow push to his base. did it matter that he was on 4 base and i was practically on 2? no it didnt
why? because I have the more cost efficient army

i find it amazing even after watching ALL the replays as you claim that you cannot identify how the zerg production mechanics worked, that because I was trading armies more cost efficiently, the zerg was blowing all his resources on remaking his army only to lose it, while i only had to continue to buffer mine slightly and keep pushing, where at the end of the day even on 5 base, he is running low on resources because he has to keep up production

so what kind of zerg doesnt make infestors to go with his ultras? the kind that doesnt have enough gas for it

On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
becuase you play mech first, you need a lot of turrets.but for a player who play MMT, 1000+ mineral for turrets upgrade and turrets is too much. MMT can't sit in base and camping like you do,MMT need invest mineral into armys to harass/cut zerg expo.So basicly 1-2 turrets and marine is cost efficient than 10 turrets.

well thank god this isnt a guide for MMT is it? topic derailed much?


On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
and what about game on xelnaga ?

you build up to 10 turrets with out see any army composition ? can you tell me what a reason behind that ? lol

about your guide it doesn't make any sense you tell people "if you see many mutas, lets build more turrets?" lol


it says to build a few extra turrets instead of just 1 or 2 to defend against muta harass, im pretty sure I've already stated the prominence of the turrets in the antiga replay

edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047&currentpage=9#164

as for dropping 10 turrets, there is no way that i drop 10 turrets INSTANTLY or at 1 go because that would just be ridiculous

either way, had i dropped 10 turrets, or 20 turrets, or maybe even 30 turrets, it wouldnt have matter much because i still had the more cost efficient army and I ended up having a huge bank anyway

turrets didnt cost me the game

my mech army didnt cost me the game

my bio upgrades didnt cost me the game

did i lose any of the games? no

did turtling on 3 base game? no?


unless I'm missing something here, it's as if you're going out of your way to tell me why I'm going to lose the game, when in reality I'm winning every single one of them

do yourself a favor:
1.do your research
2. open your eyes
3. understand what the meaning of cost efficient is
4. actually analyze the game
5. learn to comprehend english properly

do all of the above, and then come back when you actually have a solid argument, because everything comment you've made up to now has made you look like an even bigger idiot before the last
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 07:38:29
October 22 2011 07:28 GMT
#26
so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder

Marauders are king against ultras. Just have to split your units, and kite them better. Marauders RAPE ultras, compared to marines that take like 100 shots to kill an ultra (number out of my ass)

With marauders in compo, you can stim and box and bounce to pick off hatches, structures, and even more important -- infestors.

and what if they couple infestors with ultras? thats what the tanks are for

Really? From my experience, it's like 50% ling, 25% uiltra, 25% infestor (out of my ass again) It's at least 6+ infestors, and with that many lings and probably banes... the sling ultra will trade effectively, especially if they get a fungal on those marines. Fungal rapes marines. Fungal hurts marauders, but doesn't kill.


When you see ultra tech, I get 4+ more raxes, and tech lab all of 'em for a marine marauder mix. Also, I get ghosts for ultras, and broods, because snipe makes easier work on ultras.

And that GM zerg... he wasn't quite so good. You only won because he lost his nat, and didn't take a third unti l14 minutes, and still sat on 3 gas, not 4, no tech up. 18 minutes now, nothing but 1-0 roaches... and no tech, third barely mining, 1 evo,

PS your macro is a bit shifty as well. Take a third, abuse the mech safety factor, and take a third earlier. You had 9 mules unused at end of game, 2 CCs not morphing into anything, no transition in sight, and only 3 facs. You should at that point have your mass raxes up, and be on 3 base taking a 4th with a strong arm PF. Abuse mech. Abuse PFs.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
Trump
Profile Joined April 2010
United States350 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 07:32:26
October 22 2011 07:30 GMT
#27
Great guide. This is a strong strategy up to mid-masters.

Note that I didn't say that it was a strong strategy up to grandmasters though. This is a strategy I did and thought was quite good against mutalisk play.

However, zerg can go the other method. Infestor. I found myself unable to push and win fights in the open against roach/infestor. In the late game, it seems that roach/infestor/broodlord/(ultralisk) is a very tough composition to defeat.



[...]

