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Overview This opening was created by Day[9] and popularized by Day[9] and Liquid'Tyler. I've modified it ever so slightly to bring it up to date with the current patch.
This build tries to gain a tech advantage and army strength advantage by getting a very fast robo and very fast 2nd gas. It sacrifices early mineral economy, scouting, army size, mobility, and aggression.
Every strategy guide needs an image
The Opening Build
- 9 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 11 Assimilator
- 12 Chrono Boost Nexus x2
- 15 Cybernetics Core (Chrono Boost x3)*
- 16 Pylon
- Stalker (Chrono Boost)
- Warp Gate Research (Chrono Boost x3)
- 22 Assimilator (cut probes you should have 20)
- Robotics Facility
- Zealot
- Gateway
- Pylon
- Sentry
- Immortal (Chrono Boost)**
- Pylon
- * You can scout here, although the loss of minerals make the timings super tight
- ** Note that you'll reach the 25 energy for this Chrono Boost during the production
The probe scout Your probe scout is going to be so delayed that getting to his base is almost meaningless, the most information you're going to get that's useful is likely to be his spawning location on a >2 player map.
This information is not very interesting as it can usually be gleaned from indirect scouting anyways by checking the time of his probe and later confirmed with your first stalker.
If you do scout his base and see no gas indicating a cheese it's far to late to react to it anyways.
That said this probe scout is best used for scouting around your own base and common proxy locations like between the naturals on shakuras or at the watchtower on delta quadrant.
Since you have a 10gate you actually can put up a defense against a proxy gate but you're going to have to deviate heavily and cancel your core immediately, pull guys off gas, cancel any building probes, etc. Typical crisis management.
Also you can scout the direction his scouting probe arrives from if it hasn't yet and that can be quite helpful in narrowing down his spawn location.
The first stalker You'll get your first stalker out very quickly with this build, in fact getting this stalker out asap is core to this build.
Many players seem content to let their first probe die in order to scout your base as long as possible. If they stay in your base you're going to have kill it off with your stalker before taking your gas.
This stalker is going to give you map control against almost any normal opener. Use it to bully probes and early zealots off the map and to prevent any super early close proxy pylons from going up. Take control of watch towers on maps with meaningful watch towers.
You can also use it to confirm his spawn location and if he is playing ultra defensively to force out an early forcefield from a sentry.
Followup Usually you'll want to build a second immortal and then an observer 2 immortals at the top of your ramp with sentries will keep you safe from any early attack.
Your obs will let you defend early dts and scout his tech/army composition/army positioning and let you safely move down your ramp in order to expand/clear out proxy pylons and probes.
If he is going blink stalker you'll want to get a 3rd immortal.
From here you have several options:
You can try to kill your opponent with an early colossus immortal zealot push.
You can use your strong slow army (relative to stalker based armies) to take an expansion
Or my personal favorite exploiting your early gas advantage to transition into 3gate blink stalker. This makes this opener quite robust against phoenix openings which are often said to counter robo openings and 2-3 immortals with guardian shield destroy aggressive blink builds and let you end the game with a counter attack.
Strong Against
- 4 gate openings
- Blink stalker openings
- DT openings
- 3 gate robo openings
Weak Against
- Cannon rushes
- Proxy gateways
- FE openings?
- 2 gate zealot openings?
Gas Steal A gas steal vs a 10gate with saved chrono is not very common but if it occurs I think you're pretty much obligated to switch into a different build. Luckily a 4gate is still quite easy to switch into and very strong from this position. Map Concerns This build relies on being able to forcefield your ramp against early attacks in order to not be overwhelmed but numbers. This build should not be used on maps without the ability to block off with one forcefield.
Key Notes This build relies upon very thin timings. If you mess up anything early such as chrono boost timing or worker splits it's probably best to cut your losses and switch to a more standard build as quickly as possible.
A typical aggressive 4gate (either the 13gate 5cb on core or the 10gate 4cb on core) finish their first full warp-in at 5:50.
This build will finish its first immortal at 5:42 if done optimally. Outside of yabot it typically finishes for me right around 5:50 and if you're slow on any part your immortal will be delayed proportionally.
You can't produce immeditately from your second gateway and have enough money to make an second immortal without a bump.
Rule of thumb: build a pylon after every immortal.
Ultra Refinements Unlike most openers it is correct in this case to build your pylon slightly after 100 minerals if building it exactly on 100 would waste undue mining time (which it usually would).
Since minerals are very tight in this build you'll want to build your first pylon next to your nexus so that you can return to mining as quickly as possible. I recommend leaving a 1 space between your pylon and nexus so your probe can quickly get out, build a structure, and return to mining without having to navigate around your structures.
