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let me try to answer a few of your questions for your
first off
On October 22 2011 03:21 nOondn wrote:
The transition doesn't make sense, all the replays you didn't won becuase the transition but you crush the enermy with you mech ,then you switch to marine and said yeah i win coz the fucking marine right ? ,who need a marines with 0/0 and start upgrade in the late game ?
yeah That GM zerg is bad at zvt i beat him every times we fight,others zerg is bad that's all.they didn't scout at all , they didn't know how to deal with mech army, They did'nt send a drone to follow scv, they didn't take the advantage that you camping with 1st base so long (10-14 minute for 1st expo that lol) they just camping making units instead of drone/ 3rd,4th expo. etc...
"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "
this guy is either an idiot or just trolling because all his comments seem to indicate that he doesnt really know how to read carefully
i never once said that i won the game because of marines, but rather i have the option the key word being OPTION (i put that in bold and CAPS just for you) to transit into something that is heavily mobile and easier to produce in high quantities
and I guess you're blind because i never have 0/0 marines in the late game
never
On October 22 2011 05:27 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ???? they are actually cost efficient, lawl Did you see GSL terran counter Ultralisk with marines or Maruader ?
so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder
On October 22 2011 04:07 DarkCore wrote:
You never really describe when you get the third OC. You just say it depends on what pressure you do, and that's it. I looked at this build because I'm curious when/how you get it. Also, when do you get the starport? Do you always have it around, or make it at a specific time?
People have been complaining about your replays.If you've been winning so many games with this build, then the Zerg players you play must be getting better and better. Haven't you had any problems yet? Give replays of you losing games.
i get a starport after my 4th factory. there will hardly ever be a time where you will be low on resources (unless you have it all Q-ed up)
the problem is I haven't lost a game yet since using this build properly. as i've mentioned, the only reason you will lose with this build is if you get caught off guard by forgetting something, e.g. turrets, scans, getting caught unsieged, wrong unit comp, etc.
On October 22 2011 04:41 saaaa wrote:
yes i also think that the mech+bio style is really really strong...
i don't test it til now but i imagine that this would work pretty well:
-reactor hellion FE maybe with bunker or natural block
-2 fac with 1-2 Baracks to produce marines
- attack with normal hellions and maybe 4 tanks and 20+ Marines and maybe 1-2 medivac
- after that transition into TMM
maybe works but should you build more than the initinal 4 hellions or just keep them and integrate them into your "timing push" with maybe stim, siegemode and mediVacs?
I think this style is way harder for the zerg and more powerful than your mech into bio, which you explained in your first posts
i understand that most people like to do timing pushes but I'm a much more patient player.
also understand that most games when zerg scouts the reactor factory with their ling, they tend to go roaches and in most of my replays, if i had made a helion marine push, i would have gotten rolled over by roaches
most of the times the easiest way to combat helions and deter them is to get roaches and thats what most zerg players in my replays do
On October 22 2011 05:33 aebriol wrote:
A question:
Since the sickest, most insane, late game Terran army pretty much has to include ghosts as the counter to tier 3 and infestors, why aren't you including them? Not enough gas off 3 bases? Some other reason?
The composition and build looks really solid, I just wonder about the noticeable lack of ghosts - the only thing that imho can combat late late game 5 base zerg.
I am a zerg player mid masters EU, so just asking why?
if you take a look at the antiga and tal'darim altar game, even though the zergs are on 5 base compared to my 3 or 4 base, i am still able to demolish his army and take the game.