But I guess your answer is to transition to marine/tank/viking. I guess that might work. But getting those marines up to +3 surely must be more gas intensive are difficult than is implied. :o
Friendship is Magic! <3
Trump
Profile Joined April 2010
United States350 Posts
October 22 2011 07:35 GMT
#28
One of your reasons for mech is:

-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons


But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways.

I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.
Friendship is Magic! <3
spbelky
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States623 Posts
October 22 2011 07:40 GMT
#29
On October 22 2011 16:35 Trump wrote:
One of your reasons for mech is:

Show nested quote +
-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons


But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways.

I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.


/agree

marine/tank and mech are both viable strats, but no matter which strat you go with, you need ghosts late game TvZ. You might be able to win games without ghosts.. but that's because the zerg is just bad to be honset. Maybe not "bad", but if you're both high masters / GM, if you don't get ghosts you're putting yourself at a severe disadvantage, and the only way you're going to win WITHOUT ghosts vs any lategame zerg who has any combo of infestor/brolord/ultras ... is by them doing something dumb.
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 22 2011 07:50 GMT
#30
@iamjeffrey

I've never been put up against a strong combination like that because by the time it reaches the point they have ultras they dont have enough gas to produce more than 5 let alone produce infestors (already stated)

also why they dont have enough gas is because I've been slowly starving them out by taking out expansions rather than going for the heart of their tech (also stated already)

anyway, you like bio, i like mech. to each his own eh?
I'm not trying to force this onto anyone, I'd just thought I'd share, but if theres a certain fool who's gonna try to deface this guide because hes too silly to comprehend it then I'm gonna have to shoo him away

@trump
i've only managed to play against 1 GM zerg so far and it was a pretty shoddy game since he let me double bunker (maybe he thought i would over commit to it or something iono) but i basically got far ahead and rolled him over

i havent had a problem with any roach/infestor builds, when i scout out infestation pit instead of spire, i immediately cut production of thors and continue to pump out siege tanks and helions, there is no ground unit in the world possible for the zerg army combat against 15 +3 weapon siege tanks with thors BFH and helions to buffer

in any of the replays that the zerg goes ultra's he isnt able to sustain a suitable army to buffer them because he doesnt have the resources to do so

in relation to you marine upgrades question, no it is actually not that gas intensive, in the long run i will have so much gas left over that its actually funny

the key is to get the bio upgrades when you know that you have sufficient gas to continue your own mech production + upgrades

i played a game today against a zerg, and even though the majority of my mech army was caught unsieged and destroyed because i wasnt paying attention(like 60 supply's worth) i was still able to come back into it in the long run because of the superior efficiency of my army


if you guys have any questions, just watch some of the replays and take note of:

1. the cost efficiency of the mech army,
2. how much resources the zerg has wasted into reproducing his army compared to mine (units lost resources)
3. my bank
4. when i get my bio upgrades
5. how much gas i have as compared to how much i need

Mr.SoloDolo
Profile Joined June 2011
American Samoa90 Posts
October 22 2011 07:55 GMT
#31
I really like this build Logick, nice work!

Mech into Bio feels strange though...
Incontrol+Idra+Tyler Fighting
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 08:00:13
October 22 2011 07:56 GMT
#32
On October 22 2011 16:35 Trump wrote:
One of your reasons for mech is:

Show nested quote +
-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons


But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways.

I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.



one of my other reasons for going mech is also the fact that marines are extremely vulnerable to banes as well as the fact that defensively they dont what it takes to defend muta harass without taking losses yourself

sure you can make 1 turret and sit 8 marines next to it but youre still going to lose to a ball of 15-16 mutas

in reality, marines trying to defend muta harass, u lose marines, and even if you dont, most of the time you end up forcing stims that keep you low on medivac energy, something that although might seem like a small thing, ends up being a small loss that piles up on your end

and there is a vast difference between going marine tank in the early game compared to marine tank in the late game, that difference being, by the time it hits late game, my opponent does not spot the mass marine production until its already in his face, and there wont even be enough time / let alone gas for him to make banelings to counter this


edit: i think im starting to get a grasp of the misconception people are having here so I'll try to clear it out straight away.

when i say mech into end game bio, it really means that by the end game, your mech army would have demolished most of the zergs, and what ever you have lost you can easily remax with the bio to take away the rest of the game rather than wait forever to remax with mech units

so rather than wait maybe 5-6 mins to remax and take the rest of the game, i can just do it in 1-2 mins with marines

does that make any sense?
me_viet
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1350 Posts
October 22 2011 08:19 GMT
#33
On October 22 2011 08:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:
On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:
On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ????


they are actually cost efficient, lawl

In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?


