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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
I have been watching some TVT GSL matches and i do see players getting combat shield before stim. e.g. OptimusPrime.WE VS MVP_Keen Code S Round of 8 Aug GSL It's not the first time that i see this. Is there any reason behind it? At first glance, my thought would be due to the no. of hits they take from banshee or blue flame hellion before dying. Any thoughts? Does it also depend on whether you want to defend after FE or attack for all in? Thanks! | ||
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nrv
United States113 Posts
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minimalistic
Hungary157 Posts
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
It's not always better to choose one over the other depends what you want to do. But those are some facts that can affect the choice, | ||
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thobel
United States37 Posts
Combat shield, on the other hand, you'll always use because its passive. I've found that its better when you plan on defending for a bit, especially for fast expand openings and things. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
also, it's faster | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
On August 31 2011 02:45 Nibbler89 wrote: If you stim without combat shield you get 1 shot by siege tank. Also combat shield marines without stim beat marines with stim but no combat shield. It's not always better to choose one over the other depends what you want to do. But those are some facts that can affect the choice, I doubt this, id bet stim>shield in a fight. Source? | ||
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
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nrv
United States113 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Cycle
United States300 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:00 Squigly wrote: I doubt this, id bet stim>shield in a fight. Source? Liquipedia says 10.5 dps for stim, 7 for nonstim. Simple math tells you that combat shields wins in this case. Plus shields is faster to research. | ||
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:05 Cycle wrote: You can do a blueflame + shields timing or maybbbe super fast tank + shield marines push, but normally you want stim first. I've also seen MMA get Combat Shield before Stim a few times in TvZ, and he did a push with it, so I don't know if it's always just defensive. Does anyone know about timings involving that? | ||
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:08 rauk wrote: Liquipedia says 10.5 dps for stim, 7 for nonstim. Simple math tells you that combat shields wins in this case. Plus shields is faster to research. Simple math? I would have thought it'd be rather complex given that the DPS of the army slowly drops as the more units die... For those who haven't worked it out, 10.5 dps to a 55 health unit = 19% max health per second, 7 dps to 35 health unit = 20% max health per second. The problem arises when the stim marines get off the first shot because they're stimmed. Not to mention that the stim marines always have the choice of when to engage or back out, while the normal marines can't afford that luxury. They're almost guaranteed to get a better concave too... That said, the benefits of the extra hit from banshees/BFH definately make it better TvT choice. The straight up combat aspects though of marine v marine isn't so clearcut. | ||
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Saishuuheiki
United States188 Posts
After a stim, a marine has 35 hit points. At 6 damage per shot it takes 6 shots to kill, or 6 seconds for an unstimmed marine. With a combat shield, at 55 hit points a marine takes 9 shots to kill. Which, conveniently, takes 6 seconds. The simple math indicates that it's a tie if 1 marine with a combat shield fights 1 stimmed marine without shield. Thus, it is safe to say in a pure marine v marine fight, combat shield is probably better. This is due to the fact that stim does wear out eventually, and even with stim, it merely brings the fight to equal ground. Note that if you're playing aggressive and trying to break your opponents defence with marines, stim may be better. Outside factors such as moving up a ramp or fighting against a bunker may favor stimpack over combat shield. Plus, if you start stimpack first and start combat shield before stim is done, you will have both available before you would otherwise. This can lead to certain timings favoring stim first. | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:17 LionsFist wrote: Stim doesn't fire the first attack any faster than non-stim. You can't go faster than instant.The problem arises when the stim marines get off the first shot because they're stimmed. Not to mention that the stim marines always have the choice of when to engage or back out, while the normal marines can't afford that luxury. They're almost guaranteed to get a better concave too... Also, your argument about stimmed marines being able to choose when to engage or disengage is a bit flawed imho. They can indeed choose when to engage, but to use stim to run away at the stage in the game where you only have 1 upgrade instead of 2? Stimming in such a situation is likely to hurt more than help since you do not have medivacs. Not to mention all the other things mentioned in the thread so far, banshees/hellions requiring an extra hit, tanks oneshotting stimmed no-shield marines, etc. | ||
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Penatronic
150 Posts
Shield + 1 tank makes this pretty obvious... Atleast for that scenario | ||
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ProxyPL
Poland230 Posts
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:00 Squigly wrote: I doubt this, id bet stim>shield in a fight. Source? Stim loses to shield | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
it negates stim. so really all u need to do is retreat ur own marines until their stim runs out and walah ur way ahead!! stim is only good with medivacs. | ||
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reikai