this is because the mech army itself is able to wipe out anything that walks the ground. i chose a transition to marines because it suits my style more than ghosts, and also because ghosts take a ridiculous amount of time to build
even against late game infestors, marines with medivacs, decent splitting micro and with tanks to shell on the infestors, you will never have to worry about losing your army
in most games, as you begin to push out with the mech army, most of the time what the zerg throws at you will get demolished, and they will switch to broodlords to try and destroy you, but you should have vikings out already which will be no problem
and because:
1. their army keeps getting crushed
2. their broodlords become useless
as the zerg keeps throwing units that die insanely quick to tanks, they run out of resources so quick that they can't even get a critical mass of ultras, and even if they were to get maybe 15 utlras (which i have yet to see) the mech army will kill at least 5-10 of them before it gets destroyed, and by the time the ultras reach my base there will be 60-80 marines
of course getting that many ultras without the gas is the key problem for zergs, and most of the time when ultras are out, the zerg bases across the map are being torn apart and there arent really more than 5 ultras out at a time
On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
i read all comments on this thread...
i agree that this will combine many strength of the race "terran" like
- early mass mule
- better army trading with mech style
BUT..
i think it is way better to focus earlier on the "standard" composition TMM maybe with Ghost and depending what your enemy is doint Thor+viking
1. you have better upgrades on your marines earlier...
2. with mech you cannot punish the zerg if he decides to do double expanding... cause you are very immobile
3. you say you bank a holy shit of minerals (3000?) sry but this is just ridicilous to bank this money just because you can transition "easily" in Bio+Tank. I call an "good transition" that is fluent and not just add 6 rax and add instant 6 reactors and 2 techlabs to research stim and combat... that not a "fluent and easy" transition for me
I'll try to address all your points:
1. i get the upgrades on my marines after the turret range upgrade but only if it doesnt affect my unit production, otherwise i will never have better upgrades on my marines than my tanks, remember that this is a preparation move for a transition
2. it doesnt matter if the zerg double expands. once your mech army reaches its critical mass of tanks thors and vikings, you can crush through any ground unit composition the zerg army throws at you
3. I don't think you understand the point i was trying to bring across. the reason i can bank so much minerals is because I'm trading more cost efficiently during army battles. I can bank this much because i dont have to replace my units as much
On October 22 2011 04:30 saaaa wrote:
In conclusion:
In my opinion it maybe work if you do your first "small" push with tanks+hellions and maybe you can force him into roach heavy play because you show your enemy your first mech units and then transition directly into Bio+Mech but i'm very unsure if this is a good way to play against Zerg, because you invest in upgrades that you don't use in the course of the match.
i dont need to force them into roach heavy play because generally they will go roach heavy anyway as you can see from the replays
and like i said i can invest in upgrades i possibly dont use in the match because my army trades are more cost effcient than the zergs, even if i didnt waste resources on upgrades i didnt use, i would have a huge bank which i wouldnt have used either way.
in a way, i could say that i could get every possible terran upgraded if i wanted and i would still be fine
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"last replay show that, your terrets guide is useless lol, YOU TELL US TO SCOUT EXACTY WHAT UNIT COMPOSITION ZERG IS , BUT WHEN YOU SEE ONLY SPIRE UP YOU JUST BUILD "10" TURRETS INSTANLY LOL "
you're pretty silly
watch replay 1 on antiga
here's what i mean by scout what the zerg composition is:
up to the point the spire has gone up, he has only gone mass ling with spines and has been collecting gas like a mad man, and yet he doesnt throw any banelings with lings to try and bust my wall, this coupled with the knowledge that hes definitely NOT going anything silly like Hydras indicates to me that hes going to be pretty muta heavy, which is the case where he gets 30 mutas
and immediately i drop the amount of turrets i think are sufficient at that point in time
you seem to enjoy dissing my turret guide so I'll point out something critical here:
because of 4 turrets in my base, a flock of 30 mutas came in and did absolutely not economical dmg to me at all, i may have lost a few 2 thors as they came out, but he lost way more mutas and killed no SCVs or hindered my production in anyway
edit: in replay 2, he sends his mutas into my base the first time around when i wasnt prepared and i lost 3 depots, and after that he sends more mutas to my base, loses 4 of them to turrets, takes heavy amounts of dmg on them and achieves no dmg at all
this is the kinda of muta deterrence im talking about
On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ???? they are actually cost efficient, lawl In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?
the fact is that when you go a heavy roach army, do you bother to get melee upgrades? by the time he even decides to get melee upgrades its too late already
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On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ???? they are actually cost efficient, lawl In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......?
