|
Overview
This opening was created by Day[9] and popularized by Day[9] and Liquid'Tyler.
I've modified it ever so slightly to bring it up to date with the current patch.
This build tries to gain a tech advantage and army strength advantage by getting a very fast robo and very fast 2nd gas.
It sacrifices early mineral economy, scouting, army size, mobility, and aggression.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NAjkj.jpg)
Every strategy guide needs an image
The Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 11 Assimilator
- 12 Chrono Boost Nexus x2
- 15 Cybernetics Core (Chrono Boost x3)*
- 16 Pylon
- Stalker (Chrono Boost)
- Warp Gate Research (Chrono Boost x3)
- 22 Assimilator (cut probes you should have 20)
- Robotics Facility
- Zealot
- Gateway
- Pylon
- Sentry
- Immortal (Chrono Boost)**
- Pylon
- * You can scout here, although the loss of minerals make the timings super tight
- ** Note that you'll reach the 25 energy for this Chrono Boost during the production
The probe scout
Your probe scout is going to be so delayed that getting to his base is almost meaningless, the most information you're going to get that's useful is likely to be his spawning location on a >2 player map.
This information is not very interesting as it can usually be gleaned from indirect scouting anyways by checking the time of his probe and later confirmed with your first stalker.
If you do scout his base and see no gas indicating a cheese it's far to late to react to it anyways.
That said this probe scout is best used for scouting around your own base and common proxy locations like between the naturals on shakuras or at the watchtower on delta quadrant.
Since you have a 10gate you actually can put up a defense against a proxy gate but you're going to have to deviate heavily and cancel your core immediately, pull guys off gas, cancel any building probes, etc. Typical crisis management.
Also you can scout the direction his scouting probe arrives from if it hasn't yet and that can be quite helpful in narrowing down his spawn location.
The first stalker
You'll get your first stalker out very quickly with this build, in fact getting this stalker out asap is core to this build.
Many players seem content to let their first probe die in order to scout your base as long as possible. If they stay in your base you're going to have kill it off with your stalker before taking your gas.
This stalker is going to give you map control against almost any normal opener. Use it to bully probes and early zealots off the map and to prevent any super early close proxy pylons from going up. Take control of watch towers on maps with meaningful watch towers.
You can also use it to confirm his spawn location and if he is playing ultra defensively to force out an early forcefield from a sentry.
Followup
Usually you'll want to build a second immortal and then an observer 2 immortals at the top of your ramp with sentries will keep you safe from any early attack.
Your obs will let you defend early dts and scout his tech/army composition/army positioning and let you safely move down your ramp in order to expand/clear out proxy pylons and probes.
If he is going blink stalker you'll want to get a 3rd immortal.
From here you have several options:
You can try to kill your opponent with an early colossus immortal zealot push.
You can use your strong slow army (relative to stalker based armies) to take an expansion
Or my personal favorite exploiting your early gas advantage to transition into 3gate blink stalker. This makes this opener quite robust against phoenix openings which are often said to counter robo openings and 2-3 immortals with guardian shield destroy aggressive blink builds and let you end the game with a counter attack.
Strong Against
- 4 gate openings
- Blink stalker openings
- DT openings
- 3 gate robo openings
Weak Against
- Cannon rushes
- Proxy gateways
- FE openings?
- 2 gate zealot openings?
Gas Steal
A gas steal vs a 10gate with saved chrono is not very common but if it occurs I think you're pretty much obligated to switch into a different build. Luckily a 4gate is still quite easy to switch into and very strong from this position.
Map Concerns
This build relies on being able to forcefield your ramp against early attacks in order to not be overwhelmed but numbers. This build should not be used on maps without the ability to block off with one forcefield.
Key Notes
This build relies upon very thin timings. If you mess up anything early such as chrono boost timing or worker splits it's probably best to cut your losses and switch to a more standard build as quickly as possible.
A typical aggressive 4gate (either the 13gate 5cb on core or the 10gate 4cb on core) finish their first full warp-in at 5:50.
This build will finish its first immortal at 5:42 if done optimally. Outside of yabot it typically finishes for me right around 5:50 and if you're slow on any part your immortal will be delayed proportionally.
