EPT(btw im only talking about early game here)
TVT GSL Why Combat Shield before stim? - Page 4
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Chris1097
United States35 Posts
(btw im only talking about early game here) | ||
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MrAverage
19 Posts
If you outnumber your opponent I think you will lose less marines while winning the fight if you have stim rather than shields. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On August 31 2011 02:47 n0ise wrote: +1 Hit from BF hellions and from banshees to kill a marine. both quite common also, it's faster They said exactly this on the last sotg | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Well it makes sense. Stim is often used later on for chasing and running and dropping with huge DPS and speed, but it's just not useful pre-medivacs and when you are likely to lose a head-on fight. Also, there's a pretty significant defender's advantage in TvT with bunkers, ramps, cliffs and tanks, so better to have the HP to make it to the engagement in the first place, I guess. | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
It still remains true that marines are very weak to tanks with mode, but at the higher levels most skip it for some reason for infantry upgrades, blue flame or more economy. Or they just simply forget to get siege mode. Mass marine punishes that and blue flame and banshee openings, because blue flame off of one factory is weak to mass marine rushes even with a wall-off you will still have problems. So if the opposing player is teching to something from the factory or starport while expanding, very common tvt thing. They are weak to a mass marine rush, I'd say a two rax with combat shields and marauders or reapers, depending on preference would do the job. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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Premier
United States503 Posts
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galzohar
Israel100 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:49 Xanczor wrote: combat shields is better for holding off attacks, if you are playing a defensive style. Also, if you don't have medivacs, when you stim and your opponent can retreat, then you will lose 10 health each marine. But if you have stim and can beat his shield marines he can't run because you move faster. If neither of you have stim or both of you have stim then again the loser can retreat. So in marine vs marine, whether you go stim or shields you can run away from his marines in a losing battle, but without stim he can also run away if you're winning. So stim does have an advantage here. But of course shields have their own advantages (unrelated to marine vs marine), and of course running isn't always an option in which case shields would be a bit better. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On September 17 2011 17:01 galzohar wrote: But if you have stim and can beat his shield marines he can't run because you move faster. If neither of you have stim or both of you have stim then again the loser can retreat. So in marine vs marine, whether you go stim or shields you can run away from his marines in a losing battle, but without stim he can also run away if you're winning. So stim does have an advantage here. But of course shields have their own advantages (unrelated to marine vs marine), and of course running isn't always an option in which case shields would be a bit better. That's certainly true, but another thing to consider is that you can often bait your opponent into wasting a stim on a retarded magnet before medivacs are out. I've lost track of the number of times I saw a clump of 4-5 marines, stimmed a few units in to kill them, and got blasted by a single siege tank or a larger force hidden by a cliff. I think Cshields is definitely better, because the move speed isn't as important as health in the early game. I mean really, all early Terran units are pretty slow except the hellion (which is suicide to stim into because without Cshields because you get 2-shot). And Reapers in TvT...lol unless you're Nada. I could understand getting Stim before Cshields if you're going early Marauders, but if you're doing that you really want Cshells first instead. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Stim/No Shield Marine: 35/45 HP, 6 damage, 0.57387 delay Shield/No Stim Marine: 55/55 HP, 6 damage, 0.8608 delay Siege Mode Tank: 35 damage Mobile Mode Tank: 20 damage Banshee: 24 damage Red Flame hellion: 14 damage Blue Flame hellion: 24 damage Reaper: 8 damage Marauder: 10 damage Now we compare No Shield/Stim to Shield/No Stim: Marine: 6 shot -> 9 shot. 33% increase in survivability Siege Mode Tank: 1 shot -> 2 shot. 50% increase Mobile Mode Tank: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Banshee: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Red Flame Hellion: 3 shot -> 4 shot. 25% increase Blue Flame Hellion: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Reaper: 5 shot -> 7 shot -> 29% increase Marauder: 4 shot -> 6 shot -> 33% increase So therefore: Stim/No Shields: 33% increase in dps and move speed, at 23% cost to health. But keep in mind, the faster you kill stuff, the less total damage you receive in the battle. No Stim/Shields: Avg 33% increase in survivability, at no cost to health. I think its fairly obvious that you don't want to stim in the early game unless you really need the move speed bonus to close quickly. Like vs Siege Tanks, or against low health Banshees that are running away. Of course, after you get Stim+Shields and/or medivacs, stim away because then the health cost drops from 23% to 18%. Plus with combat shield, stimming vs not stimming makes no difference in survivability in some unit matchups. For example siege mode tanks go from 2 shots - > 2 shots, Red Flame Hellions go from 4 shots -> 4 shots, etc. | ||
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