In a world where the cracklings glitch out the ultralisks and you have one medivac for each marine.


lol reminds me of a game where I had 10 ultras and a few lings left, and he had 20 marines and like 6-7 medivacs. Both sides fully upgraded

I lost horribly lolololol. Don't think I killed a single marine lol.
sykofu
Profile Joined December 2010
United States3 Posts
October 22 2011 16:11 GMT
#34
Nice work logick - it amazes me that all these negative posters are repeatedly picking apart parts of the strategy rather than looking at it as a whole. It's easy to point out things out of context and it reminds me of political debates here in the US. Well written and as you said, when executed properly with proper scouting/info, it really becomes a powerful strat.

A witty saying proves nothing.
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
October 22 2011 17:19 GMT
#35
...I did watch the replays. I chose the GM zerg. Who only took 3 gas. Didn't take a third. Didn't tech out of roaches. Didn't even upgrade his roaches.

All I'm saying is, that one game is an awful example. It wasn't because you starved him. The game was won when you took out his natural, and he didn't try to counter at all.

And I like bio? No. I like winning. I open mech usually ALL TvZ, but not this way. I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.


You didn't really starve him out, he starved himself out by throwing roaches away and not expanding...
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 20:53:32
October 22 2011 20:50 GMT
#36
but from your statement it seems to indicate that that was the only replay u watched?

that one isnt a prime example of the build at all, but rather an example of the opener an how safe it is to get a 3rd OC so fast.

so if you said you did watch the replays and then only mention that one replay then well.. =/ i dunno what to say

1 replay isnt indicative of the entire build

i even go out of my way to give some highlights of the replay im surprised you dont mention the 3rd one at all

On October 23 2011 02:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.


which is exactly why i say to each his own
iAmJeffReY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States4262 Posts
October 22 2011 20:55 GMT
#37
On October 23 2011 05:50 Logick wrote:
but from your statement it seems to indicate that that was the only replay u watched?

that one isnt a prime example of the build at all, but rather an example of the opener an how safe it is to get a 3rd OC so fast.

so if you said you did watch the replays and then only mention that one replay then well.. =/ i dunno what to say

1 replay isnt indicative of the entire build

i even go out of my way to give some highlights of the replay im surprised you dont mention the 3rd one at all

Show nested quote +
On October 23 2011 02:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.


which is exactly why i say to each his own

...because it's against a high diamond zerg, I chose not to watch. Pardon me for not wanting to waste time seeing a strat executed against someone that can't even execute their own race well yet.
Unbiased biased terran abuser Jeffrey. Sorry for the rage, friend!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9391 Posts
October 22 2011 21:08 GMT
#38
On October 21 2011 19:37 Logick wrote:
@hlider Ah well I don't rmb the rankings of all the players I play against and I don't invest as much time as you to argue for the sake of it

That being said logick is the current account I ptactice new builds on while I play on my othwr account Pesi

As for taking a late third.. I do so to be safe and just because I can.. I assume that you watched most of the replays so you should see that by the time I take a 4th the game is pretty much ending

As for the marine play its for me to replenish my army supply quickly and strongly compared to making 7 facts

But I guess u overlooked that point when u just look for stuff to disagree qith for the sake of it

Well you can play your style and ill play mine.. Just thought I'd share


You can only do that because your playing against bad players who makes tons of mistakes.

And again you just completely fail to understand my arguments. Sure you could disagree with me, but you dont understand the points I am trying to make. I kinda expect this is because your kinda a medium skilled players who dont have a lot of succes at sc2 and want to feel good makings guides. However this just shows your lack of game understanding, and you aren't open minded when better players tell you about the weakness of your game plan. Now I dont expect you to ever agree with me, but if you actually want to make good guides at the time, you ahve to keep playing a lot. Watch a lot of games and reflect even more upon the games, and get to at least GM SEA or midmaster EU/NA before you can make guides that are universally true (and not just work because your opponents dont understand the game/ makes mistakes).

Btw I dont think your more stupid or worse than the average low master/diamond sea player, I just think you overrate your self and your abilites to analyze games and understand the complexities.

