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Canada13392 Posts
On January 02 2012 14:33 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote:
How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base. it's very map dependent. on maps where there is a tower in the middle, scout through there first. on shakuras, you need to scout your base and the spot in between your base and the one vertically near it and check both towers to be sure there's no proxy gates. on xel'naga you'd have to check your base and your nat. on temple the gold base nearest you is also a proxy gate hotspot because you can't spot close to them so they can narrow it down to your base and the one that is close spawn to you. edit: oh and on metal you need to check the 3rd in between you and your close spawn and at the gold nearest you
I've been scouting the close ground locations on shak ant xel naga on 9 like you in some of your replays and its worked. On metal, its hard to scout earlier than the 14 pylon. Then if I show up at his base and I lose the probe or see a 3 stalker rush I generally have a really hard time winning the game.
Should I be placing the pylons when I see a 3 stalker rush or should I just transition into a different build? Should the third pylon be proxied somewhere in the middle so I can push with 4 stalkers 1 zealot while my 2 pylons at his ramp are warping in?
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On January 04 2012 04:51 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 14:33 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote:
How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base. it's very map dependent. on maps where there is a tower in the middle, scout through there first. on shakuras, you need to scout your base and the spot in between your base and the one vertically near it and check both towers to be sure there's no proxy gates. on xel'naga you'd have to check your base and your nat. on temple the gold base nearest you is also a proxy gate hotspot because you can't spot close to them so they can narrow it down to your base and the one that is close spawn to you. edit: oh and on metal you need to check the 3rd in between you and your close spawn and at the gold nearest you I've been scouting the close ground locations on shak ant xel naga on 9 like you in some of your replays and its worked. On metal, its hard to scout earlier than the 14 pylon. Then if I show up at his base and I lose the probe or see a 3 stalker rush I generally have a really hard time winning the game. Should I be placing the pylons when I see a 3 stalker rush or should I just transition into a different build? Should the third pylon be proxied somewhere in the middle so I can push with 4 stalkers 1 zealot while my 2 pylons at his ramp are warping in?
against the 3 stalker rush it's safer to steal gas if you can. if you can, don't even bother going through with the rush. if you go for it, and the cb stalkers and not wg, it's going to be really hard even if you hit your timings really well.
on maps where i need to scout for proxies, i've been ditching 11gate for 12gate builds just because you NEED to scout those sometimes and it really slows down your core.
so on shak i've all but stopped doing it. on metal i'll scout the proxy spots on gate then return it to mine, though i think you you might be able to stop it by scouting them on core but it will be tough!
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On January 02 2012 14:30 ShadowDeath wrote:
How are you supposed to scout for proxy gates? Because if I look at every possible proxy location my Probe can´t often get into their base.
You don't actually have to scout the proxy gates if they come in with 1-3 zealots early you can hold it blind even if it's in your base. If they wait longer and come in with 5+ zealots I'm not sure I've never gone against it but it seems like it should be harder.
Just get 3-4 stalkers and counter attack and you win with good micro even if you lose all your probes. Be sure not to get warpgate tech that 50 gas is better spent on another stalker.
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On December 29 2011 22:39 CaM27 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2011 19:08 Mesha wrote:On December 29 2011 18:50 CaM27 wrote:On December 29 2011 11:36 CaM27 wrote:So if you scout an 11gate, what's the appropriate reaction? It's all good to build a guide but i'm also interested for the counter  Anyone? I sometimes loose to 3 stalkers. It is like soft counter build for 11 gate. Does this mean theres basiclly nothing to counter this? And if it is flawlesly executed you can't do jack about it? wtf
I've had the most trouble with 4gates that spend all chrono on core and warp-in defensively and then counter attack with a proxy pylon in my base.
The 11gater basically has to build his pylons at your ramp for this build or they won't be ready in time to warp-in so just pull way back in your base and don't engage until your warp-ins or if he's focusing a pylon try to draw fire without losing anything
Here's an example game http://drop.sc/84447.
