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On August 31 2011 05:49 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote:
I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with.
Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins.
Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought.
EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. With marauders, yes, stim first becasue mauders are so much better with stim. However, with pure marines, shields first.
I'm actually not sure if marauders gain significant benefits from stim. It takes off a whopping 20 health from a marauder. Perhaps if they don't stim they end up doing more damage simply because they last longer? would be quite situational though.
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well shield has his advantage if you do 2 rax agression vs toss
i mean if the fight goes long enough during the push you do once the 2nd marauder is out and your mass marines with shells
you could get shields during the fight
and its nice when then 4-8 marines have all of sudden +10 hp
later you go anyway for expand and then you cans still go for stim when the first medis are out
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I don't know if it's been said, but -
1. It is possible to do a combat shield marine timing attack that can hit hard vs a FE-> banshee build, essentially no bunker would mean gg.
2. Combat shield marines take 3 hits instead of 2 vs a banshee, making them significantly more durable while waiting for a viking to pop lets say.
3. Extra hp vs Blue flame - but this is likely a reason that big barracks after FE builds are less common in TvT recently.
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On August 31 2011 10:20 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:49 kofman wrote:On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote:
I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with.
Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins.
Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought.
EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. With marauders, yes, stim first becasue mauders are so much better with stim. However, with pure marines, shields first. I'm actually not sure if marauders gain significant benefits from stim. It takes off a whopping 20 health from a marauder. Perhaps if they don't stim they end up doing more damage simply because they last longer? would be quite situational though.
Well against toss, if you have stim for your maruders, you can kite zealots a lot easier even if you have concusive shells because without stim, every time you turn around to shoot the stalkers and other protoss units fire on your maraders too. However, if you have stim, then you can kite the zealots while being too fast for stalkers to fire on your maraders. Plus, you can just run from the zealots while targeting the stalkers if you have stim, which you can't if you don't because without stim, zealots run just as fast as maraders. So, in TvP with maraders as well as marines, get stimpack first.
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if you were to fully stim your army and medivacs weren't close then you might as well have just had +HP and wouldnt have had to sacrafice life to make the units more efficient (early game-mid game)
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Combat shields win.
35hp/7 dps = 5 seconds to kill stimmed marine.
In those same 5 seconds, the stimmed marine does 10.5 x 5 = 52.5 damage, not enough to kill a 55hp combat shield marine.
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Guys,
It happened again on IMMvp VS EG_Huk Code S, Ro8 Match 2 A FEW HOURS ago.
IMMvp did a TVP timing push with medivac + tank + marine with combat shield (BUT NOT STIM)
thanks for all the replies and i summarize the main points as below to make it easier for new readers. Please correct me if it's wrong.
Reason of going combat shield before stim for TVT
- Faster than stim, potentially take advantage of the short timing that your opponent goes for gas
- 1 combat shield marines without stim beat marines with stim but no combat shield.
- +1 Hit from BF hellions, ghost snipe and from banshees to kill a marine; stimmed marine gets 1 shot by siege tank
It highly depends on situations
e.g.
TVT, FE with bio, likely to get shield first to defend( OptimusPrime.WE VS MVP_Keen Code S Round of 8 Aug GSL )
TVP, 111, get shield first as meat for tanks even you have medviac( IMMvp VS EG_Huk Code S, Ro8 Match Aug GSL )
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it's a defensive measure, stimmed marine vs shielded marine, the shielded marine wins. also faster research
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a stimmed marine gets 1 shotted by siege tanks so its made redundant till medivacs and shield arrive. Also, banshees and hellions need 1 more shot to kill a shielded rine. Faster upgrade too.
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Lol no need for the barrage is posts saying om wrong. Not a troll, just stupid 
Thats what i get for 5am posts
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Stim doesn't immediately help you. You can't put any pressure on with them at the start, you can only defend with them.
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While I see combat shields first sometimes, I still mostly see stim first. My analysis:
Shields first:
- For straight out combat strength, marines with shields are (55/35)/1.5 = 4.76% stronger than stimmed marines.
- For fights where you'd win anyway stim can cost too much health, while shields can reduce the number of marines lost. Of course assuming even with stim you would not be able to catch the possibly fleeing enemy units (ex: hellions).
- Researches faster
Stim first:
- Stimmed marines have better mobility, thus in many situations spend less time moving and more time shooting, resulting in even more damage.
- Many units in the game cannot run away from or chase stimmed marines. While using stim to run is silly, when you have less marines and enemy marines used stim, or in any other situation where not stimming to run would result in losing all marines, it's better than shields. As long as the extra 4% wouldn't cut it to turn the losing battle into a winning one, or as long as the 4% less wouldn't turn a winning battle (where you would like to chase the fleeing enemy) into a losing one.
- Better kiting (though irrelevant for TvT).
As for marauders, losing 20/125 HP is much less significant than a 50% damage boost, obviously as long as you are not over-stimming (ex not stimming 5 marauders to kill 1 roach).
I hope this is actually helpful rather than terribly wrong
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I usually get combat shields before stim in every matchup, except im using bio in tvp. In tvz, i can push with combat shield now instead of stim, as my marines stay alive for longer. I really, really recommend it! ^_^
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I don't think its a matter of stim < combat or vice versa.
The reason combat is first is to help defend against banshee pressure. 3 shots instead of 2.
Most times if you are opening combat first you are going bio, and most bio pushes can't happen early so getting stim 2nd makes a lot of sense.
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It provides more value, especially versus blue flame and early siege tanks. It researches faster as well.
Think about it like this, vs a huge attack or rush you couuld have some fast attacking 35 hp marines, after stimming. OR you could have some heavy 55 hp marines, 20 hp difference per active marine is huge. It just makes sense.
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On August 31 2011 03:05 Cycle wrote:
I've also seen MMA get Combat Shield before Stim a few times in TvZ, and he did a push with it, so I don't know if it's always just defensive. Does anyone know about timings involving that?
vZ Combat shield makes marines much stronger marines faster than stim, allowing for quicker timing strikes. While stim might be very good for the initial fight, combat shield allows for more staying power.
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You get combat shields because it boosts the HP of your marines. In the early game you won't have medivacs up yet and you want your marines to stay alive for as long as possible. This upgrade is essential. It would be like a Zerg not getting pathogen glands for his Infestors.
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It used to be most players would get stim first back when the research time was the same but they added 30 seconds onto it's research time making it on par if not worse then combat shields. It also just happens that a lot of the timing attacks are based on the old stim timings and would now come really late if waiting for stim. Much like blue flame hellions are about to be nerfed out of existence so was stim. I personally get neither and just use the money on upgrading my tech or +1 upgrades. Also stim was never really about the damage increase but was more about being able to run in really fast to snipe siege tanks. However by the time you get stim they will have 1 more siege tank then they used to with the old timings so it's not really worth it.
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i just tested the stim vs combat shield in 1v1 and 5v5 and 10v10
1v1 goes to combat
5v5 goes to combat with 2 left
10v10 goes to combat with 4 left
Stim<Combat Shield
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in general for all mu's, stim should really only be used when medivacs are on the field. Unless you're doing some 3 rax or timing aggresion. Usually you will not have medivacs that early so combat shield is the better option.
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EPT
