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On June 28 2011 22:14 r3tsa wrote:
The build is horrible, what about zealot/stalker pokes, any 2gate opening, any cheese and any high eco tech can beat this and chargelot/archon totally rolls it.
Zealot stalker poke? You go stalker -> zealot which lets you deal with that just fine.
The build as noted is weak against 2gates (although I haven''t tested it vs non-proxy adel style 2gates) and cheese. However they can 't know you're going to be doing this build when they make those decisions and thus it's playing probabilities in the early game. Are you scouting on 9 building an early gateway and zealot every game because you're afraid of cheese?
High eco tech vs a 10gate with saved chrono is risky in its own right. If someone is trying to meta game you mixing in 1gas 4gate should keep them honest.
How exactly does chargelot archon roll this? That build doesn't even get off the ground until ~10 minutes. That build is almost irrelevant to this opening as whatever midgame plan you have is going to be fully in effect by this time.
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On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:
First, your Chrono after pylon leaves to the same result that the pre-pylon's chrono, which is interesting. After this you spend 2 Chrono on Nexus for catching up with the number of probes of your opponent. Then you start to save energy because you want to Chronoboost Warpgate and Stalker at the same time. Maybe we can use the Chrono on the nexus instead of the Stalker if we are on a 4 player map and the opponent doesn't have found us already. This way we have a larger marge of error with our minerals. Do you think it's viable or it will delay the construction of the robo ?
I think getting the stalker out early is more crucial than getting warpgate on time. If you're looking for a chronoboost to cut I would shave one off the core before the stalker. Since you build a sentry from the gateway with this version it isn't as vital to have warpgate finished so early.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:
Second, i remark that you have listen Day9 at the 14:20 min of the daily when he say that he can sneak in a sentry by the Gateway at the 5 min mark ( of the game) instead of warping in when the research finish. You finish with the same number of sentry that Day9 but instead of 2 warped sentry you have one gateway sentry and one warped sentry. Is there any reason why you choose to do that ? Is it because of the recent patch for the warpgate research ?
Because in a crisis you can warp-in from the second gateway by delaying your second immortal and everything else is equal.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:
Lastly, i just love your follow up with blink. It's versatile, work well with the Observer and can be micro for more effectiveness.
I also remark that you doesn't make any deviation from the build you have make ( which is great) but your scouting information only come from your stalker. It's quite late for checking for a cheese like cannon rush. Can you upload a replay of this against Cannon Rush or 2 proxy gate zealot ?
I assume you mean a replay where I've won. Unfortunately these builds don't come up too frequently and all the games I've won were botched execution by my opponent who let me see their probe in my base before my assimilator went down and the games I lost were early games where I didn't scout the proxy because I didn't check those locations at that time (like between the naturals on shakuras).
If someone wants to play several games later while proxy gating me and see what is possible I'm totally down for it. I believe you can cancel your 17th probe and core, get a zealot and a forge and defend fine in most cases from proxy gateways and cannon rushes that aren't behind your mineral line.
As far as cannon rushes that are behind your mineral line and wall-in with 3 pylons I'm not terribly sure how you deal with them effectively with any build beyond chasing the scouting worker when it enters your base every game which seems stupid and certainly isn't viable with this opening.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:
Tyler, in the video, has wanted to scout, but like Day9 has remarked he delay his second gateway so much that if Mc has decide to attack with the 4 gate, he was relying only on 1 sentry, zealot, stalker and immortal to hold on, with only one warp-in available. I think this will be kind of rough.
That's why i prefer your build that the one of tyler, even if he was able to scout.
I agree
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:P.S. Thank you very much for this thread, i was searching one in the forum for helping me adapt this build with the recent patch. This is going to be my standart PvP 
Thanks for the kind words.
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I've been practicing this build a LOT lately because of how detailed and tight the timings all are. Most of the time now I can start the immortal at 5:05. I finally took it on the ladder a few days ago. The only small edit I made to it is taking the probe that built the cyber core and scouting the perimeter of my base first for cannons, then making the 16 pylon near my ramp, then scouting with it. Seems better than pulling a second probe to make a pylon that far forward (and I want that forward pylon so I can make the robo very close to the ramp).
...and the first time I tried it on ladder a guy did a (totally blind) proxy 2-gate on backwater gulch, hidden on the high ground near the 3rd between us. He actually scouted with two probes to accomplish this. He scouted me first and I scouted him last. By the time my first stalker popped out and was poking around my natural for proxies, he had 3 zealots running up my ramp.
Now everything in that game stacked against me, but in that exact situation it was just not really possible, I think, for me to defend that except by lucky scouting. So unless someone has an answer here (CAN you scout earlier? how does it affect the build?), I'm prepared to categorize this build as "risky" since it can lead to a potential build-order loss. In some sort of boX series, though, on the pro level, I think this is a great build to throw in. But as an every-time safe build for ladder I just don't know.
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On June 29 2011 03:38 GomJabbar wrote:
I've been practicing this build a LOT lately because of how detailed and tight the timings all are. Most of the time now I can start the immortal at 5:05. I finally took it on the ladder a few days ago. The only small edit I made to it is taking the probe that built the cyber core and scouting the perimeter of my base first for cannons, then making the 16 pylon near my ramp, then scouting with it. Seems better than pulling a second probe to make a pylon that far forward (and I want that forward pylon so I can make the robo very close to the ramp).
That doesn't seem like an edit, rather seems exactly what I suggested in the OP
You want to build your robo close to your ramp so your immortals can rally quickly but far enough back that a probe won't be able to run up and see it before getting killed by your initial gateway units. Typically I place my 16 pylon between my gateway and ramp with my scouting worker while scouting my base for proxies.