I am done posting in this btw. No point really, as you never seem to understand my the logic behind my arguments, and most other people (besides you) agree with me.
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
October 22 2011 22:03 GMT
#39
It's a pretty good write-up. I think you laid out some very good tips for lower ranked players. High ranked players might disagree with your late game strategy, but if it's working, that's what matters.
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10345 Posts
October 22 2011 22:21 GMT
#40
Aside from the fact that you may have a lot of minerals to dump, why not just keep making Mech? You already have 3/3 or at least 2/2. Also a misconception people seem to have is that bio is a lot easier to replenish than mech. This may be true in some cases, but not enough to make such a generalization. Let's compare Thors to marines. The equivalent of getting 1 factory 150/100 is about the same as a barracks with reactor 200/50. Let's talk about maxing to a 200/200 army as soon as possible. If you mass thors, that's 6 supply every 60 seconds, so 1 supply per 10 seconds. For marines, it's 2 supply every 25 seconds, or 1 supply every 12.5 seconds. Even with the reactors, marines are still slightly slower to replenish. Really it is only the tank that take a long time to replenish, 3 supply at 45 seconds which is 33% slower than Thors, or take 50% longer. Let alone the fact that tanks are weak until you get a big number of them, especially because it would take a long time to rebuild an army if you lose your army [again].

Why not dump those minerals into more expansions as you attack with your mech army, and keep making mech? Another thing to consider is that Hellions are similar to Zerglings -- during a fight, you can quickly reinforce by making a mass wave of hellions. They may not be that supply efficient, but they reinforce very quickly and can dump those minerals and will be able to deal with any quick zergling remax that the zerg might do. They build a bit slower than Marines, but you already have the mech upgrades and hellions can get back to your army faster.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-23 00:35:52
October 23 2011 00:34 GMT
#41
@yoshi

the stats you provided are nice but you also forget that thors move INCREDIBLY slow and they have a super slow attack speed as well

in the end game if a zerg is running out of gas and just mass produces lings, you thors will be utterly useless

whereas compared to marines u can rolled through just about anything with + 3 as well as spread them out quickly over the map to prevent zerg from getting up any more expansions
The.Doctor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada333 Posts
October 23 2011 00:50 GMT
#42
You say you like mech because you only have to get mech upgrades...
Then you say you get 3/3 marines to counter ultras? Wat?

Your BO can be more optimized too.

only 2 marines out of rax then reactor while factory building
make CC, make SD, make 4 helions while leaving 1 SCV in gas after fact + reactor made and add tech lab to rax
add another CC after 4 helions
I do that then transition to bio tank while using helions to stop creep spread and take map control.

BTW in your production section, 3 OCs does not mean you can have 5-6 mules at a time. It means that if you have bad macro, you'll have 5-6 mules at a time. Constant drops should mean 3 mules.
The Boss.
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 23 2011 01:16 GMT
#43
On October 23 2011 09:50 The.Doctor wrote:
You say you like mech because you only have to get mech upgrades...
Then you say you get 3/3 marines to counter ultras? Wat?

Your BO can be more optimized too.

only 2 marines out of rax then reactor while factory building
make CC, make SD, make 4 helions while leaving 1 SCV in gas after fact + reactor made and add tech lab to rax
add another CC after 4 helions
I do that then transition to bio tank while using helions to stop creep spread and take map control.

BTW in your production section, 3 OCs does not mean you can have 5-6 mules at a time. It means that if you have bad macro, you'll have 5-6 mules at a time. Constant drops should mean 3 mules.



as mentioned, alot of you are nit picking at little sections while not looking at the structure of the guide as a whole

i also point out that you do not want to use all your OC energy on mules, but to keep at least some energy for scans

and yes i state do i prefer mech normally the entire game, but in the course of losing a large portion of my army OR all my thors (no anti air) i can easily remax with 3/3 marines because i already have an abundance of resources to upgrade and increase my the amount of production structures that does not hinder the production of my mech army

and by the time zerg get ultras, he wont have enough to sustain building more than 5 (also already stated)

a lot of you have to look at the guide as whole and put all the information together, instead of reading 1 section and going: "oh this is totally fail" and then u reach the next section and, "oh this doesnt make sense at all"
The.Doctor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada333 Posts
October 23 2011 03:02 GMT
#44
But you shouldn't have a surplus of minerals when going mech, if you're playing it right.

