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Canada13427 Posts
On April 22 2012 13:48 Skyro wrote:
Just FYI you'll get slightly more gas income by pulling the 3rd probe off of gas and putting it in your 2nd assimilator since the 3rd probe on gas is slightly less efficient than the first 2 probes on gas.
Also what do you do if you get your gas stolen? It doesn't seem like you have to time to kill it and still hit your timing at their ramp, so do you just ignore it? And what do you do with the freed up minerals? An extra probe or 2 or a 4th gate?
Whenever I do this build, I find that if they steal my gas and take their own there are a few things that impact my decisions (im not high level player mind you but PvP is my best matchup)
If they take my gas before they take their second gas I just go and attack as usual since I know they won't have any fast tech to help hold the rush (their 2nd gas is later than normal, and they will run out of sentries eventually). If they don't run out of sentries and always FF then I know that they didn't tech much at all and if they did they have a tech building doing nothing.
I usually with the extra minerals (if they take my gas after taking their own, opening better tech options to them) make a zealot from the gateway and rally it to the assimilator after my stalker comes out. This doesn't impact my timing at their ramp too much and often they have an early sentry which prevents my probe from placing a high ground pylon right away so I put just one pylon down at the ramp in this case. They usually have sentries with bad dps hitting the pylon so I don't need a second one if I cant get the high ground pylon down thanks to an early FF.
If they take my gas and I don't see their 2nd gas at any point, I'll just kill the gas and I don't usually attack ESPECIALLY if I only see 2 pylons in his base and chronoboost pooling. I've lost a few games continuing with my 3 gate only to find a fast or defensive 4 gate waiting for me. With late 2nd gas, I have a hard time defending a 4 gate since I can't really afford sentries and have no tech back at home. The other guy then dictates the game, he can expo and deny scouting, they can be aggressive, they can contain w/e they want all because I have less production and no tech to help me out of a pinch.
I could be wrong though 
Whenever I do see 3 pylons Ill take the approach with a zealot after stalker rallied to my stolen assimilator, but I won't commit the initial warp ins if they let me up the ramp. I scout with my push and if I see zealot, 2 stalkers and 4 gates then I just head home and make a sentry ASAP in case they have a proxy and counter really quick after I force a warp in at their base.
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On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote:
Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins.
Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated.
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On May 01 2012 14:30 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote:
Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins. Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated.
Also it's worth mentioning that Axslav on his stream today said something along the lines of it being a good build, because you get aggressive scouting, yet you aren't completely screwed if you don't do a lot of damage.
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On May 01 2012 14:46 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 14:30 mahi29 wrote:On January 14 2012 01:13 Excludos wrote:On January 14 2012 01:06 quickclickz wrote:
Dunno what took me so long to find something like this but I'll it the second I get home and will probably end up thanking you anyways so here it is in advance. My PvP win rate is so bad that I don't even remember the last time i won (not exaggerating). Thank you so much for this and seeing as I'm a plat player I'll do 20 runs on yacob before I even try to do it on ladder. Thanks Sorry to break it to you, but this build doesn't really work as good as it used to. Sure it can be used for the occasional cheesy win, but it wont raise your winrate exceptionally on the ladder (not if you're nearing master level at least). edit: Just to make it clear I'm not just talking trash. This used to be my gotobuild in PvP for the longest time. I've stopped using it when I realized it had started giving me a lot more losses than wins. Why do you say that it doesn't work as well as it used to? I understand that the secondary ramps pose a problem but are there any other reasons? I'm thinking of adopting this as my goto build in PvP because I want something micro intensive, so I'm sorta curious as to why you think its outdated. Also it's worth mentioning that Axslav on his stream today said something along the lines of it being a good build, because you get aggressive scouting, yet you aren't completely screwed if you don't do a lot of damage.
Yeah, I remember hearing/watching that and I looked up the guide for this. Thats why I'm wondering whether its still a viable build. Though i guess, if Axslav says its good, it should be fine for a plat player
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so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose.
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On May 01 2012 16:00 Grampz wrote:
so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose.
Risky how, if scouted?
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On May 01 2012 16:55 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:00 Grampz wrote:
so someone just used this build vs me 3 games in a row. Super duper risky if scouted, which it will get scouted... But it also has its benefits, and punishes players who also play risky i suppose. Risky how, if scouted?
in my opinion, gas steal. if it's a really early scout, they can opt for a faster-than-usual 3 stalker rush with faster gas to prevent stealing while trying to steal yours. in that case, i suggest refraining from letting the pylons finish or even starting more than 1 as a feint.
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Been trying out this build for a while and it has gotten me out of silver finally!
Anyways simple micro tricks for other low APM players such as myself.
1. Rally your first zealot to the center of the map.
2. Once your zealot pops out, rally your first gate to your zealot as you start your first stalker.
3. Once your stalker pops out, set your zealot to attack move the top of your opponents ramp.
This will make your Zealot and Stalker come up your opponents ramp in the perfect formation as fast as possible.
You are now free to put down Gate 2 and 3 without microing your units much. You are now free to control your scouting probe so that you can put that proxy pylon up his ramp easily.
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I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build.
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On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build.
Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss.
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On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss.
Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol.
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On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol.
You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
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Canada13427 Posts
On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
And its fair to say reaper tech lab fe is pretty bad. I have gone 1 gate fe, killed stuff on low ground with 1 z 1 stalkers and then follow up 3 gated with chrono stalkers before WG finishes and won.
Unless they go Bunker low ground THEN CC, the tech lab fe does pretty poorly. Just rally your 2nd stalker to your mineral line and the reaper can't hurt you.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Thank god I found this thread again, I remember reading it before and forgot to add it to my build folder.