In a world where the cracklings glitch out the ultralisks and you have one medivac for each marine.
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this guy is either an idiot or just trolling because all his comments seem to indicate that he doesnt really know how to read carefully
i never once said that i won the game because of marines, but rather i have the option the key word being OPTION (i put that in bold and CAPS just for you) to transit into something that is heavily mobile and easier to produce in high quantities
and I guess you're blind because i never have 0/0 marines in the late game
never
18 min in game is not late game ? i watch all replays dude
you guide said to start upgrade your marine after turret range,it mean you waste your mineral into the army that you didn't to use in that time but for the future. what if you get crush by the zerg army ? you need that money for build up the mech armys not for upgrade, if you want to play this way you need to turtle and that make zerg have more bases , you can't make a mistake to throwaway the armys in the mid game.The money that you have it not by having 3 OC(becuase you expo very late 10-14 minute in game) but you camping with out harass or some thing like that.
so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder
is any zerg go ultralisk with out infestor ? who play that
people not playing that way
mass ling + infestor transition to ultralisk/broodlord in late game
lingbling+muta -> infestor -> broodlord/ultralisk in late game
infestor is always in their position
so i confuse how you use mass marine counter ultralisk ? unless you got 3-4 thors to tank damage from ultralisk -_-.
the fact is that when you go a heavy roach army, do you bother to get melee upgrades? by the time he even decides to get melee upgrades its too late already
You play mech style and turtle,don't you think zerg have better economy than you ? they can upgrade like you upgrade.
you're pretty silly
watch replay 1 on antiga
here's what i mean by scout what the zerg composition is:
up to the point the spire has gone up, he has only gone mass ling with spines and has been collecting gas like a mad man, and yet he doesnt throw any banelings with lings to try and bust my wall, this coupled with the knowledge that hes definitely NOT going anything silly like Hydras indicates to me that hes going to be pretty muta heavy, which is the case where he gets 30 mutas
and immediately i drop the amount of turrets i think are sufficient at that point in time
you seem to enjoy dissing my turret guide so I'll point out something critical here:
because of 4 turrets in my base, a flock of 30 mutas came in and did absolutely not economical dmg to me at all, i may have lost a few 2 thors as they came out, but he lost way more mutas and killed no SCVs or hindered my production in anyway
edit: in replay 2, he sends his mutas into my base the first time around when i wasnt prepared and i lost 3 depots, and after that he sends more mutas to my base, loses 4 of them to turrets, takes heavy amounts of dmg on them and achieves no dmg at all
this is the kinda of muta deterrence im talking about
becuase you play mech first, you need a lot of turrets.but for a player who play MMT, 1000+ mineral for turrets upgrade and turrets is too much. MMT can't sit in base and camping like you do,MMT need invest mineral into armys to harass/cut zerg expo.So basicly 1-2 turrets and marine is cost efficient than 10 turrets.
and what about game on xelnaga ?
you build up to 10 turrets with out see any army composition ? can you tell me what a reason behind that ? lol
about your guide it doesn't make any sense you tell people "if you see many mutas, lets build more turrets?" lol
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On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
you guide said to start upgrade your marine after turret range,it mean you waste your mineral into the army that you didn't to use in that time but for the future. what if you get crush by the zerg army ? you need that money for build up the mech armys not for upgrade, if you want to play this way you need to turtle and that make zerg have more bases , you can't make a mistake to throwaway the armys in the mid game.The money that you have it not by having 3 OC(becuase you expo very late 10-14 minute in game) but you camping with out harass or some thing like that.
wow you are so dumb that its actually pretty damn funny, i guess you failed english comprehension at the pre-school level
in my guide, i stated to start marine upgrades after turret range if it doesnt hinder your mech army production or upgrades in anyway
read the bold ffs, or do you not understand what hinder means?