P.S. if anyone has suggestions on how to play better against that wouldn't mind at all
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Nice write up on this build. I have been having trouble in pvp and this is gonna help alot thanks! :D
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hello sir
Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds.
For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 
Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build
Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds!
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On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds!
well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns.
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Canada13392 Posts
On January 06 2012 14:09 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds! well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns.
Can you update OP to reflect maps this is good/bad on in your opinion? Entombed is huge and antiga similarly is really hard to have this work on. Its great if you scout first this works but if you scout last and they went for something like 3 stalker then you can't really pressure, you are behind in tech if they went 2 gate - tech - 3rd gate.
I can see 11gate being pretty good on forced cross position antiga though, and its good on xel as well as metal. The only huge issue with metal are the two potential proxy locations.
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On January 06 2012 14:17 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 14:09 Alejandrisha wrote:On January 05 2012 23:33 blowfish wrote:hello sir Thank you for this great guide to the agressive 3 gate that punishes greedy builds. For me personally it is extremely hard to hit your gate timings and therefore my warpintiming is considerably slower than your optimal warp in. Playing against plat players this does not matter so much, but i am still extremely unhappy that i can not drop my gate at 1:25 Please would you be so kind and also explain to me how this is a hard counter to cannon rushes because I face a lot of them and always get destroyed when i am using that build Thank you in advance looking really forward for your PvZ builds! well, the "hard counter" is a bit of a lie. it will help you get out a faster zealot if you scout it, but you HAVE to scout it. this means placing your 1st pylon and gate on maps where this is possible (metal, antigua come to mind, though I've stopped doing this on antigua) to wall off between your mins or geyser and the lip of your base. this will help give vision of where the pylon will be started (though you can cannon rush so they can't see it with buildings at the edge so you have to scout it at some point regardless) and also make it so the probe has more travel distance to where he would ideally put his scouter buildings. unless he tries to place his buildings outside the mineral line, he will have to travel through your mineral line (meaning you can focus it down potentially). at this point it becomes a game of denying vision up the upper ground. put probes on patrol where the pylons are likely to go down and chrono out that first zealot to focus down any buildings he manages to start on the highground. all the while keeping at least 1 probe on his probe to punish him for making sharp turns. Can you update OP to reflect maps this is good/bad on in your opinion? Entombed is huge and antiga similarly is really hard to have this work on. Its great if you scout first this works but if you scout last and they went for something like 3 stalker then you can't really pressure, you are behind in tech if they went 2 gate - tech - 3rd gate. I can see 11gate being pretty good on forced cross position antiga though, and its good on xel as well as metal. The only huge issue with metal are the two potential proxy locations.
will do.
edit: done!
A word on maps
+ Show Spoiler +I don't recommend using this on maps that have significantly far away proxy locations that you really need to scout before 15 food to be safe. I also advise against using this on maps that have a secondary ramp at the natural, as your opponent can set up a defensive position there and you HAVE to go through one specific zone in order to get to the ramp. That being said...
Maps that are good for this:
Metal
you can scout your natural 3rd base and the gold in time with your 15th probe, and scout for cannons with good building placement and perhaps a small deviation from the natural scouting pattern by your nat just to be safe)
Xel'naga
You can spot cannon rush with your building placement. I prefer to scout my base for in base proxy on twelve then send the probe back to mine. Just scout your nat and behind the grass on 15 and take the farther path from your nat to the tower to scout for proxy gates there).
Shattered
You can scout your gold and through the tower for proxy gates on 15 safely. doesn't hurt to send your gateway probe to the edge to check for cannons, though no one has done this since piqliq was still playing..
