EPT[G] PvP 11gate into 3gate press - Page 3
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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RabidSeagull
United States220 Posts
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
 On October 09 2011 20:32 Anihc wrote: o.o I've been using this exact same build for almost a year now lol. Really good build when people don't know how to react properly to it. It gets soft countered though by a standard 4 gate, and I know that you talk about how to deal with 4 gate in your guide but if you play perfectly you still end up a little behind, and if you mess up just a little (i.e. lose the 1z1s battle, or mistime a chrono or two by a few seconds, etc. ) it's auto loss for you. I still think it's a great build but I've definitely stopped using it as much because people aren't overreacting to seeing my fast warpgate, and I just end up not really being able to do much damage with the 1z4s attack and end up economically behind. This build is one of my favorite builds against weaker players though since it's really easy to force mistakes (or just get a huge advantage if opponent has no clue how to react), plus the early 11 gate helps you react/defend better to early cheeses if not scouted immediately. But now with the patch you can do some potential damage, get out and make sentries because you know the 4 gate is coming and you are ahead in workers. Honestly 4 gate doesn't concern me that much. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 10 2011 12:10 Stipulation wrote: Thanks for writing a guide on this. I started using it as soon as I saw oz do it. The funny thing is I was trying to develop this build for so long and couldn't make the money work. I never thought to just skip the 3rd gateway unit But now with the patch you can do some potential damage, get out and make sentries because you know the 4 gate is coming and you are ahead in workers. Honestly 4 gate doesn't concern me that much. Haha yes that was actually a huge revelation I had when watching the vod.. I kept waiting for the 2nd stalker.. and then probes started coming out! Good thing the production tab exists or we'd never be able to figure this shit out haha. | ||
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Stipulation
United States587 Posts
On October 10 2011 00:49 Geiko wrote: My analysis is that, it isn't really worth it to sacrifice 1 gate and a unit for only 5 seconds additional time (because if we execute the builds perfectly, this is exactly how much more time you have). In fact, what you gain from getting an 11 gate is almost exactly what you gain form microing your workers. I would advise everyone to work on their execution (worker pairing, split, and placing buildings at exact timings) before thinking of winning seconds with an 11 gate. I've seen GMs place their first pylon at 50 secs, and get their 12 gate at 1:37 which is kinda huge when you know the optimal times (best possible) are 44 secs and 1:30... The reason I like it is you are committing so much less than that 4 gate does. You can make them warp in ~3 sentries while you smile and tech at home cause you have lots of probes and a second gas. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo? At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of my ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On October 10 2011 13:48 BronzeKnee wrote: I am incredibly impressed with this build, thank you for sharing it with me. It might actually replace the build I've worked so hard on to perfect in PvP. However, I am not convinced that you'll beat a 10 Gate Robo straight up, have you tested it against a 10 Gate Robo? At the time when you would be warping in your first 3 Stalkers, I'd have a Sentry, Stalker and Zealot at the top of y ramp. As long as I hit the first FF, I think I would hold, since I'd have the gas to warp in a second sentry almost immediately if need be (and an Immortal would be building). By the time you'd be warping in the Zealots, I'd have that second sentry, an Immortal and second Zealot would follow soon after. It would be interesting to test. Can you post a replay of you running this build vs AI? I'd like to see wg timing/robo timing/how many gates are done at wg timing/ # of probes/ timing or presence of 2nd gas that kind of thing really curious to see thanks!! edit: or just provide an indepth BO that I could run for the sake of holding all else constant? | ||
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SpyderPig
United States1 Post
I registered just to say this build is laying waste to every protoss I've played on gold ladder. I even beat a master league in a custom game with it today. Also works decently against terran. Thks for the write up. | ||
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Alsa
France10 Posts
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freemoney
1 Post
With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"? Also, with just a zealot and stalker, wouldn't a seasoned PvP player easily deny your probe from even reaching the ramp? Either by zoning with his zealot stalker, or having good control and focus firing the probe? It feels risky, but I suppose your build can live with that. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On October 11 2011 01:22 freemoney wrote: With such late scouting, what is the proper response to a proxy 2gate? 3 zealots at your ramp with 2 more on the way when your stalker has just finished building seems like a huge challenge. Do you just roll the dice and think to yourself "I hope he's not proxy 2gating me"? I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting. | ||
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Nostrada
Finland13 Posts
