EPTI wanted to ask how should u respond if you see them chrono'ing their gateway for an early 1 zeal 2 Stalker push?
[G] PvP 11gate into 3gate press - Page 6
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Jev
South Africa3 Posts
I wanted to ask how should u respond if you see them chrono'ing their gateway for an early 1 zeal 2 Stalker push? | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
jev- if they cb the stalker that's fine; they'll have their wg done even later. if they have faster stalkers you might need to warp 2 pylons on the low ground instead of 1 high and 1 low if you can't get up the ramp without taking too many hits. | ||
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TechnoSchaman
United States156 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
http://replayfu.com/download/85P8Ft it is vs 3 stalker rush into robo. Because my wg is much faster than his, I can do enough damage to merit staying around after the first 2 warp-ins. the pressure nets me a lofty probe lead which snowballs out of control. | ||
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ShadowDeath
Germany3 Posts
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T Well, I do it on 4 player maps as is in the build. On 2 player maps, I scout on 12 for proxies but then send it back to mine. Give that a shot! Only slows it down by a little bit. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On October 28 2011 08:03 Alejandrisha wrote: Well, I do it on 4 player maps as is in the build. On 2 player maps, I scout on 12 for proxies but then send it back to mine. Give that a shot! Only slows it down by a little bit. I personally try to put my first pylon and gate somewhere close to my nexus to save mining time, but on that side of my base where I can get vision if there is some canon rush coming. The pylon on 14 supply follows a similar concept and goes to the position in my base where i can overlook the most common 2 gate proxy position in my base. By doing that I've seen basically every proxy gate and canon rush so far without needing an early scout. If his probe behaves somehow suspicious I will do an extra check however (ofc he could plant proxy gates somewhere else in front of your base etc). But however you want to do it, I really recommend thinking about the placement of your first buildings in your base, you don't really want to lose much mining time and plant them somehow close to your nexus while still being able to spot some incoming cheese. You can also put your pylon on 14 at your entrance (same position you would start your pylon vs zerg if you open one base) to see incoming probes and sneaky behaviour. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 28 2011 12:35 Fairwell wrote: I personally try to put my first pylon and gate somewhere close to my nexus to save mining time, but on that side of my base where I can get vision if there is some canon rush coming. The pylon on 14 supply follows a similar concept and goes to the position in my base where i can overlook the most common 2 gate proxy position in my base. By doing that I've seen basically every proxy gate and canon rush so far without needing an early scout. If his probe behaves somehow suspicious I will do an extra check however (ofc he could plant proxy gates somewhere else in front of your base etc). But however you want to do it, I really recommend thinking about the placement of your first buildings in your base, you don't really want to lose much mining time and plant them somehow close to your nexus while still being able to spot some incoming cheese. You can also put your pylon on 14 at your entrance (same position you would start your pylon vs zerg if you open one base) to see incoming probes and sneaky behaviour. yeah of course your 1st pylon and gate go to see the cannon rush but on xel naga proxy gates will be in the nat or in your base, not below the ledge | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
So I'm really slowly transitioning into this. By slowly, I mean, 0 wins 7 losses. Turns out I can't just expand after killing half his probes (with 3 gateway production, or 3gateway robo production), accounting for first two losses. Then probe surrounds when I'm not careful on the attack. And all this while not building probes at home =(. http://drop.sc/49904 (Both sides Masters) Latest, a bad engagement for me, bad judgement call on the late expand (I should've been pursuing end-game tech more rapidly). Alej, if you find anything else glaring let me know. I'm still hopeful another 10-15 games will clear up what kinda followups are best in the 1) Did heavy probe damage, lost most army 2) Did heavy probe damage, lost very little army 3) Did only a little army and little probe damage, kept army. Expo has been kicking me in the butt for first 2 (immortals and/or just lots of gateway) Love the intial aggression, hate how difficult the adjustment is to a superaggressive build that has a planned eco lead. Protoss, beware that aside from initial attack, its gonna take a little brain rewiring to get rest right. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 28 2011 18:31 Danglars wrote: This style is so hard to adjust to. Feels like you're 4gating (So my brain is shutting down the probe building section) but you're not. You're getting an econ or army lead (or both) and transitioning into some new game state that isn't really known. I'm talking about my fellow protosses that have been doing robo builds (Solid econ, solid timing against expos, rather defensive starting out) or attacking builds (less than solid econ, rather offensive). So I'm really slowly transitioning into this. By slowly, I mean, 0 wins 7 losses. Turns out I can't just expand after killing half his probes (with 3 gateway production, or 3gateway robo production), accounting for first two losses. Then probe surrounds when I'm not careful on the attack. And all this while not building probes at home =(. http://drop.sc/49904 (Both sides Masters) Latest, a bad engagement for me, bad judgement call on the late expand (I should've been pursuing end-game tech more rapidly). Alej, if you find anything else glaring let me know. I'm still hopeful another 10-15 games will clear up what kinda followups are best in the 1) Did heavy probe damage, lost most army 2) Did heavy probe damage, lost very little army 3) Did only a little army and little probe damage, kept army. Expo has been kicking me in the butt for first 2 (immortals and/or just lots of gateway) Love the intial aggression, hate how difficult the adjustment is to a superaggressive build that has a planned eco lead. Protoss, beware that aside from initial attack, its gonna take a little brain rewiring to get rest right. most likely at the end of the rush, even if you kill 10 probes, he should have more units than you. At this point you play very defensively because as long as you have sentries, his higher army count won't allow him to kill you (this is why i don't recommend this on tal'darim). In the meantime, he can't really make units; he has to cb out probes and probably tech. You can expand, but not immediately after. Wait for your econ lead to give you a units/tech lead and then you may make the decision to safely expand, or just go for a 1 base play. i'll watch your specific rep edit: i recommend the replay i just posted; it does a good job of demonstrating this concept | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