You want to build your robo close to your ramp so your immortals can rally quickly but far enough back that a probe won't be able to run up and see it before getting killed by your initial gateway units. Typically I place my 16 pylon between my gateway and ramp with my scouting worker while scouting my base for proxies.
If they haven't attacked or scouted your tech by ~6:20 pull your immortal back from the ramp so you don't give free information to a suicidal scout probe.
On early chronoboost: + Show Spoiler + cb before pylon 10pylon 10gate 0:49 finish 9th probe 1:00 finish 10th probe 1:21 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:35 gas (finish 2:05) 2:26 core 5:26 warpgate tech finish 2:40 15 probe finish 5:42 immortal finish
0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish
Essentially you get +14 seconds of mining time by chronoboosting probes before pylon. A probe mines about 2/3 minerals/second which gives you around 9-10 extra minerals. This manifests itself as a 2 second faster assimilator. However you delay your gateway and lose 10 seconds of probe production. As you get your immortals at the same time but get your 15th probe stalker and warpgate sooner I believe not chronoboosting until after gas is the clear winner.
Replays and VODs
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You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
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On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote: You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly.
I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out.
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I have used this build quite a few times on the ladder (mid diamond) and although I have no trouble against blink and 4gate openings, 3/2 gate robo openings into 1-base colossi rushes (which are very common nowadays) make it very very difficult for me to gain somesort of advantage over my opponent. I cannot just attack and bust his ramp because he will a) either delay me with forcefields till his colossus comes out or b) just split my army at the ramp with forcefields and kill it off gradually with a zealot heavy composition.
I've spotted Tyler go for a slightly more economic version of this build once he's absolutely sure that no 4gate is coming (I think it was in a game against Naniwa in the HsC#3) and then make a prism, which he probably (my speculation) intended to use to drop immortals onto the colossi/sentries or into the mineral line. Despite all of that, I still find myself in a rather uncomfortable position against a 2/3 gate robo where I absolutely -have- to deal damage unless I want to play from behind.
I have tried transitioning out of the build early (once I'm relatively sure that no 4gate is coming) into a very early 2-colossi timing push with no immortals at all, and although it might work on close position spawns, the traveling distance on most maps will give your opponent enough time to make his own colossus and just play it safe from there.
In concusion, I'd -love- to use this build, but I seem to be a bit lost against players that use a standard robo opening.
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Hello Jaeger, this is FlatLine
anyways I've seen him play around with this build multiple times. This build seems pretty solid from my POV.
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On June 28 2011 15:41 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote: You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly. I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out.
Stargate play is not void rays, it is normally 3-4 pheonix. They will lift the sentrys up and kill them and then lift the 2 immortals up. Gee Gee. I.E. Huk vs Naniwa Homestory cup game 5.
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Wow. Day9 is brilliant. Adds a breath of fresh air to the current PvP matchup!
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Nice, I just stole this for my PvP. Good writeup.
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I don't like builds susceptible to cheeses, in fact, I don't approve of any builds which are like "hell, I'll expand now and he won't come check it and I win. Damn, he came? cheese noob!".
With that said, I think I might try this one, but never play it in a CW or something...
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On June 28 2011 16:02 Halcyondaze wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:41 Mikelius wrote:On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote: You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Could be, but I think you have a much beefier army when you attack the he will at most have the single void ray out. And 2 immortals can do quite a bit of damage very quickly. I may be wrong, would have to look at the timings, but since the build sacrifices so much early econ, and the regular 2-3 gate stargate play is more of a mid game push style you should have the upper hand if you attack as soon as your 2nd immortal pops out. Stargate play is not void rays, it is normally 3-4 pheonix. They will lift the sentrys up and kill them and then lift the 2 immortals up. Gee Gee. I.E. Huk vs Naniwa Homestory cup game 5.
Since vods/replays aren't up yet for that game I can't compare timings. Since there is no standard phoenix opening in pvp as far as I know I can't test timings myself so the best I can do is go to the last pro level phoenix opening pvp I have the rep for.
Liquid'Tyler vs oGsMC from MLG Columbus @ Metalopolis
4 phoenix in close air positions get to MC's base at 8 minutes and Tyler has:
3gates 1stargate 4 phoenix 4 stalkers 4 zealots and 26 probes
In the last game I played with this opener at 8 minutes I had:
3gates 1robo 4 stalkers 2 sentries 2 immortals 2 zealots 1 observer and 24 probes with blink ~50%.
and my transition was pretty sloppy I could've had the same faster or more stuff. If I just went for straight up 3gate stalker instead of fast blink it would have had considerably more units but that's a choice you make blindly.
From watching the game you're citing live I recall that the build nani did had much less gas than this one and so he had many zealots but I don't recall the timing of the attack.
Remember that getting 4 phoenix is a bigger investment than getting 2 immortals: 750m 550g vs 700m 300g
Until shown evidence to the contrary I don't think this build is strong against phoenix openings but I don't think it's particularly weak either.
