|
This is a very important build.
One disappointing thing is that most Toss don't know their stalker timings that well. So they leave BEFORE seeing the gas on 23 and think HARD FOUR GATE!!!.
Timing is very tough to get down. Frankly, I've never hit it perfectly :p. I usually proxy the 24 pylon somewhere on the map because it's a good backup if my probe gets jacked, or he catches me w/ 2 zeals + stalker.
Plus, if you proxy the 24 pylon, you can engage the 3 stalkers (if you see 3 stalker rush) and get back map control if he stops the proxy 25 pylons.
To tell you the truth, I actually don't like getting too far ahead. So sometimes just pressure with 4 super fast stalkers is all I want. I mean, if you have seconds with 3 more stalkers than him... he's crippled and there's no game to be played. If you just show 4 stalkers and fake the 4 gate, you can chrono probes like made and tech and play a long game with a little lead, but you can still play a close macro game.
I actually skimmed the oz pvps yesterday and noticed this build. Good write up.
|
This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D
|
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=236578
Here is a replay vs what looked like a 3stalker rush but was a faster 2 stalker off of 2 gates.. something I haven't really seen much of. I don't really do a lot of direct damage with the push but I force a couple of sentries (which I then cancel out by making 2 of my own which I didn't need O_O) and have a 2 probe lead once the rush is over. If nothing else, this build forces a big defensive reaction since they see you warp in so quickly and usually assume you're going to all in.
|
On October 10 2011 08:20 iSTime wrote:
Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
I start thinking the same. I've tried this build a bit now on masters level and I think pushing vs 3 stalker opening hurts me more than if i would just sit back and enjoy my faster gas and contine probe production with cb (they need to cut probes to get their 3 stalker rush working as well, that's where you can catch up in eco). They usually see my early gate (11gate) and cb out their stalkers, so usually he can deny my units quite handily. I didn't think about just gas stealing him in that situation, will do that, thanks. Although some people take their 2nd gas as well with 3 stalker opening to deny gas steal, but then again it should be fine since it delays their next pylon and probe production even further. This way I can at least get into a sound midgame with good eco and tech to whatever my plan is.
|
thx for the guide. i was a little lost in PvP again (after the Immortal buff / blink nurf) and that Tinman built looks like fun 
I´ll try that definitely! :D
Cheers
|
heya thanks for another nice [G] thread!
Can u maybe add a replay were u actually do what you are discribing?^^
They are all kinda wonkey/cannonrush/"fuckups" 
Thanks
edit:
just redread the thread again and saw your planing on doing it.
thx again
|
So I was doing this build in YABOT, and as far as I can tell, you wont be able to stop a gas steal and still get everything on time, because you have to send out your zealot and stalker right after they spawn--which isn't enough time to kill the stolen gas--won't you not killing your stolen gas geyser be kind of mysterious to the enemy?
|
On October 17 2011 11:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
So I was doing this build in YABOT, and as far as I can tell, you wont be able to stop a gas steal and still get everything on time, because you have to send out your zealot and stalker right after they spawn--which isn't enough time to kill the stolen gas--won't you not killing your stolen gas geyser be kind of mysterious to the enemy?
If he is gas stealing that early, your rush is gonna be that more effective, since his 1st/2nd stalker will be few seconds later (seconds = inches = adds up yo).
|
I tried this for the first time on ladder and my timings were sloppy and only had 5 seconds before his 4 gates kicking in. Managed to win because he expanded and went for a robo (probably thinking he was way more ahead than he actually was), but yeah. Gonna go into some AI games and just refine the timing. Thanks for the guide Alej :D
|
Really cool build but its not so much better against cannonrush then a 12 gate 
I think the build is really good because you still have the second gas up when you see you wont break him.
I think the best counter to this is a defensivly 12 gate -> 4 gate or an agressive 4 gate but i really have to test this out
|
On October 17 2011 12:43 Fubnub wrote:Really cool build but its not so much better against cannonrush then a 12 gate I think the build is really good because you still have the second gas up when you see you wont break him. I think the best counter to this is a defensivly 12 gate -> 4 gate or an agressive 4 gate but i really have to test this out
What?
You've pretty much stated everything opposite to the OP, with no facts...
|
On October 12 2011 06:49 TrueNorth16 wrote:
This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D
How does this work against terran? It seems like almost every terran on ladder walls in now.
|
@Alej,
I have been using this on YABOT and ladder. I can hit the 5:22 - 5:23 warp-in about 80% of the time on YABOT (still some work to be done).
In real games I'm much later obv, sometimes by 15-20 seconds (poor multi task). I often get these kind of delays when I'm micro-ing zealot/stalker, and slip up on the CB.
What I have noticed though, is that with maps that have un-even minerals (take metalopolis as a map with 'even' minerals, you can do 4x perfect mineral patches). I can't get anywhere close to 5:22, even on YABOT.
Is 5:22 still achievable on maps like TD altar, or shakuras etc, ones that don't have the standard 4-close patches that you can do a 3-3 split on @ start of game?
Hope you get what I mean about the mineral patches, it's hard to describe.
Secondly, against 3 stalker openings - where you don't scout him last (so you can 100% confirm 3 stalker).
Do you think It's ok to drop 1 pylon in a safe, but close area, do your 3x stalker warp-in and then attack? Or should I not even bother, and just power probes/tech (like you state in OP).
After watching some replays of my opponents, I feel I still have a 15second++ window to do damage right after I warp-in my 3 stalkers, since they're still waiting on WG tech, and only have 3 stalkers.
Thoughts?
