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On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote:
I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
If they have something like 4-5 zealots when you poke they most likely went early two gates. Your main focus should be deflecting the cheese and try to sneak in a proxy somewhere near them so you can warp in after you have defended. You should be way ahead on wg/tech.
If they are somehow just sitting with 4-5 zealots w/out cheesing you can warp in on the low ground, just plant proxies below or somewhere close to the ramp.Since they probably delayed their core/gas your stalkers should handle them. By the time you get there I'm not sure if there is a bo that can get 4-5 zealots while not having tech delayed at all. I assume your nervous about DTs since you mention detection. They are not going to have enough gas to warp in the sentries necessary to keep you out so you don't need a proxy on the top. Stalkers should just clean up the zealots then just kill the shrine before it warps in. I faced a DT build once while using this and it was an easy win.
Edit: Also Alej mentioned this before but be careful with your poke up the ramp, if your probe takes a zealot shot run down and plant on the low ground.
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On January 10 2012 23:36 Wrath98 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote:
I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't? If they have something like 4-5 zealots when you poke they most likely went early two gates. Your main focus should be deflecting the cheese and try to sneak in a proxy somewhere near them so you can warp in after you have defended. You should be way ahead on wg/tech. If they are somehow just sitting with 4-5 zealots w/out cheesing you can warp in on the low ground, just plant proxies below or somewhere close to the ramp.Since they probably delayed their core/gas your stalkers should handle them. By the time you get there I'm not sure if there is a bo that can get 4-5 zealots while not having tech delayed at all. I assume your nervous about DTs since you mention detection. They are not going to have enough gas to warp in the sentries necessary to keep you out so you don't need a proxy on the top. Stalkers should just clean up the zealots then just kill the shrine before it warps in. I faced a DT build once while using this and it was an easy win. Edit: Also Alej mentioned this before but be careful with your poke up the ramp, if your probe takes a zealot shot run down and plant on the low ground.
Thanks  I tend to scare a bit easily and run all the way back instead of pulling back a little and dropping a proxy  And yes, early two gates are usually what they have, sometimes three (even though I have _no_ idea why) which means their core is delayed for a bit at least.
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On January 09 2012 13:08 Easytouch1500 wrote:None of the replays from replayfu work  They all say "no data to parse"
this!
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On January 10 2012 22:40 Tobias wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote:
I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
You are not meant to post with a message starting with what you said. "I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now." In the purge thread, it clearly stated that you do NOT post unless you have watched the replays so you can give a detailed constructive post.
Now my post is that like the OP said, there is still real trouble holding this on the 3oClock position. It's also very common on PvP on ladder on this map. Feels like if you spawn in the 3o'Clock in PvP it's almost a guaranteed loss to someone who knows this build. If anyone knows how to stop it on this position, do post!
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On January 11 2012 19:53 ODKStevez wrote:
You are not meant to post with a message starting with what you said. "I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now." In the purge thread, it clearly stated that you do NOT post unless you have watched the replays so you can give a detailed constructive post.
I'm talking about me not having access to any replays to post, which would've been obvious if you'd actually expanded the quotes of our entire discussion.
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if they are 2gating in their base you are pretty damn safe.. if they really delayed their gas that late no need to even do the pressure because you will get ahead just by having gas O_O
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Could you describe the process you use to come up with these builds? Is it purely experimentation, or do you use any tools to help you?
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On January 12 2012 03:17 TheExodus wrote:
Could you describe the process you use to come up with these builds? Is it purely experimentation, or do you use any tools to help you?
i ripped this one from one of Oz's gsl games and then just kind of intuited through the follow ups with what he gave me. the link is in the op but unfortunately you'd need the pass for that season to get it
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But you seem to be spitting out innovative builds faster than a roach, do they all come from replays and vods?
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On January 12 2012 03:30 TheExodus wrote:
But you seem to be spitting out innovative builds faster than a roach, do they all come from replays and vods?
the builds in that other thread all have their roots in 1 game i watched of nani at mlg (see the credits section in op). even though he didn't end up showing the 4gate defense, i could intuit what he would have done based on his cb energy, and the fact that he did it blindly tells me it's safe against gw pressure (at least on antigua, the map on which the game was played). thus i had confidence that if i did enough work it would eventually all come together.
the key pieces to the puzzle were the reactionary 4th chronoboost on WG tech, and the 5:58 chronoboost on the gateway to ensure a timely 3rd sentry. these took some work to figure out.
the sg build was the only stretch, as you have 50 more gas sunk into tech at 32 food. however, by tweaking the build slightly and getting the 2nd gas just a smidge faster, you have exactly 100 gas when you're ready to train your 1st sentry. That was kind of just luck hehe.
the 3 2gate variations in the thread are simply manipulations that allow a player that can't get the gas timings to line up correctly with the 1 gate builds to still get the 4gate defense from the opening, and also have a relatively quick tech option.
he is the real innovator. he just doesn't post in the strat section :D
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do this since i saw oz game... win nearly every pvp i dont f up. get insulted pretty hard. laugh my ass off.
very nice build all credits to Oz and the OP. nais write up
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best pvp build, for the life of me I don't know why this isn't used so much more
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I have been using this build for about two weeks now, and I just wanted to say thank you. Having so much fun with this build You're the best Alej!
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Thanks or the guide Alej! It's a great build, absolutely destroys protoss who don't scout/play greedy.
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On January 12 2012 04:43 Mattchew wrote:
best pvp build, for the life of me I don't know why this isn't used so much more
the koreans in hsc were doing some 11 gate builds but they were just like derping on the core timings and not doing it for a rush which is beyond me. imo if you cut the first cb you might as well do something with the faster gate. if only mc had english to explain past "map imba" and "bling good" to break it down for us TT
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Awesome guide! I will experiment some with the timings of this build as this has a lot of potential!
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Uploaded to Liquipedia, using a mixture of your wording and my own.
Tinman on LP
Edit as necessary.
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Do you have any replays of this versus standard PvP builds these days (ones that you listed in your RIP 4-gate post would be nice.)
I tried watching the one versus 3s -> robo but the replay is down.
Thanks!
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On January 13 2012 01:03 Melonator wrote:
Do you have any replays of this versus standard PvP builds these days (ones that you listed in your RIP 4-gate post would be nice.)
I tried watching the one versus 3s -> robo but the replay is down.
Thanks!
i will try to locate those replays locally and get them up on drop.sc
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On January 12 2012 22:36 Surili wrote:Uploaded to Liquipedia, using a mixture of your wording and my own. Tinman on LPEdit as necessary.
thank you! edited it a little; had to get rid of the first cb on nexus and make a tweak or two
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EPT
