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On June 29 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote:
First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble. Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
I rewatched that game later and Tyler lost by 1 second. Literally 1 second. If his sentry had come out 1 second faster he would have held it off with a FF on bottom of ramp preventing warp in.
This build is time sensitive to the extreme. It is one of the most extreme razor thin builds in the game.
You need to execute it flawlessly to make it in time for the 4 gate.
On June 30 2011 01:39 Daimiru wrote:
I bet you could take like your 10 or 12 probe and check the outskirts of your base for proxies, when I was messing around with it scouting with the 12 probe didn't seem to tilt the build too badly.
I take my gas in a 3 Stalker Rush immediately after starting the first Stalker at 22, this takes it after starting the first stalker at like 21? So I doubt it mines meaningfully more gas, maybe? 50 due to the 12 gas, but I think that's generous. The Robo is much faster principally because it's cutting the gas of +2 Stalkers. If that's a safe cut then okay, but I'd be pretty uncomfortable totally surrendering map presence like that. If you go Robo before Sentry is the Sentry even done before the 3 Stalkers could arrive at your base?
You can not take the 10 or 12 probe to scout. You can barely afford to send the cyber core scout. You need every last probe mining as much as possible very badly. A single probe missing damages this build too much.
A probe scouting basically means 1 less gateway.
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he can be a lot more in your face with the 4 gate and then you will have a harder time.
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On June 29 2011 06:51 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 06:27 Lobber wrote:
First of all with a 10 gate it is stronger against most the cheeses mentioned, just scouting is still annoying, also I tested this about 10 games in a row with a friend with me 4 gating every game, (he's about 1800 masters I'm about 1700) and he never held. Not saying it can't be done but I've found vs a hardcore 4 gate it has trouble. Yup - see MC vs Tyler HSC III
OK i've finally gotten the VOD to load and found that game.
You can see it starts at ~1 hour 28 minutes [VOD]
Let's examine his build: The vod cuts on to the game while its already in progress so we have to work backwards to figure out the first couple timings.
He's chronoboosting and it runs out at 1:05 which means it started at 0:45. So he chronoboosted at 8 when his nexus hit 25 energy (45 * .5625), which leads us to expect a 10 pylon opening.
His pylon finishes at 1:21 which means it started at 0:56 and is consistent with a 10 pylon.
0:45 cb nexus @ 8 supply
0:56 pylon @ 10 supply
1:21 gateway @ 10 supply
1:37 gas @ 11 supply
1:46 cb nexus @ 12 supply
2:15 cb nexus @ 14 supply
2:27 core @ 15 supply -> scout
2:46 pylon @ 16 supply
3:17 stalker @ 20 supply
3:18 warpgate tech @ 20 supply
cb gateway @ 20 supply
3:53 2nd gas @ 22 supply
3:57 robo @ 22 supply
4:01 probe @ 23 supply
4:09 zealot @ 25 supply
4:20 pylon @ 25 supply
4:26 probe @ 26 supply
4:45 probe @ 27 supply
5:03 immortal @ 31 supply
5:04 cb on robo
5:05 sentry @ 33 supply
5:18 gateway @ 33 supply
5:28 cb on robo
5:30 pylon @ 33 supply
5:41 immortal finishes (he has enough money to make 2nd immortal but not enough supply and his robo is cbing nothing)
5:42 sentry finishes
5:56 2nd immortal starts
5:58 warpgate tech finishes
mc's first warp-in finishes @ 5:52
Now I will contend that the chrono before pylon 10p10gate is inferior to the 9pylon chrono on 12 opening however it's not a huge deal.
from the OP:
cb before pylon 10pylon 10gate
0:49 finish 9th probe
1:00 finish 10th probe
1:21 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
1:35 gas (finish 2:05)
2:26 core
5:26 warpgate tech finish
2:40 15 probe finish
5:42 immortal finish
Notice that the build outlined in this thread, even with that slightly different opening, gets 2 gateways with a finished warpgate tech @ 5:26 (and 5:22 with the 9pylon variation).
Tyler's build was very interesting that game and while it was obviously inspired by this opening it is NOT this opening. His was a much greedier 1gate robo without cutting probes at 20. He doesn't even start his second gateway until after there are 2 pylons built at the bottom of his ramp. He spends 3 chronoboosts on his nexus instead of 2, he spends 2 chronoboosts on his first immortal instead of 1. If he hadn't been supply blocked his 2nd immortal would've been out at ~6:37 which incidentally is exactly when his robo is destroyed and the game is already lost. It's nice to get a 2nd immortal so quickly but in this case ultimately useless.
A build that spends ZERO chronoboosts on warpgate tech has 1 gateway and builds 23 probes is NOT the same as a build that spends 3 chronoboosts on warpgate tech has 2 gateways and cuts probes at 20.
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hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
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On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote:
hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
Literally the entire focus of this opening is on defending against a 4 gate.
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On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote:
hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate
Well then ur doing it wrong.
Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2
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Ha! I have been doing this wrong all along!
I skimmed through that daily a back while and did this but I always scouted and had a regular gateway timming. I guess the people that 4 gated me are just bad because I used to win with this.