You can't produce immeditately from your second gateway and have enough money to make an second immortal without a bump.
Rule of thumb: build a pylon after every immortal.
Ultra Refinements
Unlike most openers it is correct in this case to build your pylon slightly after 100 minerals if building it exactly on 100 would waste undue mining time (which it usually would).
Since minerals are very tight in this build you'll want to build your first pylon next to your nexus so that you can return to mining as quickly as possible. I recommend leaving a 1 space between your pylon and nexus so your probe can quickly get out, build a structure, and return to mining without having to navigate around your structures.
You want to build your robo close to your ramp so your immortals can rally quickly but far enough back that a probe won't be able to run up and see it before getting killed by your initial gateway units. Typically I place my 16 pylon between my gateway and ramp with my scouting worker while scouting my base for proxies.
If they haven't attacked or scouted your tech by ~6:20 pull your immortal back from the ramp so you don't give free information to a suicidal scout probe.
On early chronoboost:
+ Show Spoiler +
cb before pylon 10pylon 10gate
0:49 finish 9th probe
1:00 finish 10th probe
1:21 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
1:35 gas (finish 2:05)
2:26 core
5:26 warpgate tech finish
2:40 15 probe finish
5:42 immortal finish
0:51 finish 9th probe
1:11 finish 10th probe
1:16 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
1:37 gas (finsh 2:07)
2:22 core
2:31 15 probe finish
5:22 warpgate tech finish
5:42 immortal finish
Essentially you get +14 seconds of mining time by chronoboosting probes before pylon.
A probe mines about 2/3 minerals/second which gives you around 9-10 extra minerals.
This manifests itself as a 2 second faster assimilator.
However you delay your gateway and lose 10 seconds of probe production.
As you get your immortals at the same time but get your 15th probe stalker and warpgate sooner I believe not chronoboosting until after gas is the clear winner.
Replays and VODs
|
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
|
On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote:
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out.
|
I have used this build quite a few times on the ladder (mid diamond) and although I have no trouble against blink and 4gate openings, 3/2 gate robo openings into 1-base colossi rushes (which are very common nowadays) make it very very difficult for me to gain somesort of advantage over my opponent. I cannot just attack and bust his ramp because he will a) either delay me with forcefields till his colossus comes out or b) just split my army at the ramp with forcefields and kill it off gradually with a zealot heavy composition.
I've spotted Tyler go for a slightly more economic version of this build once he's absolutely sure that no 4gate is coming (I think it was in a game against Naniwa in the HsC#3) and then make a prism, which he probably (my speculation) intended to use to drop immortals onto the colossi/sentries or into the mineral line. Despite all of that, I still find myself in a rather uncomfortable position against a 2/3 gate robo where I absolutely -have- to deal damage unless I want to play from behind.
I have tried transitioning out of the build early (once I'm relatively sure that no 4gate is coming) into a very early 2-colossi timing push with no immortals at all, and although it might work on close position spawns, the traveling distance on most maps will give your opponent enough time to make his own colossus and just play it safe from there.
In concusion, I'd -love- to use this build, but I seem to be a bit lost against players that use a standard robo opening.
|
Hello Jaeger, this is FlatLine
anyways I've seen him play around with this build multiple times. This build seems pretty solid from my POV.
|
On June 28 2011 15:41 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote:
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly. I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out.
Stargate play is not void rays, it is normally 3-4 pheonix. They will lift the sentrys up and kill them and then lift the 2 immortals up. Gee Gee. I.E. Huk vs Naniwa Homestory cup game 5.
|
Wow. Day9 is brilliant. Adds a breath of fresh air to the current PvP matchup!
|
Nice, I just stole this for my PvP. Good writeup.
|
I don't like builds susceptible to cheeses, in fact, I don't approve of any builds which are like "hell, I'll expand now and he won't come check it and I win. Damn, he came? cheese noob!".
With that said, I think I might try this one, but never play it in a CW or something...
|
On June 28 2011 16:02 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:41 Mikelius wrote:On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote:
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly. I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out. Stargate play is not void rays, it is normally 3-4 pheonix. They will lift the sentrys up and kill them and then lift the 2 immortals up. Gee Gee. I.E. Huk vs Naniwa Homestory cup game 5.