Really cool, especially because players on ladder are playing greedy Robo builds a lot, anything that can punish that and avoid Collosus wars is a good thing
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On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly.
Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though.
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On August 15 2012 14:47 Havik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly. Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though.
I don't want to be that guy but I don't think you are right. I don't see this working against a Terran even if he is doing a 1 rax gasless expand and here is why:
The Terran player does not have to hold his natural.
Just float your CC back into your main, salvage the bunker and rebuild on high ground. Then you just fight to hold the ramp, this will end up with the Terran player being ahead. Defending a push that is slightly weaker (unitwise) than a 4gate and with no sentries for guardian shield or to forcefield repairing SCVs away is not that hard.
All in all, I dont see you breaking the ramp. The Terran will now have 2 OC, more SCVs and it wont be long before he can reclaim his natural and just be way ahead. The follow up 2 or 4 medivac timing will be extremly hard for you to deal with.
If he does choose to try to fight and hold his natural and succeeds, the game is pretty much over right there.
If you have an account on EU I'd love to show you what I mean if it is unclear. Just PM me here on TL and I'll give you my details so we can play a couple of games.
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On August 15 2012 21:12 terrancake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 14:47 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 14:11 Xahhk wrote:On August 15 2012 13:20 Havik_ wrote:On August 15 2012 09:45 Jaeger wrote:On August 15 2012 07:47 Havik_ wrote:
I've used this today to massive success. It even works vs Terran believe it or not. I think I'm going to make this my standard opener from now on. It hits super quick and its not even all in. I love it! Anyone have success with this vs races other than Protoss? I'm beating people two leagues above me with this build. Not really optimal vs other races. You aren't really hitting any important timings with an attack at 5:30 with 1 zealot 4 stalkers against any race but protoss. Well its terrible vs Zerg, so I don't plan on using it there, but vs Terran I find that I'm hitting with either 3 Stalkers, 2 Zealots, or 4 Stalkers 1 Zealot with another Stalker rallying in there. At that timing they should have about as many Marines as I have Zealots and Stalkers so they just die(If they 1 Rax FE). If they have a bunker, they may fare alright, but if they dont, they usually just die. Its got potential in PvT I think. It just hits so early. The one PvT I did it in the guy didn't go 1 rax FE, but went Reaper expand and just got destroyed. I was Silver, he was Diamond. lol. You'll eventually get T that see you are not 1 gate expanding, and prepare for one base shenanigans accordingly. Funny you mention that. I just did it against a top 4 Masters Terran and he just barely held it. I was one shot away from breaking his Bunker. I was late with the attack too. This can definitely work vs Terran, but you have to do damage. For low league though, it owns. You have to be spot on with the timing though. I don't want to be that guy but I don't think you are right. I don't see this working against a Terran even if he is doing a 1 rax gasless expand and here is why: The Terran player does not have to hold his natural. Just float your CC back into your main, salvage the bunker and rebuild on high ground. Then you just fight to hold the ramp, this will end up with the Terran player being ahead. Defending a push that is slightly weaker (unitwise) than a 4gate and with no sentries for guardian shield or to forcefield repairing SCVs away is not that hard. All in all, I dont see you breaking the ramp. The Terran will now have 2 OC, more SCVs and it wont be long before he can reclaim his natural and just be way ahead. The follow up 2 or 4 medivac timing will be extremly hard for you to deal with. If he does choose to try to fight and hold his natural and succeeds, the game is pretty much over right there. If you have an account on EU I'd love to show you what I mean if it is unclear. Just PM me here on TL and I'll give you my details so we can play a couple of games.
Yeah, that happened to me yesterday, although I was late and did almost no damage. If I had actually hit the timing, I would have at least done some damage. I don't think I'm going to make it my go to build vs Terran though. I do think its something that you could use in a Bo5 or something along those lines though, and most players below Diamond will have trouble with it as is.
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I use 11gate often but I changed the build a little bit.
9pylon
11gate
@gate50% gas
@gate finish core+zealot+probe(u should be 18/18 supply block here)
Pylon when u can afford
Then halt probe production.
stalker when core finish
Then 2gate + 1more stalker
this time u can resume probe production.
I feel comfortable with this because it will not lose to 3stalker opening and u can do a lot of damage with 1more stalker.
What do u guys think?
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So I guess the noob question here is: Is this build better in PvP than either the 3 stalker or the HerO's Stargate Opener?
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On September 05 2012 00:31 samchan1331 wrote:
I use 11gate often but I changed the build a little bit.
9pylon
11gate
@gate50% gas
@gate finish core+zealot+probe(u should be 18/18 supply block here)
Pylon when u can afford
Then halt probe production.
stalker when core finish
Then 2gate + 1more stalker
this time u can resume probe production.
I feel comfortable with this because it will not lose to 3stalker opening and u can do a lot of damage with 1more stalker.
What do u guys think?
What league are you in? The only advantage of this build is negated when you wait for that second stalker, even waiting for the 1st stalker, you will barely have enough time to rally your zealot, stalker and probe to your opponents base to plant the proxy.
On September 05 2012 10:34 BoZiffer wrote:
So I guess the noob question here is: Is this build better in PvP than either the 3 stalker or the HerO's Stargate Opener?
They accomplish different things. 3 stalker is safer and gives you more probes and gas, but runs the risk of falling behind to greedier builds and slows your warpgate tech. Heros stargate build is safe, but is also risky if your sentry control is not as good and relies on being reactive to your opponent. This build is risky if scouted and the proxy is stopped cold, is very difficult to execute but often wins the game outright or puts you in a commanding lead if successfully done.
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EPT