On October 11 2011 01:42 marvellosity wrote: I'd like this answered too. As far as I know, putting a core down instead of a 2nd gate is pretty much auto-lose vs proxy 2 gate. And you have no way of knowing because you're not scouting. I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all.  Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in. I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 10 2011 13:53 Alejandrisha wrote: Can you post a replay of you running this build vs AI? I'd like to see wg timing/robo timing/how many gates are done at wg timing/ # of probes/ timing or presence of 2nd gas that kind of thing really curious to see thanks!! edit: or just provide an indepth BO that I could run for the sake of holding all else constant? I assume he means this? I'm not aware of any others. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=238165 timings: + Show Spoiler + 0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish I'm pretty sure it loses to this 11gate fast warpgate build. I remember testing against 11gate 4gate and the 11gater brought 2 probes making it impossible to reliably stop the high ground pylon and first warp-in. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 11 2011 08:11 Nostrada wrote: I've encountered proxy gates 3 times using this build and I beat them all. Stalker micro needs to be good tho. Chrono the gateway when you see the zealots coming. Fight with some probes and pull them back when they're dying. I made a proxy pylon to their base and ended the games with first warp-in. I'm loving this build. Getting really good results atm @ 1400 master level. I don't see how the stalker micro has any bearing can't he just kill all your probes while you're microing your stalker? Replays would help. | ||
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Nostrada
Finland13 Posts
On October 11 2011 08:34 Jaeger wrote: I don't see how the stalker micro has any bearing can't he just kill all your probes while you're microing your stalker? Replays would help. Here's an example proxy gate game: http://replayfu.com/download/27c5b07ba1717be3badce72a2f692673 I didn't remember to scout the proxy location in that game. He even unpowered my gateway when he killed a pylon. With a little bit of probe micro losses are avoidable. | ||
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Defeat
United States476 Posts
On October 11 2011 09:21 Nostrada wrote: Here's an example proxy gate game: http://replayfu.com/download/27c5b07ba1717be3badce72a2f692673 I didn't remember to scout the proxy location in that game. He even unpowered my gateway when he killed a pylon. With a little bit of probe micro losses are avoidable. Can you upload to another place or reupload? Replayfu doesn't seem to like you. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
" And warped his stalkers in the back of his base, so I couldn't attack them while warping.... thing is, he only warped in 3 stalkers and warped 1 at my main.... then when I tried to pull back and make the 3 zealots to defend... he began to kite them and warped in 4 zealots at my main.... So I ended up retreating into a crazy melee of my 3z vs his 4z1s at my main while running my 3 stalkers back... with his 3 stalkers in hot pursuit... I did some decent econ damage (i.e. 4 probes) but he just pulled gas probes to minerals and then overwhelmed me with superior zealot production! Is there anyway to stop this? | ||
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Defeat
United States476 Posts
On October 11 2011 10:06 ShatterZer0 wrote: Mr. Alej, I tried out this build, and I beat my practice partner with it after actually doing it right after the 7th try.... Problem is, next game he went " " And warped his stalkers in the back of his base, so I couldn't attack them while warping.... thing is, he only warped in 3 stalkers and warped 1 at my main.... then when I tried to pull back and make the 3 zealots to defend... he began to kite them and warped in 4 zealots at my main.... So I ended up retreating into a crazy melee of my 3z vs his 4z1s at my main while running my 3 stalkers back... with his 3 stalkers in hot pursuit... I did some decent econ damage (i.e. 4 probes) but he just pulled gas probes to minerals and then overwhelmed me with superior zealot production! Is there anyway to stop this?You'll need to attach a replay. This build is very sensitive for build times and warp in times imo. Any deviation can throw you off so that would be my guess but I can't tell for certain without a replay. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On October 11 2011 08:29 Jaeger wrote: I assume he means this? I'm not aware of any others. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=238165 timings: + Show Spoiler + 0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish I'm pretty sure it loses to this 11gate fast warpgate build. I remember testing against 11gate 4gate and the 11gater brought 2 probes making it impossible to reliably stop the high ground pylon and first warp-in. Here's a replay from those test games I mentioned. http://drop.sc/43000 | ||
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Excludos
Norway7940 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=228469 Your guide is way better than mine though, so I'll let it slide I have used this build a ton, and it really works well vs a lot of things, especially as it hits 20 sec before a regular 4gate. People who rely on forcefields to hold the attack will quickly realize they suddenly have one too few. Even if you can't get up the ramp, you can continue building probes, take a second gas, and pressure the enemy with your own units. It does rely on your opponent going "wtf?" though, so it wont work more than once in a row.EDIT: I'm not the inventor of the build either. I actually learned it from someone I met on the ladder, who learned it from someone else. So its still a mystery. It could be one of those cases where a lot of people simply invent the same build, and it sortof blends together. EDIT2: This build beats 10gate robo pretty bad. Usually you'll be far inside his base when the immortal pops out, and you can simply snipe it. Even if not, he wont have much more than 2 sentries, a stalker and an immortal, 4 zealots and 6 stalkers beats that, ramp or no ramp. + you should be able to warp right into his main another 3 zealots. EDIT3: This build also works fantastically vs zerg. Not so much vs terran as 90% walls off their front these days. But vs zerg, it works out pretty much like the old 4gate, before it was patched, and most zergs are just not ready for it. | ||
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