Maps that are not as good for this:
Antigua
2ndary ramp, though you can still do it if you're very careful with your approach as you should get up the 2ndary ramp before a 2nd stalker is out vs 1 gate openings. Make sure you scout cross spawn first to check the tower and consider checking your 3rd as well, though this is very uncommon. Always spot for cannon rush with your initial pylon + gateway)
Entombed
See Antigua
Maps that are bad for this:
Shakuras
Need to scout whole base + in between your nat and close spawn nat and your tower to check for proxy/cannon rush, and has a 2ndary ramp
TDA
No ramp so you can't hold a counter with ff's unless you over-invest in sentries, at which point your transition is late and therefore tremendously weaker)
**I'm not quite sure about arid. I don't play it so much. I'll give it a shot though.. no secondary ramp so that's good. 2 spawn locations which means proxies will be slightly more common. Ideal spots for the proxy would be in base or slightly beyond your nat. I'd scout for in-base on gateway then the nat on 15
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thank you for the quick and helpful response!
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I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base?
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On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote:
I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base?
zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D
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None of the replays from replayfu work
They all say "no data to parse"
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Why do you make an inbase pylon at 24?
I wish i could delete, this post. I don't know why I didn't just edit my last one.
Anyways, Also, your vod commentating of replays if fucking gold. Learned alot of shit from that shit. You are pretty fucking hilarious also.
"he sees my 8 stalkers and my giant e-penis, and he's gonna make sentries."
Fucking great.
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On January 09 2012 14:02 Easytouch1500 wrote:
Why do you make an inbase pylon at 24?
i suppose you could make a safe proxy at 24. i'm not sure why or why not. i haven't messed around with this too much. on the press you really don't want to warp into a safe location as that pretty much means it's not going to work. could be a proxy for later, i suppose
edit: all of my replays will be from drop.sc from now on. sorry about that. replay.fu failed me
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On January 06 2012 18:11 Alejandrisha wrote:
Heavily edited by Trusty
Metal
and scout for cannons with good building placement
Xel'naga
You can spot cannon rush with your building placement.
Antigua
Always spot for cannon rush with your initial pylon + gateway)
Hi Alej,
Several times in this post you refer to Building Placement for scouting cannon rush on maps like Metal/Antiga/XnC.
Could you be more specific?
Metal/Antiga: Just putting it near the ledge?
XNC: Just putting pylons behind your mineral line?
I really struggle a lot with Cannon rush on Metal and Antiga.
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on metal you want to get the most vision possible with your pylon. with your gate you want to seal off the space between mins and the side of your base so the probe can't zip through for vision/building
+ Show Spoiler +
this is the tricky one:
+ Show Spoiler +
this pylon sees the cannon rushes that kill you when you put your pylon farther to the left.
for the 9 oclock spawn, you will probably have to run your probe through there regardless just because there's so much area.
for antigua, you can wall the space between the geyser and the side of your base with a pylon in every position while getting good vision where the cannon rush would come from. however, many people will start the first pylon out of sight of even these pylons, so I recommend scouting with a probe anyway.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Wow thanks so much man Pictures and everything!
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np ^^
just be careful with that 3 o clock on metal. that spawn is totally imba for getting cannon rushed!
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On January 09 2012 03:28 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 18:34 Tobias wrote:
I've noticed that sometimes my opponent has enough zealots to deflect my intial poke by the time I scout them. Is this because of bad micro on my part (could i out-micro them and still place my pylons?) or does it just happen and I need to regroup in my base? zealots deflect the initial poke how? Please attach a replay of this. don't need to fight 2 zealots with your zealot. just make sure you get a pylon down on the low ground, shift right click on his mineral patch to mineral walk up the ramp and then place a pylon as soon as you get to the top. if he's denying it by focusing down the pylons, make sure you retain your zealot so you can focus down whatever is attacking the pylons. all the while maintaining near constant cb. no one said this was going to be easy :D
I'm at work, so I don't have access to any replays right now. If they're going for cheese they can have 4-5 zealots out by the time I scout them, in which case it's close to impossible to get any pylons up. Of course this puts me way ahead since my WG is done very quickly, but I feel I have to pull back and warp in defensively (and get up detection) when it happens. Can you always get up your pylons in/next to his base, or are there cheese-builds that mean you can't?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n536/alej15/Screenshot2012-01-0917_05_45.jpg)
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