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On June 28 2011 16:49 Vogin wrote: I don't like builds susceptible to cheeses, in fact, I don't approve of any builds which are like "hell, I'll expand now and he won't come check it and I win. Damn, he came? cheese noob!".
With that said, I think I might try this one, but never play it in a CW or something...
FWIW you start checking for proxies at ~2:30 which is before standard 12/13 gateway -> scout will get to the opponent's base most of the time. Since you 10gated your situation isn't quite as risky as it might first appear. In the end early game involves a lot of playing probabilities. If you're really playing a build that isn't susceptible to cheese it's going to be behind against standard or greedy play.
That said if you do happen to miss the proxy gates and 2 zealots walk into your base as your first stalker pops out it sucks.
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I have look at your replay and I relook the Daily for the 6th time, just because I'm in a mood to compare your build to the ones of Day9 and Tyler
First, your Chrono after pylon leaves to the same result that the pre-pylon's chrono, which is interesting. After this you spend 2 Chrono on Nexus for catching up with the number of probes of your opponent. Then you start to save energy because you want to Chronoboost Warpgate and Stalker at the same time. Maybe we can use the Chrono on the nexus instead of the Stalker if we are on a 4 player map and the opponent doesn't have found us already. This way we have a larger marge of error with our minerals. Do you think it's viable or it will delay the construction of the robo ?
Second, i remark that you have listen Day9 at the 14:20 min of the daily when he say that he can sneak in a sentry by the Gateway at the 5 min mark ( of the game) instead of warping in when the research finish. You finish with the same number of sentry that Day9 but instead of 2 warped sentry you have one gateway sentry and one warped sentry. Is there any reason why you choose to do that ? Is it because of the recent patch for the warpgate research ?
Lastly, i just love your follow up with blink. It's versatile, work well with the Observer and can be micro for more effectiveness.
I also remark that you doesn't make any deviation from the build you have make ( which is great) but your scouting information only come from your stalker. It's quite late for checking for a cheese like cannon rush. Can you upload a replay of this against Cannon Rush or 2 proxy gate zealot ?
Tyler, in the video, has wanted to scout, but like Day9 has remarked he delay his second gateway so much that if Mc has decide to attack with the 4 gate, he was relying only on 1 sentry, zealot, stalker and immortal to hold on, with only one warp-in available. I think this will be kind of rough. That's why i prefer your build that the one of tyler, even if he was able to scout.
P.S. Thank you very much for this thread, i was searching one in the forum for helping me adapt this build with the recent patch. This is going to be my standart PvP
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I really don't see the point of this build. First of all it's just unsafe to not scout in PvP. A 10 gate without the intention of making a zealot will help absolutely nothing in holding off cheeses. Sure it's easy to make tech builds that hold the 4gate by cutting the scouting probe but that is risky and bad play. You will lose more games to cheese then you win by being safer against other things. Also what is the point of doing a game that is intended for long game play (as robo is) that heavily cuts probes early on. The mineral loss for cutting probes to get a 10 gate AND chronoing really late is quite much, especially when combined with the cut at 20 probes.
There are better robo builds out there that stop a 4 gate just as well but don't rely on gimmicks as 10 gate, probe cutting and not scouting... The only reason this build is even considered as being useful at all is probably because Tyler won a game against MC with it. That game however had nothing to do with the build and was just a fluke as MC got surprised by a midgame push when trying to expand.
4 gating is much easier to scout in this patch then the previous because a 4 gate doesn't chronoboost the gateway anymore.. Therefore there really is no need to sacrifice economy to be able to beat it, you can simply adjust after scouting, for example by going gate-gate-robo instead of gate robo gate.
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Or my personal favorite exploiting your early gas advantage to transition into 3gate blink stalker. This makes this opener quite robust against phoenix openings which are often said to counter robo openings and 2-3 immortals with guardian shield destroy aggressive blink builds and let you end the game with a counter attack. Kinda lost me here. Robo into blink stalker, and say you're strong against normal 3gate robo? I would be okay if you're talking about scouting phoenix and saying you have plenty of gas to get blink mobilized, but straight up transitioning into it isn't the strength of the build, its the opportunities for the midgame and needs its own section. 3gate robo with a 12gate gives you the mineral advantage that leaves you in equal shape for the midgame. A break-even build vs. build does not deserve a "strong against" mention.
Otherwise good writeup. Two eyebrow raises but rest was deserving of at least a discussion on its merits. I will additionally add that some 11gate 4warpgates will give you 3 pylons near-base/inbase when you don't have enough dps to kill them for a 6 stalker in-base attack at 5:35. Something to keep in mind on timings. That's all.