On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
is any zerg go ultralisk with out infestor ? who play that
people not playing that way
mass ling + infestor transition to ultralisk/broodlord in late game
lingbling+muta -> infestor -> broodlord/ultralisk in late game
infestor is always in their position
so i confuse how you use mass marine counter ultralisk ? unless you got 3-4 thors to tank damage from ultralisk -_-.
i can't even believe my eyes at how your stupidity knows no bounds
i state that your end game army after your thors get wiped out will consist of at least +3 weapons marines and + 3weapon tanks with vikings in case of brood lords
even if the tanks weren't in siege mode the sheer dps of the tanks and marines will destroy ultras easily
and what if they couple infestors with ultras? thats what the tanks are for
in the first place i dont even think you understand the simple fundamentals or mechanics of the game and youre just reading what you want to read and trolling
On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
You play mech style and turtle,don't you think zerg have better economy than you ? they can upgrade like you upgrade.
in the xel'naga game against praeterus or whatever his name is
he has 2/2 uprades for his roaches against my 3/0 tanks, and still it does nothing for him when i slow push to his base. did it matter that he was on 4 base and i was practically on 2? no it didnt
why? because I have the more cost efficient army
i find it amazing even after watching ALL the replays as you claim that you cannot identify how the zerg production mechanics worked, that because I was trading armies more cost efficiently, the zerg was blowing all his resources on remaking his army only to lose it, while i only had to continue to buffer mine slightly and keep pushing, where at the end of the day even on 5 base, he is running low on resources because he has to keep up production
so what kind of zerg doesnt make infestors to go with his ultras? the kind that doesnt have enough gas for it
On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
becuase you play mech first, you need a lot of turrets.but for a player who play MMT, 1000+ mineral for turrets upgrade and turrets is too much. MMT can't sit in base and camping like you do,MMT need invest mineral into armys to harass/cut zerg expo.So basicly 1-2 turrets and marine is cost efficient than 10 turrets.
well thank god this isnt a guide for MMT is it? topic derailed much?
On October 22 2011 15:30 nOondn wrote:
and what about game on xelnaga ?
you build up to 10 turrets with out see any army composition ? can you tell me what a reason behind that ? lol
about your guide it doesn't make any sense you tell people "if you see many mutas, lets build more turrets?" lol
it says to build a few extra turrets instead of just 1 or 2 to defend against muta harass, im pretty sure I've already stated the prominence of the turrets in the antiga replay
edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047¤tpage=9#164
as for dropping 10 turrets, there is no way that i drop 10 turrets INSTANTLY or at 1 go because that would just be ridiculous
either way, had i dropped 10 turrets, or 20 turrets, or maybe even 30 turrets, it wouldnt have matter much because i still had the more cost efficient army and I ended up having a huge bank anyway
turrets didnt cost me the game
my mech army didnt cost me the game
my bio upgrades didnt cost me the game
did i lose any of the games? no
did turtling on 3 base game? no?
unless I'm missing something here, it's as if you're going out of your way to tell me why I'm going to lose the game, when in reality I'm winning every single one of them
do yourself a favor:
1.do your research
2. open your eyes
3. understand what the meaning of cost efficient is
4. actually analyze the game
5. learn to comprehend english properly
do all of the above, and then come back when you actually have a solid argument, because everything comment you've made up to now has made you look like an even bigger idiot before the last
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so because you saw one match recently that has marauders killing ultras = automatically correct? you are not only extremely short sighted but narrow minded as well? marauders do kill ultras but they take a longer time to build, you cant build as many marauders as marines and ultras do insanes amount of dmg to marauder
Marauders are king against ultras. Just have to split your units, and kite them better. Marauders RAPE ultras, compared to marines that take like 100 shots to kill an ultra (number out of my ass)
With marauders in compo, you can stim and box and bounce to pick off hatches, structures, and even more important -- infestors.
and what if they couple infestors with ultras? thats what the tanks are for
Really? From my experience, it's like 50% ling, 25% uiltra, 25% infestor (out of my ass again) It's at least 6+ infestors, and with that many lings and probably banes... the sling ultra will trade effectively, especially if they get a fungal on those marines. Fungal rapes marines. Fungal hurts marauders, but doesn't kill.