Ref: Playing @ 1300 masters.
|
Sounds interesting, brings back memories of the korean 4 gate when that was pretty much the same goal, to get WG faster to punish your oponent during the few second that is WG was not finish. I'll give it a try, thx to have taken the time to make this guide.
ACEhellRush
|
On October 17 2011 20:01 Trusty wrote:
@Alej,
I have been using this on YABOT and ladder. I can hit the 5:22 - 5:23 warp-in about 80% of the time on YABOT (still some work to be done).
In real games I'm much later obv, sometimes by 15-20 seconds (poor multi task). I often get these kind of delays when I'm micro-ing zealot/stalker, and slip up on the CB.
What I have noticed though, is that with maps that have un-even minerals (take metalopolis as a map with 'even' minerals, you can do 4x perfect mineral patches). I can't get anywhere close to 5:22, even on YABOT.
Is 5:22 still achievable on maps like TD altar, or shakuras etc, ones that don't have the standard 4-close patches that you can do a 3-3 split on @ start of game?
Hope you get what I mean about the mineral patches, it's hard to describe.
Secondly, against 3 stalker openings - where you don't scout him last (so you can 100% confirm 3 stalker).
Do you think It's ok to drop 1 pylon in a safe, but close area, do your 3x stalker warp-in and then attack? Or should I not even bother, and just power probes/tech (like you state in OP).
After watching some replays of my opponents, I feel I still have a 15second++ window to do damage right after I warp-in my 3 stalkers, since they're still waiting on WG tech, and only have 3 stalkers.
Thoughts?
Ref: Playing @ 1300 masters.
for optimizing the WG timings, I think it's best to base it off of other things that you can observe. IE I think one of the cb's comes after the stalker, one comes after you put down gas etc. yes a lot of the time their WG will be much later than yours. The 12 seconds that I speak of in the OP is against an EXTREMELY fast 4gate (4 cb on nexus, 12g/16core etc). Typically, most people get it much later while they're doing greedier builds and relying on their zealot/stalker/stalker or zealot/stalker/sentry to defend at this juncture. You definitely have a leg up on them after your 1st warp-in and significantly so after the 2nd warp-in. just be careful of sentry
|
This is a great build. Really abuses the current metagame where everyone is just doing whatever builds. I still have to work on my timings though, I get the CC out by 2.31-2.32 but I usually end up warping in about 10-15 seconds later that optimal. Is this purely due to chrono boost usage?
|
On October 18 2011 07:47 Logros wrote:
This is a great build. Really abuses the current metagame where everyone is just doing whatever builds. I still have to work on my timings though, I get the CC out by 2.31-2.32 but I usually end up warping in about 10-15 seconds later that optimal. Is this purely due to chrono boost usage?
Most likely. It's really hard to get all 5 on the chrono boost in a real game where you are microing your scouting probe and zealot-stalker as opposed to practicing vs ai and being able to monitor chronoboost much more exclusively. Try linking different parts of the build to times when you should chronoboost or just keep an eye on the top left notifier thing (if you have that on; i put it on when I started trying this build).
|
On October 17 2011 16:56 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:49 TrueNorth16 wrote:
This is a fantastic build, thank you for posting it. I started using it last night and have gone 15-4 on the ladder (high platinum/low-mid diamond opponents). It actually has a lot of utility against all three races; I used it regardless of the match-up. The ability to apply so much early pressure works very well against more than just Protoss.
The four games I lost were twice to Protoss, once to Terran and once to Zerg. All the losses were due to my own errors, specifically timing errors.
Against Protoss, I had trouble getting my proxy pylons established and allowed both opponents to establish their Warpgates, and my initial force was crushed both times. Correcting this will be a matter of better timing and hiding my pylons better.
The Terran loss was a pure macro error - I managed to push inside their base, destroy half their forces, a barracks, two add-ons and two supply depots before I was repelled. Unfortunately my macro slipped and I made zero workers during this time, despite having an excess of minerals. Terran stayed even on me with economy, used mules to fund repeated counter-attacks while he was expanding. I had Blink by this point and managed to repel 4 waves of MM attacks, but he eventually broke through due to his economic lead.
Versus Zerg, my proxy pylons were picked off before I could warp in and I made too many Zealots...I was watching the Stephano/Kiwikaki game last night and adapted this build slightly so that I was constantly producing zealots while Warpgate was researching, but the ball of Zealots got surrounded on the way over and I couldn't reinforce due to my proxy pylons getting taken out.
All in all, I think this build has a tremendous amount of utility against all three races - at least at my level. I'm sure high diamond/masters Zerg/Terran players would have an easier time fending it off.
I didn't always win on the first push, but I was always able to take out an expo (Zerg) or a lot of opposing units, allowing me to continue boosting economy and transition into a different build.
The OP was definitely right about two things - your timing has to be PERFECT or close to, and this concerns both building/warpgate timing and proxy pylon placement. Secondly, this build just annihilates any kind of 1-Gate Robo play. It's quite satisfying to have your opponents swear at you for 4-Gating and then you tell them you were 3-Gating them.
Anyway, thanks for posting this build, it may be just what I need to get into Diamond. :D How does this work against terran? It seems like almost every terran on ladder walls in now.
Well, this may just be in my experience and at my ladder level (high plat-low diamond) but a lot of Terran players just don't have the units early enough to hold, and you can just blow throw their wall-off with your zealot + 3 stalkers + second warp-in.
|
|
|
I have seen hero do a variation of this in his PvPs, but he proxies his 24 food pylon in a pretty safe place that can be used as a back up in case you can't secure the pylon(s) at the ramp. You run the risk of losing that pylon after the rush, but you guarantee your first aggressive warp-in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
