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I loved when Oz used that build!
I run into a lot of peeps on ladder who loves to go 12 gate, cut zealot, steal my gas and get their own gas and also start mining from it, regardless of my opening. They make up for the delayed WG this causes by having sentries at their ramp to prevent 4gates while they do some greedy 1 gate robo variation.
In this build the pylons get placed when there's only one sentry in those kinds of builds (4:55 smtn) and your opponent HAS to forcefield to not have a pylon in his base and die. While the forcefield protects him a second sentry will pop with it's own forcefield but that wear off around the time your WG finishes. And it's pretty clear how 4 stalkers+zeal does against 1 stalker and 2 sentries  .
a note: in Oz v sage Oz cancels his 24th probe and immediately remakes it again to "fake" non aggression, as sage otherwise would've been able to see that he cuts probes to get the gates up faster, I found that kinda cute  I dont know if it's worth the hassle in a non GSL-environment though, this build seems to work well for you even without optimal excution...
A question as well: I think Oz used this build because sage seemed reluctant to get a zealot before stalker.
In game 1, Sage HAD to get a zealot because Oz went with a chrono'd zeal before core so not much to say there, but he skipped it in game 2, and skipped it in game 3 as well (and even though Oz didn't know this he might have known sage's tendencies, and judged that he was likely gonna cut it out). Is it possible to get the 2 offesive pylons down by your opponents if they have both a zealot and stalker to zone your probe away with.
Do you think that you can get your proxy pylons set up close enough to make advantage of your earlier WG timing if your opponent gets a zealot+stalker and uses it to zone out your probe? Even though your opponent does this in the 3rd replay it doesn't seem like he even tries to look for standard proxies.
nice write up
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On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote:
o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately.
I'd like to see some of the reps where it maybe didn't go so well if you wouldn't mind putting them up or just pming me with links!
I haven't seen 10/11 gates in forever I didn't know people had been doing them all along.. maybe just not in tournaments I've watched (which is kind of a lot O_O) or on streams I don't watch
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I know you mention that this "hard counters a cannon rush" but could you go through some more details for me as to why it does? timings etc...
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On October 09 2011 20:39 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote:
o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you.
I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind.
This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately. I'd like to see some of the reps where it maybe didn't go so well if you wouldn't mind putting them up or just pming me with links! I haven't seen 10/11 gates in forever I didn't know people had been doing them all along.. maybe just not in tournaments I've watched (which is kind of a lot O_O) or on streams I don't watch
I never see anyone else do 10/11 gates either, my point wasn't that "oh this is an old build that's been around forever" but more like "oh I know exactly how good this build is and it's cool to see other people use it" :p
I don't have any replays on hand (because like I said, I've stopped using it against good opponents), but I'll do it some more in the next few days and add replays.
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Wow you are the best Protoss Strategy writer on TL. Always full of in depth analysis and important details. I will be trying my hands out on this build!!
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This thread delivers. I am aroused!
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Interesting build. Definately have to try this out on ladder.
I recommend only warping in the stalkers aggressively unless his WG is slow because of CB inefficiency.
Is this a typo? I think it meant to say zealots.
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Awsome guide, I've faced this on ladder and the earlier warpin made me to pull probes, meanwhile he was teching up at home.
Can you please add the information about when to start mining gas again in the bo? You stated about not starting to mine gas yet, but you didn't explicitly state when you should start mining again. Thanks.
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So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd).
In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds.
here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-236254.jpg)
My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate.
I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30...
To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate.
Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
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Anyone else unable to open some of the replays? I'm getting timeouts for the skeleton build, and for the games that aren't against a cannon rush.
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On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote:So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd). In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds. here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31. My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30... To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate. Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
Holy pokes i thought 48 and 133 were optimal.... and i usually hit 49 and 135.... and i thought i was doing so well.... thanks a lot geiko ...
....play this game for a year straight and still can't get the first pylon down on time -_-
OT: I've been doing a 12 g/16cyber version of this for a month or so.... its really powerful.... will def check out this version. The way I've been playing it I get a 2nd stalker, but i saw Oz Opted for 2 probes.... could someone smarter than me explain this decision? Isn't 1z5s way better than 1z4s? Or is it that 1z5s still loses to 4 gate 1z6s so the probes are a better choice?