When you see ultra tech, I get 4+ more raxes, and tech lab all of 'em for a marine marauder mix. Also, I get ghosts for ultras, and broods, because snipe makes easier work on ultras.
And that GM zerg... he wasn't quite so good. You only won because he lost his nat, and didn't take a third unti l14 minutes, and still sat on 3 gas, not 4, no tech up. 18 minutes now, nothing but 1-0 roaches... and no tech, third barely mining, 1 evo,
PS your macro is a bit shifty as well. Take a third, abuse the mech safety factor, and take a third earlier. You had 9 mules unused at end of game, 2 CCs not morphing into anything, no transition in sight, and only 3 facs. You should at that point have your mass raxes up, and be on 3 base taking a 4th with a strong arm PF. Abuse mech. Abuse PFs.
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Great guide. This is a strong strategy up to mid-masters.
Note that I didn't say that it was a strong strategy up to grandmasters though. This is a strategy I did and thought was quite good against mutalisk play.
However, zerg can go the other method. Infestor. I found myself unable to push and win fights in the open against roach/infestor. In the late game, it seems that roach/infestor/broodlord/(ultralisk) is a very tough composition to defeat.
[...]
But I guess your answer is to transition to marine/tank/viking. I guess that might work. But getting those marines up to +3 surely must be more gas intensive are difficult than is implied. :o
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One of your reasons for mech is:
-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons
But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways.
I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.
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On October 22 2011 16:35 Trump wrote:One of your reasons for mech is: Show nested quote +-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways. I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.
/agree
marine/tank and mech are both viable strats, but no matter which strat you go with, you need ghosts late game TvZ. You might be able to win games without ghosts.. but that's because the zerg is just bad to be honset. Maybe not "bad", but if you're both high masters / GM, if you don't get ghosts you're putting yourself at a severe disadvantage, and the only way you're going to win WITHOUT ghosts vs any lategame zerg who has any combo of infestor/brolord/ultras ... is by them doing something dumb.
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@iamjeffrey
I've never been put up against a strong combination like that because by the time it reaches the point they have ultras they dont have enough gas to produce more than 5 let alone produce infestors (already stated)
also why they dont have enough gas is because I've been slowly starving them out by taking out expansions rather than going for the heart of their tech (also stated already)
anyway, you like bio, i like mech. to each his own eh?
I'm not trying to force this onto anyone, I'd just thought I'd share, but if theres a certain fool who's gonna try to deface this guide because hes too silly to comprehend it then I'm gonna have to shoo him away
@trump
i've only managed to play against 1 GM zerg so far and it was a pretty shoddy game since he let me double bunker (maybe he thought i would over commit to it or something iono) but i basically got far ahead and rolled him over
i havent had a problem with any roach/infestor builds, when i scout out infestation pit instead of spire, i immediately cut production of thors and continue to pump out siege tanks and helions, there is no ground unit in the world possible for the zerg army combat against 15 +3 weapon siege tanks with thors BFH and helions to buffer
in any of the replays that the zerg goes ultra's he isnt able to sustain a suitable army to buffer them because he doesnt have the resources to do so
in relation to you marine upgrades question, no it is actually not that gas intensive, in the long run i will have so much gas left over that its actually funny
the key is to get the bio upgrades when you know that you have sufficient gas to continue your own mech production + upgrades
i played a game today against a zerg, and even though the majority of my mech army was caught unsieged and destroyed because i wasnt paying attention(like 60 supply's worth) i was still able to come back into it in the long run because of the superior efficiency of my army
if you guys have any questions, just watch some of the replays and take note of:
1. the cost efficiency of the mech army,
2. how much resources the zerg has wasted into reproducing his army compared to mine (units lost resources)
3. my bank
4. when i get my bio upgrades
5. how much gas i have as compared to how much i need
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I really like this build Logick, nice work!