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I was wondering when someone would make a topic on this build... I personally tried it few times. I scout after core but if i do it I can't really make the second gate and therefore I die to 4 gates...also I always fallowed it with a quick 2 colossi push which always failed because of the travelling distance... I might try this build again with no scout and fallowing it with blink stalkers
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
It should absolutely be added to the OP that this build should not be used on maps where proxy gates are easily doable - Xel Naga and Shakuras spring to mind. It totally dies to proxy gates as you're not scouting.
That said, I keep seeing a lot of good players saying there are "better" 1 gate robo builds that don't cut probes and get the immortal out in time. Personally, I'm paranoid of various cheeses in PvP so I always scout on 9.
From playing around, I've found that with a 12 gate, I need to cut probes at 20 to get the immortal out in time. I also make a 2nd gas and I'll move guys out of it again for a while to be able to afford everything in time. Is there a better 1-gate robo build out there that doesn't rely on ridiculously late scouting and will still hold a 4-gate but can get more than 20 probes to start with?
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The build is horrible, what about zealot/stalker pokes, any 2gate opening, any cheese and any high eco tech can beat this and chargelot/archon totally rolls it.
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I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
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On June 28 2011 22:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
well if your opponent just takes a second gas at 19, he will be ahead in minerals and gas. that just evens out the later robo.
I think this build is not really the solution for pvp. as pointed out it is weak against stargate; but even worse: it's weak against "standard play" like 1 gate robo or 3 gate robo. if your opponent doesnt freak out because of the 10 gate you will be sooo behind. especially because you have to spend your gas blindly on sentries and immortals. Day9 scouts with this build and can maybe adapt and be not as much behind or even switch it up to a 4 gate himself. but just playing blind like you and build a lot of sentries is just plain bad. The player with 1 sentry and fast colossus will always be ahead of you, because he can safely get colossus and defend his ramp with ff. he can just mass up colossus for a strong 1 base timing push with a lot of zealots and you will die. especially if you recommend teching to blink as well.
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On June 28 2011 22:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've played this build quite a few times since the Daily that discussed it. I think it's a pretty clever idea, and it really does hold a 4-gate just great, but I've more or less given up on it because (1) I'm uncomfortable playing blind and (2) it shatters into a million, billion microatoms if you make the slightest mistake. Also, 4-gate openings are getting less common since the last patch, and I've lost several games where my opponent did 3-gate robo and teched straight to colossus - I'm sure that's just because I'm bad, since 3-gate robo gets the robo up so much later than this build, but it's enough to deter me.
really it doesn't matter much when you get the robo up in robo vs robo.. Your colossus production is gas limited anyway so even if your robo bay is 50 secs later you can still have the same amount of colossi eventually... Getting up the robo fast is important to be able to scout fast so you can adopt to things you see and is important against blink stalkers if you want to mass immortals asap.
That's why this build sucks imo because a 13 gate into robo has much better economy and it really doesn't matter that this Tyler build got the robo first, the colossus count will be the same anyways...
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On June 28 2011 22:14 r3tsa wrote: The build is horrible, what about zealot/stalker pokes, any 2gate opening, any cheese and any high eco tech can beat this and chargelot/archon totally rolls it.
Zealot stalker poke? You go stalker -> zealot which lets you deal with that just fine.
The build as noted is weak against 2gates (although I haven''t tested it vs non-proxy adel style 2gates) and cheese. However they can 't know you're going to be doing this build when they make those decisions and thus it's playing probabilities in the early game. Are you scouting on 9 building an early gateway and zealot every game because you're afraid of cheese?
High eco tech vs a 10gate with saved chrono is risky in its own right. If someone is trying to meta game you mixing in 1gas 4gate should keep them honest.
How exactly does chargelot archon roll this? That build doesn't even get off the ground until ~10 minutes. That build is almost irrelevant to this opening as whatever midgame plan you have is going to be fully in effect by this time.
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On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote: First, your Chrono after pylon leaves to the same result that the pre-pylon's chrono, which is interesting. After this you spend 2 Chrono on Nexus for catching up with the number of probes of your opponent. Then you start to save energy because you want to Chronoboost Warpgate and Stalker at the same time. Maybe we can use the Chrono on the nexus instead of the Stalker if we are on a 4 player map and the opponent doesn't have found us already. This way we have a larger marge of error with our minerals. Do you think it's viable or it will delay the construction of the robo ?
I think getting the stalker out early is more crucial than getting warpgate on time. If you're looking for a chronoboost to cut I would shave one off the core before the stalker. Since you build a sentry from the gateway with this version it isn't as vital to have warpgate finished so early.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote: Second, i remark that you have listen Day9 at the 14:20 min of the daily when he say that he can sneak in a sentry by the Gateway at the 5 min mark ( of the game) instead of warping in when the research finish. You finish with the same number of sentry that Day9 but instead of 2 warped sentry you have one gateway sentry and one warped sentry. Is there any reason why you choose to do that ? Is it because of the recent patch for the warpgate research ?