Thanks for the post
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On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote:
hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2
i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
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On July 01 2011 13:16 terranuapart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote:
hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2 i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
Would love to see the replays.
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On July 01 2011 13:16 terranuapart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 12:59 blooblooblahblah wrote:On July 01 2011 12:50 terranuapart wrote:
hard 4 gate (2 chrono probes rest on warp tech) absolutely destroys this build >< dunno why u put this build as a strength to 4 gate Well then ur doing it wrong. Tht said, this build is extremely precise and one little mess up and that can be gg against a well executed 4gate. But it kinda excites me tht a build can either work amazing or fail miserably by the smallest of margins. Gives me hope tht some really tight refined builds like this will continue to develop during sc2 i dont do this build because its horrible rofl i 4 gate vs it... ive destroyed tyler countless times with 4 gate vs it and other top NA protosses. anyone that thinks this build counters 4 gate i ll gladly demonstrate it doesnt
Tyler does a different build though. His is more greedy which kinda makes it stronger against a lot of other builds but weakens him slightly to 4 gate. From a numerical perspective it defeats 4 gate completely. Only player skill holds this build back.
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Î have a question to your timings. I tried it about 20 times now but it seems impossible to get a Gateway at 1:16...
0:51 finish 9th probe
1:11 finish 10th probe
1:16 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
1:37 gas (finsh 2:07)
2:22 core
2:31 15 probe finish
5:22 warpgate tech finish
5:42 immortal finish
What is my mistake in this matter or are those times realistically achievable?
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On July 03 2011 22:39 blowfish wrote:
Î have a question to your timings. I tried it about 20 times now but it seems impossible to get a Gateway at 1:16...
0:51 finish 9th probe
1:11 finish 10th probe
1:16 gateway
1:24 start 11th probe
1:37 gas (finsh 2:07)
2:22 core
2:31 15 probe finish
5:22 warpgate tech finish
5:42 immortal finish
What is my mistake in this matter or are those times realistically achievable?
The early game timings depend heavily on the map's mineral layout. I used xel'naga caverns for all my testing.
Also if you want fastest possible building placement I recommend putting your probe in position pressing b, then spamming left click and g on the ground next to your probe.
Those times are based on a test run which starts ~8:50 in this replay.
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hmm the thought is good but the replays arent reliable... the 4g into blinkstalkers wasnt even a real 4g push since he backed off before even setting a single pylon outside ur base.... and on the other 4g replay the guy gg after u killed his pylonprobe.... i mean, none of ur replays treats a simple solid 4g which imo is the most important tactic to handle since its the standard build in pvp.
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I never actually saw this build, but how well does it do against my standard opening, the Younghwa 3 Stalker build?
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On July 04 2011 07:37 IIIOmegaIII wrote:
hmm the thought is good but the replays arent reliable... the 4g into blinkstalkers wasnt even a real 4g push since he backed off before even setting a single pylon outside ur base.... and on the other 4g replay the guy gg after u killed his pylonprobe.... i mean, none of ur replays treats a simple solid 4g which imo is the most important tactic to handle since its the standard build in pvp.
Someone want to come 4gate me?
On July 04 2011 07:40 iTzAnglory wrote:
I never actually saw this build, but how well does it do against my standard opening, the Younghwa 3 Stalker build?
Someone want to come 3 stalker rush me?
ccJaeger.849 on NA
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Hi, I'm about mid diamond and am having serious trouble with this build against normal 3gate robo (gate robo gate gate) openings, i don't know how to follow up after i have my obs up and scouted a bunch of gateway units with colossus/colossus bay. I have tried blink stalkers and also big gateway immortal pushes, but i dont have a big enough force to straight up kill them and its to late to tech colo because their tech is already up by the time i have scouted them. Help appreciated.
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I'm gonna use this in all my next PvP games, seems awesome.
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On July 27 2011 09:15 UnitedKronos wrote:
I'm gonna use this in all my next PvP games, seems awesome.
Better spend at least a day practicing this or your next PvPs are all gonna be losses. 
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3gates 1robo 4 stalkers 2 sentries 2 immortals 2 zealots 1 observer and 24 probes with blink ~50%.
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where do you get the upgrade so probes can blink? is that why my probes keep dying? am i forgetting that upgrade  jk
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I wanted to revisit this thread to talk about something that hasnt been brought up in depth. Follow ups. I have had desent success with this build at a diamond level, and i see that another thread has gone into depth about this build. I understand that this build is a little outdated, and the late probe scout makes it vulnerable to rushes, however, i have found that if you do probe pairing early game, you can get away with a 10 scout after gate. Basically i have started this thread back up to see what follow ups you guys have come up with. Personally, i do a 2 coll, no range push, but i feel that my build is far from optimall.I can upload a replay later, but i do know that the push happens at around 10:00 with 2 coll, and obs, about 24 probes, 1-2 immrotals, depedign on game, and a gateway army consisting of mostly lots and stalkers. There can be a couple different types of follow ups, depending on what you see, and whether or not they actually attack you early with a 4 gate, and whether they take an expo early, ect.ect. So to all the readers out there, what do you follwo this build up with? and please, no one liners as responses, feel free to pm me your character code if you want so i can check out your build, and we can compare our ideas on it.
This is XelnagaCUByo, signing out.
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EPT