Mech into Bio feels strange though...
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On October 22 2011 16:35 Trump wrote:One of your reasons for mech is: Show nested quote +-one of the stronger reasons why i favor mech over marine tank is that i dont have to get 2 separate upgrades. Vehicle weapons increase the power of my entire army compared to having to upgrade both marine weapons and armour + siege weapons But that's exactly what you're ending up doing in the late game transition anyways. I wrestled with this build and discovered that since I probably would transition to marine/tank anyways, I might as well start with it.
one of my other reasons for going mech is also the fact that marines are extremely vulnerable to banes as well as the fact that defensively they dont what it takes to defend muta harass without taking losses yourself
sure you can make 1 turret and sit 8 marines next to it but youre still going to lose to a ball of 15-16 mutas
in reality, marines trying to defend muta harass, u lose marines, and even if you dont, most of the time you end up forcing stims that keep you low on medivac energy, something that although might seem like a small thing, ends up being a small loss that piles up on your end
and there is a vast difference between going marine tank in the early game compared to marine tank in the late game, that difference being, by the time it hits late game, my opponent does not spot the mass marine production until its already in his face, and there wont even be enough time / let alone gas for him to make banelings to counter this
edit: i think im starting to get a grasp of the misconception people are having here so I'll try to clear it out straight away.
when i say mech into end game bio, it really means that by the end game, your mech army would have demolished most of the zergs, and what ever you have lost you can easily remax with the bio to take away the rest of the game rather than wait forever to remax with mech units
so rather than wait maybe 5-6 mins to remax and take the rest of the game, i can just do it in 1-2 mins with marines
does that make any sense?
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On October 22 2011 08:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 05:22 iAmJeffReY wrote:On October 22 2011 05:13 Snusdosa wrote:On October 21 2011 18:46 nOondn wrote:
WTF marine to counter ultralisk ???? they are actually cost efficient, lawl In what world are marines good against 5/3 ultras, and 3/3 crack lings.......? In a world where the cracklings glitch out the ultralisks and you have one medivac for each marine.
lol reminds me of a game where I had 10 ultras and a few lings left, and he had 20 marines and like 6-7 medivacs. Both sides fully upgraded
I lost horribly lolololol. Don't think I killed a single marine lol.
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Nice work logick - it amazes me that all these negative posters are repeatedly picking apart parts of the strategy rather than looking at it as a whole. It's easy to point out things out of context and it reminds me of political debates here in the US. Well written and as you said, when executed properly with proper scouting/info, it really becomes a powerful strat.
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...I did watch the replays. I chose the GM zerg. Who only took 3 gas. Didn't take a third. Didn't tech out of roaches. Didn't even upgrade his roaches.
All I'm saying is, that one game is an awful example. It wasn't because you starved him. The game was won when you took out his natural, and he didn't try to counter at all.
And I like bio? No. I like winning. I open mech usually ALL TvZ, but not this way. I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.
You didn't really starve him out, he starved himself out by throwing roaches away and not expanding...