Because in a crisis you can warp-in from the second gateway by delaying your second immortal and everything else is equal.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote: Lastly, i just love your follow up with blink. It's versatile, work well with the Observer and can be micro for more effectiveness.
I also remark that you doesn't make any deviation from the build you have make ( which is great) but your scouting information only come from your stalker. It's quite late for checking for a cheese like cannon rush. Can you upload a replay of this against Cannon Rush or 2 proxy gate zealot ?
I assume you mean a replay where I've won. Unfortunately these builds don't come up too frequently and all the games I've won were botched execution by my opponent who let me see their probe in my base before my assimilator went down and the games I lost were early games where I didn't scout the proxy because I didn't check those locations at that time (like between the naturals on shakuras).
If someone wants to play several games later while proxy gating me and see what is possible I'm totally down for it. I believe you can cancel your 17th probe and core, get a zealot and a forge and defend fine in most cases from proxy gateways and cannon rushes that aren't behind your mineral line.
As far as cannon rushes that are behind your mineral line and wall-in with 3 pylons I'm not terribly sure how you deal with them effectively with any build beyond chasing the scouting worker when it enters your base every game which seems stupid and certainly isn't viable with this opening.
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote: Tyler, in the video, has wanted to scout, but like Day9 has remarked he delay his second gateway so much that if Mc has decide to attack with the 4 gate, he was relying only on 1 sentry, zealot, stalker and immortal to hold on, with only one warp-in available. I think this will be kind of rough. That's why i prefer your build that the one of tyler, even if he was able to scout.
I agree
On June 28 2011 17:36 Schtroumpfs wrote:P.S. Thank you very much for this thread, i was searching one in the forum for helping me adapt this build with the recent patch. This is going to be my standart PvP
Thanks for the kind words.
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I've been practicing this build a LOT lately because of how detailed and tight the timings all are. Most of the time now I can start the immortal at 5:05. I finally took it on the ladder a few days ago. The only small edit I made to it is taking the probe that built the cyber core and scouting the perimeter of my base first for cannons, then making the 16 pylon near my ramp, then scouting with it. Seems better than pulling a second probe to make a pylon that far forward (and I want that forward pylon so I can make the robo very close to the ramp).
...and the first time I tried it on ladder a guy did a (totally blind) proxy 2-gate on backwater gulch, hidden on the high ground near the 3rd between us. He actually scouted with two probes to accomplish this. He scouted me first and I scouted him last. By the time my first stalker popped out and was poking around my natural for proxies, he had 3 zealots running up my ramp.
Now everything in that game stacked against me, but in that exact situation it was just not really possible, I think, for me to defend that except by lucky scouting. So unless someone has an answer here (CAN you scout earlier? how does it affect the build?), I'm prepared to categorize this build as "risky" since it can lead to a potential build-order loss. In some sort of boX series, though, on the pro level, I think this is a great build to throw in. But as an every-time safe build for ladder I just don't know.
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On June 29 2011 03:38 GomJabbar wrote: I've been practicing this build a LOT lately because of how detailed and tight the timings all are. Most of the time now I can start the immortal at 5:05. I finally took it on the ladder a few days ago. The only small edit I made to it is taking the probe that built the cyber core and scouting the perimeter of my base first for cannons, then making the 16 pylon near my ramp, then scouting with it. Seems better than pulling a second probe to make a pylon that far forward (and I want that forward pylon so I can make the robo very close to the ramp).
That doesn't seem like an edit, rather seems exactly what I suggested in the OP
You want to build your robo close to your ramp so your immortals can rally quickly but far enough back that a probe won't be able to run up and see it before getting killed by your initial gateway units. Typically I place my 16 pylon between my gateway and ramp with my scouting worker while scouting my base for proxies.
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On June 29 2011 04:23 Jaeger wrote: That doesn't seem like an edit, rather seems exactly what I suggested in the OP I had meant an edit to the build from the day[9] daily, in which he and Tyler both scout directly after the core (I believe?). Didn't notice that bit in the OP!
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First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
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On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote: First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
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On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote: First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble.
Would love to see the replays.
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On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote: You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport
Yes When I tested this build in practice sessions I too noticed that any heavy phoenix play completely nullifies the defense against stalkers. It also allows the enemy vision up onto the high ground.
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Whats the timing on the second assimilator?, around 18? As you say its a tight build so I just wanted to be sure. and another thing, you get 3 probes on each assimilator as soon as they are finished?
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On June 29 2011 08:08 Ihsahn wrote: Whats the timing on the second assimilator?, around 18? As you say its a tight build so I just wanted to be sure. and another thing, you get 3 probes on each assimilator as soon as they are finished?