Since vods/replays aren't up yet for that game I can't compare timings.
Since there is no standard phoenix opening in pvp as far as I know I can't test timings myself so the best I can do is go to the last pro level phoenix opening pvp I have the rep for.
Liquid'Tyler vs oGsMC from MLG Columbus @ Metalopolis
4 phoenix in close air positions get to MC's base at 8 minutes and Tyler has:
3gates 1stargate 4 phoenix 4 stalkers 4 zealots and 26 probes
In the last game I played with this opener at 8 minutes I had:
3gates 1robo 4 stalkers 2 sentries 2 immortals 2 zealots 1 observer and 24 probes with blink ~50%.
and my transition was pretty sloppy I could've had the same faster or more stuff. If I just went for straight up 3gate stalker instead of fast blink it would have had considerably more units but that's a choice you make blindly.
From watching the game you're citing live I recall that the build nani did had much less gas than this one and so he had many zealots but I don't recall the timing of the attack.
Remember that getting 4 phoenix is a bigger investment than getting 2 immortals: 750m 550g vs 700m 300g
Until shown evidence to the contrary I don't think this build is strong against phoenix openings but I don't think it's particularly weak either.
|
On June 28 2011 16:49 Vogin wrote:
I don't like builds susceptible to cheeses, in fact, I don't approve of any builds which are like "hell, I'll expand now and he won't come check it and I win. Damn, he came? cheese noob!".
With that said, I think I might try this one, but never play it in a CW or something...
FWIW you start checking for proxies at ~2:30 which is before standard 12/13 gateway -> scout will get to the opponent's base most of the time. Since you 10gated your situation isn't quite as risky as it might first appear. In the end early game involves a lot of playing probabilities. If you're really playing a build that isn't susceptible to cheese it's going to be behind against standard or greedy play.
That said if you do happen to miss the proxy gates and 2 zealots walk into your base as your first stalker pops out it sucks.
|
I have look at your replay and I relook the Daily for the 6th time, just because I'm in a mood to compare your build to the ones of Day9 and Tyler
First, your Chrono after pylon leaves to the same result that the pre-pylon's chrono, which is interesting. After this you spend 2 Chrono on Nexus for catching up with the number of probes of your opponent. Then you start to save energy because you want to Chronoboost Warpgate and Stalker at the same time. Maybe we can use the Chrono on the nexus instead of the Stalker if we are on a 4 player map and the opponent doesn't have found us already. This way we have a larger marge of error with our minerals. Do you think it's viable or it will delay the construction of the robo ?
Second, i remark that you have listen Day9 at the 14:20 min of the daily when he say that he can sneak in a sentry by the Gateway at the 5 min mark ( of the game) instead of warping in when the research finish. You finish with the same number of sentry that Day9 but instead of 2 warped sentry you have one gateway sentry and one warped sentry. Is there any reason why you choose to do that ? Is it because of the recent patch for the warpgate research ?
Lastly, i just love your follow up with blink. It's versatile, work well with the Observer and can be micro for more effectiveness.
I also remark that you doesn't make any deviation from the build you have make ( which is great) but your scouting information only come from your stalker. It's quite late for checking for a cheese like cannon rush. Can you upload a replay of this against Cannon Rush or 2 proxy gate zealot ?
Tyler, in the video, has wanted to scout, but like Day9 has remarked he delay his second gateway so much that if Mc has decide to attack with the 4 gate, he was relying only on 1 sentry, zealot, stalker and immortal to hold on, with only one warp-in available. I think this will be kind of rough.
That's why i prefer your build that the one of tyler, even if he was able to scout.
P.S. Thank you very much for this thread, i was searching one in the forum for helping me adapt this build with the recent patch. This is going to be my standart PvP 
|
I really don't see the point of this build.
First of all it's just unsafe to not scout in PvP. A 10 gate without the intention of making a zealot will help absolutely nothing in holding off cheeses. Sure it's easy to make tech builds that hold the 4gate by cutting the scouting probe but that is risky and bad play. You will lose more games to cheese then you win by being safer against other things.
Also what is the point of doing a game that is intended for long game play (as robo is) that heavily cuts probes early on. The mineral loss for cutting probes to get a 10 gate AND chronoing really late is quite much, especially when combined with the cut at 20 probes.