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On June 29 2011 04:23 Jaeger wrote:
That doesn't seem like an edit, rather seems exactly what I suggested in the OP
I had meant an edit to the build from the day[9] daily, in which he and Tyler both scout directly after the core (I believe?). Didn't notice that bit in the OP!
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First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
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On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote:
First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
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On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote:
First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
Would love to see the replays.
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On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote:
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
Yes When I tested this build in practice sessions I too noticed that any heavy phoenix play completely nullifies the defense against stalkers. It also allows the enemy vision up onto the high ground.
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Whats the timing on the second assimilator?, around 18? As you say its a tight build so I just wanted to be sure.
and another thing, you get 3 probes on each assimilator as soon as they are finished?
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On June 29 2011 08:08 Ihsahn wrote:
Whats the timing on the second assimilator?, around 18? As you say its a tight build so I just wanted to be sure.
and another thing, you get 3 probes on each assimilator as soon as they are finished?
Sorry I wrote gas edited it to say Assimilator now so it isn't confusing.
The timing is 21-22 basically as soon as you can place it without being scouted. The really thin timings all come into play before the second gas factors into things significantly.
It's all about the first immortal timing which is all about the robo timing and the third pylon timing.
I put 3 probes on each gas immediately since one of the goals of this opening is to gain a gas advantage over a standard opening.
I've toyed with the idea of starting with 2 on gas and not building a sentry from a gateway in order to get a faster scout out but I haven't tested it enough to recommend it.
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On June 29 2011 08:03 rampd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote:
You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Yes When I tested this build in practice sessions I too noticed that any heavy phoenix play completely nullifies the defense against stalkers. It also allows the enemy vision up onto the high ground.
Replays would be great.
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I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
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On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote:
I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
The term hard counter makes me cringe, but yes, Stargate plays are very good against this. However, you'll typically have enough time to get a good amount of stalkers and blink if you have good forcefields on your ramp. It certainly sucks when they go air, but it's not an auto-loss.
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On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote:
I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
No it's not obvious at all. It's all about the timings. It's not like you just you're just spawning a random number of immortals against phoenix and stalkers in a unit tester here and seeing how the battles work out.
That said I wouldn't be surprised if you could craft a stargate build that could blind hard counter this opening but that isn't the end of the story and even if it were I would want to see it executed or at the very least have a reliable bo for it.
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On June 28 2011 20:55 Danglars wrote:
I will additionally add that some 11gate 4warpgates will give you 3 pylons near-base/inbase when you don't have enough dps to kill them for a 6 stalker in-base attack at 5:35. Something to keep in mind on timings. That's all.
Hi danglez 8D
Altera and I have kind of dissected emyndri's 4gate and have decided that the only gas opener that can beat it is 3stalker->5stalker
Anyway, this build is far too n00b friendly and you sac way too much for someone with a brain to NOT take advantage of you. You get immediate disadvantage to other robo builds, stargate builds, etc. This build serves nothing more than a build order win vs 4gate and blink allin. If you are proudly making this your pvp standard then its only because you are lazy or frustrated.
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On June 29 2011 10:48 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote:
I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play. No it's not obvious at all. It's all about the timings. It's not like you just you're just spawning a random number of immortals against phoenix and stalkers in a unit tester here and seeing how the battles work out. That said I wouldn't be surprised if you could craft a stargate build that could blind hard counter this opening but that isn't the end of the story and even if it were I would want to see it executed or at the very least have a reliable bo for it.
I'm sorry if double posting is frowned upon or something but I can't be arsed to format this in my last post on my cell phone.
Anyway, this guys post is just beyond naive. Stargate is NOT a hardcounter to robo play as the robo player, with proper scouting, can get stalkers and blink and expand and hold off a 3gate stargate push, but this build offers no such scouting. 3gate stargate would absolutely gank this build 100% of the time assuming both players have a brain.
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I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate.
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On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote:
I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate.
The 15/16 scout means you're sometimes not going to spot proxy gates or cannon rushes until pretty late. In my own game were I tried this on ladder, because I scouted him last on a 4-player map with a 16 scout, I couldn't respond to his double proxy gates in time. The zealots arrived shortly after my stalker popped out.
The advantages this offers is a MUCH faster robo, and a faster 2nd gas. If you do this build and he 3-stalker rushes, you're ahead in tech.
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On June 30 2011 02:10 GomJabbar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote:
I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate. The 15/16 scout means you're sometimes not going to spot proxy gates or cannon rushes until pretty late. In my own game were I tried this on ladder, because I scouted him last on a 4-player map with a 16 scout, I couldn't respond to his double proxy gates in time. The zealots arrived shortly after my stalker popped out. The advantages this offers is a MUCH faster robo, and a faster 2nd gas. If you do this build and he 3-stalker rushes, you're ahead in tech.
I bet you could take like your 10 or 12 probe and check the outskirts of your base for proxies, when I was messing around with it scouting with the 12 probe didn't seem to tilt the build too badly.
I take my gas in a 3 Stalker Rush immediately after starting the first Stalker at 22, this takes it after starting the first stalker at like 21? So I doubt it mines meaningfully more gas, maybe? 50 due to the 12 gas, but I think that's generous. The Robo is much faster principally because it's cutting the gas of +2 Stalkers. If that's a safe cut then okay, but I'd be pretty uncomfortable totally surrendering map presence like that. If you go Robo before Sentry is the Sentry even done before the 3 Stalkers could arrive at your base?
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EPT