Sorry I wrote gas edited it to say Assimilator now so it isn't confusing. The timing is 21-22 basically as soon as you can place it without being scouted. The really thin timings all come into play before the second gas factors into things significantly.
It's all about the first immortal timing which is all about the robo timing and the third pylon timing.
I put 3 probes on each gas immediately since one of the goals of this opening is to gain a gas advantage over a standard opening.
I've toyed with the idea of starting with 2 on gas and not building a sentry from a gateway in order to get a faster scout out but I haven't tested it enough to recommend it.
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On June 29 2011 08:03 rampd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 15:27 Halcyondaze wrote: You may want to add weak against Starport play. With the heavy reliance on Immortals I can see this getting roflstomped by 3gate starport, or 4gate starport Yes When I tested this build in practice sessions I too noticed that any heavy phoenix play completely nullifies the defense against stalkers. It also allows the enemy vision up onto the high ground.
Replays would be great.
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I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
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On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote: I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
The term hard counter makes me cringe, but yes, Stargate plays are very good against this. However, you'll typically have enough time to get a good amount of stalkers and blink if you have good forcefields on your ramp. It certainly sucks when they go air, but it's not an auto-loss.
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On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote: I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play.
No it's not obvious at all. It's all about the timings. It's not like you just you're just spawning a random number of immortals against phoenix and stalkers in a unit tester here and seeing how the battles work out.
That said I wouldn't be surprised if you could craft a stargate build that could blind hard counter this opening but that isn't the end of the story and even if it were I would want to see it executed or at the very least have a reliable bo for it.
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On June 28 2011 20:55 Danglars wrote: I will additionally add that some 11gate 4warpgates will give you 3 pylons near-base/inbase when you don't have enough dps to kill them for a 6 stalker in-base attack at 5:35. Something to keep in mind on timings. That's all.
Hi danglez 8D
Altera and I have kind of dissected emyndri's 4gate and have decided that the only gas opener that can beat it is 3stalker->5stalker
Anyway, this build is far too n00b friendly and you sac way too much for someone with a brain to NOT take advantage of you. You get immediate disadvantage to other robo builds, stargate builds, etc. This build serves nothing more than a build order win vs 4gate and blink allin. If you are proudly making this your pvp standard then its only because you are lazy or frustrated.
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On June 29 2011 10:48 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 09:47 rampd wrote: I practiced it about 3 weeks ago. I don't have any replays on me, but it is kind of obvious that if the immortals were lifted up wouldn't that essentially make the non robo play stronger? The stargate is a hard counter to the robo play. No it's not obvious at all. It's all about the timings. It's not like you just you're just spawning a random number of immortals against phoenix and stalkers in a unit tester here and seeing how the battles work out. That said I wouldn't be surprised if you could craft a stargate build that could blind hard counter this opening but that isn't the end of the story and even if it were I would want to see it executed or at the very least have a reliable bo for it. I'm sorry if double posting is frowned upon or something but I can't be arsed to format this in my last post on my cell phone.
Anyway, this guys post is just beyond naive. Stargate is NOT a hardcounter to robo play as the robo player, with proper scouting, can get stalkers and blink and expand and hold off a 3gate stargate push, but this build offers no such scouting. 3gate stargate would absolutely gank this build 100% of the time assuming both players have a brain.
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I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate.
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On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote: I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate. The 15/16 scout means you're sometimes not going to spot proxy gates or cannon rushes until pretty late. In my own game were I tried this on ladder, because I scouted him last on a 4-player map with a 16 scout, I couldn't respond to his double proxy gates in time. The zealots arrived shortly after my stalker popped out.
The advantages this offers is a MUCH faster robo, and a faster 2nd gas. If you do this build and he 3-stalker rushes, you're ahead in tech.
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On June 30 2011 02:10 GomJabbar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote: I don't know why people keep saying this build has "no scouting." You scout on 15, with your fast first Stalker, and you can scout with an Obs if you see a 4 Gate isn't coming.
What I'd like to know is what advantages this offers over a 3 Stalker Rush opening, which also gives early map control and beats 4 Gate. The 15/16 scout means you're sometimes not going to spot proxy gates or cannon rushes until pretty late. In my own game were I tried this on ladder, because I scouted him last on a 4-player map with a 16 scout, I couldn't respond to his double proxy gates in time. The zealots arrived shortly after my stalker popped out. The advantages this offers is a MUCH faster robo, and a faster 2nd gas. If you do this build and he 3-stalker rushes, you're ahead in tech.
I bet you could take like your 10 or 12 probe and check the outskirts of your base for proxies, when I was messing around with it scouting with the 12 probe didn't seem to tilt the build too badly.