There are better robo builds out there that stop a 4 gate just as well but don't rely on gimmicks as 10 gate, probe cutting and not scouting... The only reason this build is even considered as being useful at all is probably because Tyler won a game against MC with it. That game however had nothing to do with the build and was just a fluke as MC got surprised by a midgame push when trying to expand.
4 gating is much easier to scout in this patch then the previous because a 4 gate doesn't chronoboost the gateway anymore.. Therefore there really is no need to sacrifice economy to be able to beat it, you can simply adjust after scouting, for example by going gate-gate-robo instead of gate robo gate.
|
Or my personal favorite exploiting your early gas advantage to transition into 3gate blink stalker. This makes this opener quite robust against phoenix openings which are often said to counter robo openings and 2-3 immortals with guardian shield destroy aggressive blink builds and let you end the game with a counter attack.
Kinda lost me here. Robo into blink stalker, and say you're strong against normal 3gate robo? I would be okay if you're talking about scouting phoenix and saying you have plenty of gas to get blink mobilized, but straight up transitioning into it isn't the strength of the build, its the opportunities for the midgame and needs its own section. 3gate robo with a 12gate gives you the mineral advantage that leaves you in equal shape for the midgame. A break-even build vs. build does not deserve a "strong against" mention.
Otherwise good writeup. Two eyebrow raises but rest was deserving of at least a discussion on its merits. I will additionally add that some 11gate 4warpgates will give you 3 pylons near-base/inbase when you don't have enough dps to kill them for a 6 stalker in-base attack at 5:35. Something to keep in mind on timings. That's all.
|
I was wondering when someone would make a topic on this build...
I personally tried it few times. I scout after core but if i do it I can't really make the second gate and therefore I die to 4 gates...also I always fallowed it with a quick 2 colossi push which always failed because of the travelling distance...
I might try this build again with no scout and fallowing it with blink stalkers
|
United Kingdom36160 Posts
It should absolutely be added to the OP that this build should not be used on maps where proxy gates are easily doable - Xel Naga and Shakuras spring to mind. It totally dies to proxy gates as you're not scouting.
That said, I keep seeing a lot of good players saying there are "better" 1 gate robo builds that don't cut probes and get the immortal out in time. Personally, I'm paranoid of various cheeses in PvP so I always scout on 9.
From playing around, I've found that with a 12 gate, I need to cut probes at 20 to get the immortal out in time. I also make a 2nd gas and I'll move guys out of it again for a while to be able to afford everything in time. Is there a better 1-gate robo build out there that doesn't rely on ridiculously late scouting and will still hold a 4-gate but can get more than 20 probes to start with?
|
The build is horrible, what about zealot/stalker pokes, any 2gate opening, any cheese and any high eco tech can beat this and chargelot/archon totally rolls it.
|
I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
|
On June 28 2011 22:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
well if your opponent just takes a second gas at 19, he will be ahead in minerals and gas. that just evens out the later robo.
I think this build is not really the solution for pvp. as pointed out it is weak against stargate; but even worse: it's weak against "standard play" like 1 gate robo or 3 gate robo. if your opponent doesnt freak out because of the 10 gate you will be sooo behind. especially because you have to spend your gas blindly on sentries and immortals. Day9 scouts with this build and can maybe adapt and be not as much behind or even switch it up to a 4 gate himself. but just playing blind like you and build a lot of sentries is just plain bad. The player with 1 sentry and fast colossus will always be ahead of you, because he can safely get colossus and defend his ramp with ff. he can just mass up colossus for a strong 1 base timing push with a lot of zealots and you will die. especially if you recommend teching to blink as well.
|
On June 28 2011 22:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
really it doesn't matter much when you get the robo up in robo vs robo.. Your colossus production is gas limited anyway so even if your robo bay is 50 secs later you can still have the same amount of colossi eventually...
Getting up the robo fast is important to be able to scout fast so you can adopt to things you see and is important against blink stalkers if you want to mass immortals asap.
That's why this build sucks imo because a 13 gate into robo has much better economy and it really doesn't matter that this Tyler build got the robo first, the colossus count will be the same anyways...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