Mineral dump goes like this:

Hardcore helion harass is large portion of where your mins go in early game
CCs and turrets mid to late game while not getting too many scvs. Why not making too many SCVs? Larger standing army and more CCs and PFs.

If you've spent that many minerals on rax and gas on upgrades, something is going to be lacking, either you have too many scvs and too small of a standing army (maybe the reason why you're having to remax on marines?), less tanks, less CCs etc.
The Boss.
cristo1122
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia505 Posts
October 23 2011 03:23 GMT
#45
hmm i watch the first three replays and i feel that some of the advanages that u gained were due to mistakes mad by the zerg (unforced errors) that allowed for u to take large mid game risks so that u could move out with a 3/3 mech army probly get some more replays from high masters players before using this.
ZvP imbalanced blizzards solution nerf terran
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
October 23 2011 06:33 GMT
#46
all i got to say is that build works for my style of play and i'm going to be using it more now seeing as it helps me out deal with lower league zerg players. anyway thanks =D
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10345 Posts
October 23 2011 06:43 GMT
#47
On October 23 2011 10:16 Logick wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2011 09:50 The.Doctor wrote:
You say you like mech because you only have to get mech upgrades...
Then you say you get 3/3 marines to counter ultras? Wat?

Your BO can be more optimized too.

only 2 marines out of rax then reactor while factory building
make CC, make SD, make 4 helions while leaving 1 SCV in gas after fact + reactor made and add tech lab to rax
add another CC after 4 helions
I do that then transition to bio tank while using helions to stop creep spread and take map control.

BTW in your production section, 3 OCs does not mean you can have 5-6 mules at a time. It means that if you have bad macro, you'll have 5-6 mules at a time. Constant drops should mean 3 mules.



as mentioned, alot of you are nit picking at little sections while not looking at the structure of the guide as a whole

i also point out that you do not want to use all your OC energy on mules, but to keep at least some energy for scans

and yes i state do i prefer mech normally the entire game, but in the course of losing a large portion of my army OR all my thors (no anti air) i can easily remax with 3/3 marines because i already have an abundance of resources to upgrade and increase my the amount of production structures that does not hinder the production of my mech army

and by the time zerg get ultras, he wont have enough to sustain building more than 5 (also already stated)

a lot of you have to look at the guide as whole and put all the information together, instead of reading 1 section and going: "oh this is totally fail" and then u reach the next section and, "oh this doesnt make sense at all"


Well that's why you optimize, so people who only want to read one part can... spend their time optimally.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
October 23 2011 07:17 GMT
#48
If your whole goal is to turtle and get to an end game with marine/medivac, why not just start off with mass marine/medivac and fast upgrades?
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-23 08:56:05
October 23 2011 08:54 GMT
#49
On October 23 2011 12:02 The.Doctor wrote:
But you shouldn't have a surplus of minerals when going mech, if you're playing it right.

Mineral dump goes like this:

Hardcore helion harass is large portion of where your mins go in early game
CCs and turrets mid to late game while not getting too many scvs. Why not making too many SCVs? Larger standing army and more CCs and PFs.

If you've spent that many minerals on rax and gas on upgrades, something is going to be lacking, either you have too many scvs and too small of a standing army (maybe the reason why you're having to remax on marines?), less tanks, less CCs etc.



60 SCVs + 3 orbitals is enough to cover the amount of mining i need to maintain my mech army and more

and no at the end of the day i dont find that I'm lacking in anything, i can still build 2 marines per rax with another 2 Q-ed up for 8-10 more rax and i'm still fine

pls read the parts about cost efficiency and banking

On October 23 2011 15:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

Well that's why you optimize, so people who only want to read one part can... spend their time optimally.


sorry i dont get this.. so basically i should just make the guide mech TvZ or marine tank TvZ? that totally doesnt make any sense, the problem is not that the guide isnt optimized, its that people just dont know how to read and absorb the information or they just cant comprehend the information, as is the case for the fellow below

On October 23 2011 16:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If your whole goal is to turtle and get to an end game with marine/medivac, why not just start off with mass marine/medivac and fast upgrades?



no one ever said that the goal was to turtle with mech and then switch to marine/medi

its clearly stated like at least 5-6 times through out the whole thread that the point upgrading bio and getting so many rax is to allow you the OPTION of re-maxing as fast as possible with a power and mobile army in the case IF you lose a large chunk of your army

and that i can do all this because my army trades more efficiently and i can build and upgrade the bio units in preparation for the transition without affecting my ongoing mech production




Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10345 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-23 18:54:17
October 23 2011 18:52 GMT
#50
On October 23 2011 17:54 Logick wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2011 12:02 The.Doctor wrote:
But you shouldn't have a surplus of minerals when going mech, if you're playing it right.