I take my gas in a 3 Stalker Rush immediately after starting the first Stalker at 22, this takes it after starting the first stalker at like 21? So I doubt it mines meaningfully more gas, maybe? 50 due to the 12 gas, but I think that's generous. The Robo is much faster principally because it's cutting the gas of +2 Stalkers. If that's a safe cut then okay, but I'd be pretty uncomfortable totally surrendering map presence like that. If you go Robo before Sentry is the Sentry even done before the 3 Stalkers could arrive at your base?
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On June 29 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote: First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble. Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
I rewatched that game later and Tyler lost by 1 second. Literally 1 second. If his sentry had come out 1 second faster he would have held it off with a FF on bottom of ramp preventing warp in.
This build is time sensitive to the extreme. It is one of the most extreme razor thin builds in the game.
You need to execute it flawlessly to make it in time for the 4 gate.
On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote:
I bet you could take like your 10 or 12 probe and check the outskirts of your base for proxies, when I was messing around with it scouting with the 12 probe didn't seem to tilt the build too badly.
I take my gas in a 3 Stalker Rush immediately after starting the first Stalker at 22, this takes it after starting the first stalker at like 21? So I doubt it mines meaningfully more gas, maybe? 50 due to the 12 gas, but I think that's generous. The Robo is much faster principally because it's cutting the gas of +2 Stalkers. If that's a safe cut then okay, but I'd be pretty uncomfortable totally surrendering map presence like that. If you go Robo before Sentry is the Sentry even done before the 3 Stalkers could arrive at your base?
You can not take the 10 or 12 probe to scout. You can barely afford to send the cyber core scout. You need every last probe mining as much as possible very badly. A single probe missing damages this build too much.
A probe scouting basically means 1 less gateway.
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he can be a lot more in your face with the 4 gate and then you will have a harder time.
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On June 29 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote: First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble. Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
OK i've finally gotten the VOD to load and found that game. You can see it starts at ~1 hour 28 minutes [VOD]
Let's examine his build: The vod cuts on to the game while its already in progress so we have to work backwards to figure out the first couple timings.
He's chronoboosting and it runs out at 1:05 which means it started at 0:45. So he chronoboosted at 8 when his nexus hit 25 energy (45 * .5625), which leads us to expect a 10 pylon opening. His pylon finishes at 1:21 which means it started at 0:56 and is consistent with a 10 pylon.
0:45 cb nexus @ 8 supply 0:56 pylon @ 10 supply 1:21 gateway @ 10 supply 1:37 gas @ 11 supply 1:46 cb nexus @ 12 supply 2:15 cb nexus @ 14 supply 2:27 core @ 15 supply -> scout 2:46 pylon @ 16 supply 3:17 stalker @ 20 supply 3:18 warpgate tech @ 20 supply cb gateway @ 20 supply 3:53 2nd gas @ 22 supply 3:57 robo @ 22 supply 4:01 probe @ 23 supply 4:09 zealot @ 25 supply 4:20 pylon @ 25 supply 4:26 probe @ 26 supply 4:45 probe @ 27 supply 5:03 immortal @ 31 supply 5:04 cb on robo 5:05 sentry @ 33 supply 5:18 gateway @ 33 supply 5:28 cb on robo 5:30 pylon @ 33 supply 5:41 immortal finishes (he has enough money to make 2nd immortal but not enough supply and his robo is cbing nothing) 5:42 sentry finishes 5:56 2nd immortal starts 5:58 warpgate tech finishes
mc's first warp-in finishes @ 5:52
Now I will contend that the chrono before pylon 10p10gate is inferior to the 9pylon chrono on 12 opening however it's not a huge deal.
from the OP: cb before pylon 10pylon 10gate 0:49 finish 9th probe 1:00 finish 10th probe 1:21 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:35 gas (finish 2:05) 2:26 core 5:26 warpgate tech finish 2:40 15 probe finish 5:42 immortal finish
Notice that the build outlined in this thread, even with that slightly different opening, gets 2 gateways with a finished warpgate tech @ 5:26 (and 5:22 with the 9pylon variation).
Tyler's build was very interesting that game and while it was obviously inspired by this opening it is NOT this opening. His was a much greedier 1gate robo without cutting probes at 20. He doesn't even start his second gateway until after there are 2 pylons built at the bottom of his ramp. He spends 3 chronoboosts on his nexus instead of 2, he spends 2 chronoboosts on his first immortal instead of 1. If he hadn't been supply blocked his 2nd immortal would've been out at ~6:37 which incidentally is exactly when his robo is destroyed and the game is already lost. It's nice to get a 2nd immortal so quickly but in this case ultimately useless.
A build that spends ZERO chronoboosts on warpgate tech has 1 gateway and builds 23 probes is NOT the same as a build that spends 3 chronoboosts on warpgate tech has 2 gateways and cuts probes at 20.