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but from your statement it seems to indicate that that was the only replay u watched?
that one isnt a prime example of the build at all, but rather an example of the opener an how safe it is to get a 3rd OC so fast.
so if you said you did watch the replays and then only mention that one replay then well.. =/ i dunno what to say
1 replay isnt indicative of the entire build
i even go out of my way to give some highlights of the replay im surprised you dont mention the 3rd one at all
On October 23 2011 02:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.
which is exactly why i say to each his own
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On October 23 2011 05:50 Logick wrote:but from your statement it seems to indicate that that was the only replay u watched? that one isnt a prime example of the build at all, but rather an example of the opener an how safe it is to get a 3rd OC so fast. so if you said you did watch the replays and then only mention that one replay then well.. =/ i dunno what to say 1 replay isnt indicative of the entire build i even go out of my way to give some highlights of the replay im surprised you dont mention the 3rd one at all Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 02:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:
I double reactor hellion into 5 rax 2 fac 1 port marine tank transition after.
which is exactly why i say to each his own
...because it's against a high diamond zerg, I chose not to watch. Pardon me for not wanting to waste time seeing a strat executed against someone that can't even execute their own race well yet.
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On October 21 2011 19:37 Logick wrote:
@hlider Ah well I don't rmb the rankings of all the players I play against and I don't invest as much time as you to argue for the sake of it
That being said logick is the current account I ptactice new builds on while I play on my othwr account Pesi
As for taking a late third.. I do so to be safe and just because I can.. I assume that you watched most of the replays so you should see that by the time I take a 4th the game is pretty much ending
As for the marine play its for me to replenish my army supply quickly and strongly compared to making 7 facts
But I guess u overlooked that point when u just look for stuff to disagree qith for the sake of it
Well you can play your style and ill play mine.. Just thought I'd share
You can only do that because your playing against bad players who makes tons of mistakes.
And again you just completely fail to understand my arguments. Sure you could disagree with me, but you dont understand the points I am trying to make. I kinda expect this is because your kinda a medium skilled players who dont have a lot of succes at sc2 and want to feel good makings guides. However this just shows your lack of game understanding, and you aren't open minded when better players tell you about the weakness of your game plan. Now I dont expect you to ever agree with me, but if you actually want to make good guides at the time, you ahve to keep playing a lot. Watch a lot of games and reflect even more upon the games, and get to at least GM SEA or midmaster EU/NA before you can make guides that are universally true (and not just work because your opponents dont understand the game/ makes mistakes).
Btw I dont think your more stupid or worse than the average low master/diamond sea player, I just think you overrate your self and your abilites to analyze games and understand the complexities.
I am done posting in this btw. No point really, as you never seem to understand my the logic behind my arguments, and most other people (besides you) agree with me.
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It's a pretty good write-up. I think you laid out some very good tips for lower ranked players. High ranked players might disagree with your late game strategy, but if it's working, that's what matters.
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Aside from the fact that you may have a lot of minerals to dump, why not just keep making Mech? You already have 3/3 or at least 2/2. Also a misconception people seem to have is that bio is a lot easier to replenish than mech. This may be true in some cases, but not enough to make such a generalization. Let's compare Thors to marines. The equivalent of getting 1 factory 150/100 is about the same as a barracks with reactor 200/50. Let's talk about maxing to a 200/200 army as soon as possible. If you mass thors, that's 6 supply every 60 seconds, so 1 supply per 10 seconds. For marines, it's 2 supply every 25 seconds, or 1 supply every 12.5 seconds. Even with the reactors, marines are still slightly slower to replenish. Really it is only the tank that take a long time to replenish, 3 supply at 45 seconds which is 33% slower than Thors, or take 50% longer. Let alone the fact that tanks are weak until you get a big number of them, especially because it would take a long time to rebuild an army if you lose your army [again].
Why not dump those minerals into more expansions as you attack with your mech army, and keep making mech? Another thing to consider is that Hellions are similar to Zerglings -- during a fight, you can quickly reinforce by making a mass wave of hellions. They may not be that supply efficient, but they reinforce very quickly and can dump those minerals and will be able to deal with any quick zergling remax that the zerg might do. They build a bit slower than Marines, but you already have the mech upgrades and hellions can get back to your army faster.
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EPT