Great guide thanks!
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Fantastic build, looks cool. Is this worth doing on Tal'Darim? I get the feeling that the opponent 4-gating will be able to counter-push with an already-placed proxy pylon as soon as he defends (although losing some probes) and we just die with our 3 gates?
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Actually have run into this on the ladder recently whilst doing the 3 stalker rush-- I believe I pulled like 8-10 probes when he placed the first proxy pylons in addition to my one stalker followed up quickly by 2 more--
If you're not going for a fast warpgate you actually should spend all of your chrono on your unit production. You're not going to get a faster warpgate so you just need enough units to hold off the push.
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Oz also used this vs JYP on antiga [vod set2]
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I knew I wasn't crazy when I thought that OZ did something weird those games. Nevertheless, Alej delivers the goods, once again. Will definitely try it out.
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On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote:So I finally have access to SC ! I checked out your replays but none of them are actually perfect as you said so it's hard to compare. (btw you might want to fix your GSL link, it shows MMA vs asd). In fact in most of them, you get your 11 gate just 1 second earlier than a good 12 gate so from there on, you can't really compare builds. here's my version of a 12 gate 4 gate with 5 CBs. I finish the warp in at 5:33 but i screw up some timings. My record is 5:31. My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30... To be fair though, I think the difference would be a lot bigger on maps with only 2 close patches. On maps like XNC with 4 close patches, 11 gating doesn't really bring much in terms of gate timing (5 secs at most), but on other maps, I think you can get it down 7 or 8 seconds before a 12 gate. Edit : Oh btw, everyone should check out my split in this replay that i do for 4 close patch maps. It's the easiest way to pair up all of your workers from the very beginning. I average 46 pylons and 1:31 gates with this split with minimal probe micro.
Hmm these results actually don't bother me too much. We'll have our 2nd gas up safely and we still force a defensive warp in of stalkers, but will have to retreat thereafter.
The 11 gate falls a probe behind a 12 gate with 2 cb on nex; I would assume the 12 gate with 1 cb is still a little bit ahead of the 11 gate, but not by as much.
If I faced a 12/16 with 1 cb using the 11gate, I'd probably be upset that I lose the zealot by default while retreating but I wouldn't fear a counter attack as you get your 2 sentries up with time to spare after your defensive zealot warp-in.
I appreciate you supplying the replay! Was very interesting as I haven't seen a 1 cb nexus 4gate before, and your timings were very sharp.
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On October 09 2011 21:29 Fairwell wrote:
Awsome guide, I've faced this on ladder and the earlier warpin made me to pull probes, meanwhile he was teching up at home.
Can you please add the information about when to start mining gas again in the bo? You stated about not starting to mine gas yet, but you didn't explicitly state when you should start mining again. Thanks.
Start mining gas after you warp in the 3 zealots. If you start mining gas before then, you won't have 300 mins when the cool downs are up while still cb'ing out probes.
In the case that you retreat after the stalker warp-ins, I suppose you could put probes on the 2nd gas a bit sooner as you don't need to warp in zealots defensively as quick as you would need to aggressively.. if that makes any sense O_O
edit: added a note in the why it works section to reflect geiko's findings
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Great guide!
I really like this build, and I've tried it a few times myself. It's a very safe way to punish opponents who are greedy with something like 2 gate stargate or 1 gate robo while still being able to get your 2nd gas fairly early yourself. I also think it's perfectly safe against 4 gate, especially now that they can't get up your ramp against forcefields.
Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
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On October 10 2011 08:20 iSTime wrote:
Great guide!
I really like this build, and I've tried it a few times myself. It's a very safe way to punish opponents who are greedy with something like 2 gate stargate or 1 gate robo while still being able to get your 2nd gas fairly early yourself. I also think it's perfectly safe against 4 gate, especially now that they can't get up your ramp against forcefields.
Against 3 stalker rush I think the best response is just to steal their 2nd gas and grab yours early, using the gas advantage rather than trying to pressure, though.
I like this idea thanks for mentioning that. I am still not sold on how much damage or whether or not you can do real damage with this against 3 stalker rush reliably especially as people start recognizing 11 gate and respond by cb'ing the stalkers instead of WG to try to deny pylons in conjunction with probe pulling
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Good read, \0/
Really like the build.
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EPT