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hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
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On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote: hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
Literally the entire focus of this opening is on defending against a 4 gate.
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On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote: hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
Well then ur doing it wrong.
Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2
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Ha! I have been doing this wrong all along!
I skimmed through that daily a back while and did this but I always scouted and had a regular gateway timming. I guess the people that 4 gated me are just bad because I used to win with this.
Thanks for the post
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On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote: hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2
i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
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On July 01 2011 13:16 terranuapart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote: hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2 i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
Would love to see the replays.
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On July 01 2011 13:16 terranuapart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote: hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2 i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
Tyler does a different build though. His is more greedy which kinda makes it stronger against a lot of other builds but weakens him slightly to 4 gate. From a numerical perspective it defeats 4 gate completely. Only player skill holds this build back.
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Î have a question to your timings. I tried it about 20 times now but it seems impossible to get a Gateway at 1:16... 0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish
What is my mistake in this matter or are those times realistically achievable?
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On July 03 2011 22:39 blowfish wrote: Î have a question to your timings. I tried it about 20 times now but it seems impossible to get a Gateway at 1:16... 0:51 finish 9th probe 1:11 finish 10th probe 1:16 gateway 1:24 start 11th probe 1:37 gas (finsh 2:07) 2:22 core 2:31 15 probe finish 5:22 warpgate tech finish 5:42 immortal finish
What is my mistake in this matter or are those times realistically achievable?
The early game timings depend heavily on the map's mineral layout. I used xel'naga caverns for all my testing.
Also if you want fastest possible building placement I recommend putting your probe in position pressing b, then spamming left click and g on the ground next to your probe.
Those times are based on a test run which starts ~8:50 in this replay.
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hmm the thought is good but the replays arent reliable... the 4g into blinkstalkers wasnt even a real 4g push since he backed off before even setting a single pylon outside ur base.... and on the other 4g replay the guy gg after u killed his pylonprobe.... i mean, none of ur replays treats a simple solid 4g which imo is the most important tactic to handle since its the standard build in pvp.
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I never actually saw this build, but how well does it do against my standard opening, the Younghwa 3 Stalker build?
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On July 04 2011 07:37 IIIOmegaIII wrote: hmm the thought is good but the replays arent reliable... the 4g into blinkstalkers wasnt even a real 4g push since he backed off before even setting a single pylon outside ur base.... and on the other 4g replay the guy gg after u killed his pylonprobe.... i mean, none of ur replays treats a simple solid 4g which imo is the most important tactic to handle since its the standard build in pvp.
Someone want to come 4gate me?
On July 04 2011 07:40 iTzAnglory wrote: I never actually saw this build, but how well does it do against my standard opening, the Younghwa 3 Stalker build?
Someone want to come 3 stalker rush me?
ccJaeger.849 on NA
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Hi, I'm about mid diamond and am having serious trouble with this build against normal 3gate robo (gate robo gate gate) openings, i don't know how to follow up after i have my obs up and scouted a bunch of gateway units with colossus/colossus bay. I have tried blink stalkers and also big gateway immortal pushes, but i dont have a big enough force to straight up kill them and its to late to tech colo because their tech is already up by the time i have scouted them. Help appreciated.
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I'm gonna use this in all my next PvP games, seems awesome.
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On July 27 2011 09:15 UnitedKronos wrote: I'm gonna use this in all my next PvP games, seems awesome. Better spend at least a day practicing this or your next PvPs are all gonna be losses.
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3gates 1robo 4 stalkers 2 sentries 2 immortals 2 zealots 1 observer and 24 probes with blink ~50%. .
where do you get the upgrade so probes can blink? is that why my probes keep dying? am i forgetting that upgrade jk
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I wanted to revisit this thread to talk about something that hasnt been brought up in depth. Follow ups. I have had desent success with this build at a diamond level, and i see that another thread has gone into depth about this build. I understand that this build is a little outdated, and the late probe scout makes it vulnerable to rushes, however, i have found that if you do probe pairing early game, you can get away with a 10 scout after gate. Basically i have started this thread back up to see what follow ups you guys have come up with. Personally, i do a 2 coll, no range push, but i feel that my build is far from optimall.I can upload a replay later, but i do know that the push happens at around 10:00 with 2 coll, and obs, about 24 probes, 1-2 immrotals, depedign on game, and a gateway army consisting of mostly lots and stalkers. There can be a couple different types of follow ups, depending on what you see, and whether or not they actually attack you early with a 4 gate, and whether they take an expo early, ect.ect. So to all the readers out there, what do you follwo this build up with? and please, no one liners as responses, feel free to pm me your character code if you want so i can check out your build, and we can compare our ideas on it. This is XelnagaCUByo, signing out.
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