Mineral dump goes like this:

Hardcore helion harass is large portion of where your mins go in early game
CCs and turrets mid to late game while not getting too many scvs. Why not making too many SCVs? Larger standing army and more CCs and PFs.

If you've spent that many minerals on rax and gas on upgrades, something is going to be lacking, either you have too many scvs and too small of a standing army (maybe the reason why you're having to remax on marines?), less tanks, less CCs etc.



60 SCVs + 3 orbitals is enough to cover the amount of mining i need to maintain my mech army and more

and no at the end of the day i dont find that I'm lacking in anything, i can still build 2 marines per rax with another 2 Q-ed up for 8-10 more rax and i'm still fine

pls read the parts about cost efficiency and banking

Show nested quote +
On October 23 2011 15:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:

Well that's why you optimize, so people who only want to read one part can... spend their time optimally.


sorry i dont get this.. so basically i should just make the guide mech TvZ or marine tank TvZ? that totally doesnt make any sense, the problem is not that the guide isnt optimized, its that people just dont know how to read and absorb the information or they just cant comprehend the information, as is the case for the fellow below

Show nested quote +
On October 23 2011 16:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If your whole goal is to turtle and get to an end game with marine/medivac, why not just start off with mass marine/medivac and fast upgrades?



no one ever said that the goal was to turtle with mech and then switch to marine/medi

its clearly stated like at least 5-6 times through out the whole thread that the point upgrading bio and getting so many rax is to allow you the OPTION of re-maxing as fast as possible with a power and mobile army in the case IF you lose a large chunk of your army

and that i can do all this because my army trades more efficiently and i can build and upgrade the bio units in preparation for the transition without affecting my ongoing mech production






Nevermind sorry, I misread :<

Anyways I didn't see your response to my older post til now. Thors can be beaten by lings easily, but that's why you have hellions [and tanks if you want them]. I don't see why you should waste 900/900 resources or so to get stim, combat shield, and +3/+3 for bio when you already have the units it takes to deal with Zerg.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
nOondn
Profile Joined March 2011
564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 20:41:41
October 24 2011 13:47 GMT
#51
every one confuse becuase your topic name.

[G] TvZ 3OC Mech into bio end game


because you are playing a very heavy mech army, generally most engage are going to be extremely cost efficient for you (if you kept up with the upgrades)

however in the case you do lose a large chunk of your army, you want to be able to replenish it ASAP to continue your assault on the enemy base

i will explain how i achieve such quick replenishment (as seen in the introduction pictures)

Because you have such a high economy from 3OCs off the bat, and because you will be turtling a lot, you are going to have banked up a lot of minerals. by a lot, i mean up to 3000 or more. making more than 5 orbitals would be useless, so instead i throw down 6-8 rax with reactors

Since you also have 3-4 factories with tech labs, just pump out siege tanks from them, you will have enough anti air with marines and vikings (for brood lords) so you wont need any thors from here on out

This is how replenish my supply extremely quickly and often times this will win you the game

***Some extremely important things to note:

- after you research turret range, immediately begin researching + 1 weapons for your marines, drop another ebay and start researching + 1 armor if you want your marines to be even more overpowered.

- make sure to get a rax with a tech lab and research stim + shields as well.

- all this is done even as you're meching, so even if you have 1 rax, you are preparing for the transition to bio as a safety measure, and when you do transition over, you will have 3/3 or at least + 3 weapons marines and you will be unstoppable


it not like optional becuase it take time to prepare for upgrade you know ?
that mean if we follow by your guide we need to upgrade +1attck/+1deffend while we turtle with mech army (@10 min if i correct). that why people don't understand you point,we are not the New type ,who know the future. how you know that we gonna lose a big army or not , when we need bio ? you tell nothing but optional

in high level if zerg know you going mech w/ turtle mode (you can't waste too much gas into tank/thor while upgrade for marines,you also not harass anything with your hellion)so they can take advantage by get 3,4,5 bases (surely they have more economy than you) ,roach drop,nydus,tech etc. so that the problem with this build.
Mid Master Terran @ kr server fighting !!!
FlaminGinjaNinja
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom879 Posts
October 24 2011 14:20 GMT
#52
Brilliant write up, sounds like a truely solid strat, perhaps a little vulnerable in the early game to a strong 2 base all-in though (im thinking +1 burrowed roaches with nydus worms). The roaches could shutdown your hellions fairly easily and although you could effectivly stop or at least delay the zerg getting a 3rd base up.