On October 28 2011 03:03 Alejandrisha wrote: here's a pretty good replay for the build http://replayfu.com/download/85P8Ft it is vs 3 stalker rush into robo. Because my wg is much faster than his, I can do enough damage to merit staying around after the first 2 warp-ins. the pressure nets me a lofty probe lead which snowballs out of control. Your warpgate wasn't much faster than his-- he did an 11gate too! I think you were extremely lucky that his build had a huge flaw... the third pylon was too early. His second stalker was a couple of seconds late and third was 10 seconds late. Worst of all, his third gateway was late as a result of that pylon and not in sync with warpgate research completing. If he didn't mess this up, you would have walked up his ramp and met 3 stalkers straight away. If he built his third gateway earlier you would have both had the same production facilities kicking in at the same time. He would have the army advantage and you wouldn't have done any damage whatsoever + lost two pylons. It's funny that his build is probably one of the few that will beat yours outright, but a few mistakes in execution completely flips the outcome. Thanks for posting the replay though, I hadn't seen an 11-gate 3 stalker rush. I think I'm going to steal his build but do it right :D | ||
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Lemonayd
United States745 Posts
Can somebody help me refine how I should've defended that? It's a game on xel naga where I checked for the proxy right away with my 15 scout. I canceled the core immediately and put up a second gate. Didn't work out for me, so any tips at all would be great. | ||
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Mstring
Australia510 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:55 CaptainHaz wrote: Found out this is basically auto loss vs a proxy 2 gate today T.T I'm not so sure about that, I've beaten proxy 2gate more than I've lost to it. I could see if they hide zealots for an exceptionally long time it could be a problem but a little probe micro and 1gate stalker seems to do pretty well against it. http://drop.sc/50742 + Show Spoiler + This game is against a map hacker who proxy 2gates at my natural and I don't scout it until zealots come into my main. It's a sloppy game but I win. http://drop.sc/51305+ Show Spoiler + This game I have a good feeling it's a proxy or cannon rush because of his scout timing and it turning around like it's trying to hide, (~2:11 would be a reasonable time for a pylon scout getting to my base 2nd try but there would be no reason to juke back if that was the case, and hardly anyone pylon scouts in pvp with good intentions Regardless I scout for proxy after pylon instead of core but it only ends up hurting me as I don't find anything. His reveal comes a little early and it would've been harder if he had waited until 3 zealots but I still think you can just win the game with 1gate stalker and good control. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 30 2011 11:19 Lemonayd wrote: http://replayfu.com/r/vVPTTm Can somebody help me refine how I should've defended that? It's a game on xel naga where I checked for the proxy right away with my 15 scout. I canceled the core immediately and put up a second gate. Didn't work out for me, so any tips at all would be great. First some general build stuff: You're a little slow on your start. You start your first probe at 0:03 and then move your probes. You'll notice your opponent's probe production is about 2 seconds ahead of yours. If you're not doing it already I recommend holding your 'e' key down during the loading screen and having your mouse roughly in the center of the screen so you can just click your nexus to start building your probe asaply. Second your gateway is late it starts at 1:35 and should start at 1:25 on xel'naga, or at least before 1:30. This is because you accidentally queued up a 12th probe. Third you start your gas a bit too early, you can wait until 14. I rally my 13th probe to my gas and build it on 14 and the economy works out basically perfectly. Fourth you start your core on 16 instead of 15. You built 1 too many probes before the core. This is kind of hard to notice because of the late gate. Your probe also needs to be johnny on the spot with the core timing. You need a probe pulled before the gateway is done warping-in preferably having pressed 'b' and spamming 'y' while clicking on the ground to build your core immediately. Now for dealing with the proxy: I think your building placement needs to be a little tighter first of all either pull it back to the top or the bottom gas and keep it all together with a small hallway that you can funnel his zealots through in case he does proxy gate you. It helps for fighting with less units and probes and helps defend pylons. Pylons are juicy targets for proxy gates and yours are very exposed. The proxy pylon in his base isn't going to do much for you. Better to keep your buildings powered. If your choice is to fight with a later 2nd gateway you need to pull workers off gas immediately. You need to react more quickly putting your 2nd gate as well, you spot the proxy and 2:40 (before you put the core actually) but notice it at 2:47 but don't cancel your core until 3:00. That's almost a chrono boosted zealot of production lost in reaction time. You need to pull way back with your zealots and not engage until he forces you to and then do so with enough probes helping to tip the scales of being down in zealots. You had 5 more probes than he did so you can afford to be not mining with a around that many of them. I think the better choice, if you fix all the build order stuff, is to embrace your ultra fast core and get 1gate chrono'd stalkers. You can have a zealot, stalker and ~17 probes to engage against his first 3 zealots with. I think if you get to ~4 stalkers you can just go kill all his probes and then come back and clean up his zealots. Remember you can always get an extra 50 gas for another stalker by cancelling warpgate tech. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
 . The great thing is that it's not all in at all and you can always pull back after you've done some damage. | ||
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
 ill post a replay later but it seems they always have more units than you when you try to put the pylon up | ||
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flyguy
United States45 Posts
On November 01 2011 18:33 ProxyKnoxy wrote: This build never works for me ill post a replay later but it seems they always have more units than you when you try to put the pylon upYour timings are off then. You should have a stalker and a zealot just like him. You should be fighting his stalker and zealot which distracts him long enough to get the pylon's set up. If he tries to focus down on the probe you will atleast get a pylon on the low ground and also have the advantage now because now you'll be ahead on units. | ||
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sloppyknoll
6 Posts
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