As i said, the only weakness i can see would some sort of nydus play. But that's not very common and with good awareness and scouting ever that shouldn't be an issue
GinjaNinja.661 EU I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 14:47:44
October 24 2011 14:42 GMT
#53
Mech can be strong but I disagree with 2 things. Vikings is not at all cost effective vs muta magicboxing against thors. Vikings will get one or two shots off each which will do very low damage bcause they have no upgrades. Then when you are allready above the thors the vikings serve no purpose except for tickling the mutas. The only purpose of vikings vs mutas is to scare them away from attacking a turreted position. They can't actually win vs mutas themselves or do enough damage to justify the high cost of the unit.

Most terrans in masters counter the muta magicboxing with offensive turret placement and more importantly getting +mech weapon upgrades at an insane rate (ie going only weapons and no armor until 3-0). What this does is that the mutas simply take too much damage before they get in becuase the zerg can't match his mutas armor to those upgrades with all the other stuff he needs to spend gas on. Fast 3-0 is what killed mutas vs mech completely asnd you now see mostly roach/ling counter or alternatively roach/bane drops on tanks until they can get that huge broodlord army out.

Also if you play out your build as safely as you say in this guide you will allow the zerg to get 3 bases of full drones and you will yourself have a delayed natural. Your build relies heavily on actually killing 15+ drones to even able to compete with the zerg economically. Vs mech econ can really spiral out of control if no harass is done and you can just take the entire map which the terran can do nothing about.

Additionally any competent zerg knows that you either look to 2 base timing him with the mech or to take a third behind a small ammmount of units. Both those options makes zergs decision making easy cause he can just go for a huge ammount of units to stop the push/expand. And a mech terran on 2 base is extremely easy to take on once the zerg has allready crushed an army. Alternatively if you go for the third and zerg delays it properly he can himself go up to 4-5 bases safely and then just get everything at the same time.

I can see this working on abusive maps like xel'naga caverns or shattered close pos or any of the ridiculous beta style maps that I as a zerg have vetoed but not on a map when you have time to get your defense up.

Most zergs play a very solid anti helion defense now that also puts pressure back on expanding terrans (with inbase macro hatch etc). Either they go for the fast roach warren after the second queen and then they will have roaches out in time for the 4 first helions which they then use to delay your natural. While at the same time defending any all in counterpokes you try with helions with queens+spine+lings or they go for the extra queen that shuts down helion harass completely and guarantees a good midgame creep spread aswell as an early good drone count. Then they can go for the double expand have be on 5 hatches 3 queens in time for the earliest time you can push effectively.

The sheer unit production capabilities of zergs that play that style is enough to trounce any mech play that expands too slowly. You really are forced to deal huge damage with the helions or to take very fast expansions behind few units and hope that you can position / harass well enough that the zerg wont attack you in time.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
October 24 2011 18:17 GMT
#54
I agree that upgrading your infantry even if you go pure mech is a good idea. Early game or mid-game you may not have the resources for this, but getting at least stim, shield and 2/2 by late game is really beneficial.

What often happens when you go mech is that sooner or later your army will be wiped out, you will have lots of minerals, not enough gas and too little time to rebuild your army before they counter attack and wipe out your production facilities. Going mass marines while re-making your mech army will buy you time and is an excellent way of spending the excess minerals that you typically build up late game.
Blackknight232
Profile Joined July 2011
United States169 Posts
October 24 2011 22:11 GMT
#55
i want to just say THANK YOU VERY MUCH. OMG THIS BUILD ROCKS
Raiju
Profile Joined December 2007
Australia235 Posts
October 24 2011 22:46 GMT
#56
Not a good build imo. Also u say never go 3 orbitals if u are going marine tank, that's wrong.
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