United States359 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:14 PhiliBiRD wrote: if they go stim and u go shield, when u engage they will have only 35 hp vs ur 55 hp. it negates stim. so really all u need to do is retreat ur own marines until their stim runs out and walah ur way ahead!! stim is only good with medivacs. I sort of agree with the last bit, that stim is only good with medivacs. I think it can be better stated by saying that the later the game goes, stim is better, but combat shield has it's place earlier on for not dying to cheese and early pressure builds :D I'm surprised nobody has mentioned MarineKing's combat shield rush! (vs MMA in the GSL where MMA lost 0-4 in the finals :/) | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:00 Squigly wrote: I doubt this, id bet stim>shield in a fight. Source? No, a stimmed marine without shields loses to a shields marine without stim. Its common knowledge, try it on a custom editer if you like. Think about it, a 35 HP marine beating a 55 HP marine? On the topic of which one to get first, get combat shields first if you don't have medivacs, are staying defensive, and the other player isn't getting banshees because you absoulely need stim to kill banshees. Get stim first if you are planning to be agrressive, have medivacs, or the other player has banshees. Getting stim without medivacs is not good, or else your marines literally kill themselves because there is no way to heal up the 10 damage the marines are doing to themselves every time they stim. In TvZ, it is very situational about which one to get first. Against zerg, you really need to mobility that stim offers to defend against mutalisks, but on the other hand, if you stim without shields, then banelings and infestors one-shot your marines. So, I would still say shields first. Against protoss, shields first because 35 HP stimmed marines aren't as strong as 55 HP un-stimmed marines. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins. Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought. EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. | ||
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alia
United States294 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote: I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with. Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins. Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought. EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. Uh... Stim costs 10 hp. | ||
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Tobon
United States372 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote: I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with. Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins. Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought. A marine with no shield has 45, but as soon as you hit the stim button they lose 10 health, so 35 HP left when they engage. After 5 seconds, the stimmed marine is dead, and the combat shield marine has just a few HP left. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote: I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with. Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins. Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought. EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. With marauders, yes, stim first becasue mauders are so much better with stim. However, with pure marines, shields first. | ||
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Drygioni
Japan379 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:14 PhiliBiRD wrote: if they go stim and u go shield, when u engage they will have only 35 hp vs ur 55 hp. it negates stim. so really all u need to do is retreat ur own marines until their stim runs out and walah ur way ahead!! stim is only good with medivacs. Wouldn't it be better just to engage with the shield marines vs stimmed? If you retreat the stimmed ones get lots of free shots off, kinda negating the advantage of the 20 extra HP I'd think. So in a pure marine vs pure marine battle, assuming shield wins out, I think you should just engage. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
vs Sieged Tanks: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot vs Banshees: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot vs Ghost Snipe: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot I always get combat shield first in TvT unless I'm trying to bust a bunker or something. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
A stimmed unshielded marine has 35 hp, marines do 6 damage per shot so it can survive 6 hits. A shielded marine has 55 hp, again marines do 6 damage per shot so it can survive 10 hits. A marine's attack cooldown is 0.8608 seconds(  Marine) which stim reduces to 0,57387.Thus, a shielded marine needs 6 hits multiplied by 0.8608 seconds or 5,1648 seconds to kill a stimmed unshielded marine. On the other hand, a stimmed marine needs 10 hits multiplied by 0,57387 seconds or 5,7387 seconds to kill a shielded marine. Note: The 9th stimmed attack and the 6th unstimmed attack happen simultaneously(exactly at 5.1648 seconds) and as such it will be random which marine fires first. In either case however the stimmed marine will die, the only difference is if the shielded marine survives with 7 hp, or with 1 hp. | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
On August 31 2011 06:06 RoboBob wrote: Stim vs Combat Shields on Marines in TvT: vs Sieged Tanks: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot vs Banshees: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot vs Ghost Snipe: Goes from 1 shot to 2 shot I always get combat shield first in TvT unless I'm trying to bust a bunker or something. Blue flame hellions also take 1 more shot to kill marines. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:26 Squigly wrote: I think i dont know something obvious lol. A marines has 45 HP without shield, 55 with. Ignoring anything complex. After 6 seconds, the unstimmed has done 42 damage, the stimmed has done over 60. The stimmed wins. Ive seen the number 35 HP thrown around here. I havent checked in game, but liquipedia says 45 as i thought. EDIT: You can stim maruders too, so against P id say stim first every single time. Not sure if serious or.. | ||
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BioTech
Australia264 Posts
Unless u have medivacs overhead then CS > stim. And it researches quicker! | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Each stim takes away a lot of HP from your units | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:00 Squigly wrote: I doubt this, id bet stim>shield in a fight. Source? You're wrong. It's the exact same reason you want combat shield marines vs Zerglings instead of Stim. The marines are far better with combat shields. Of course, if they have banelings you'd much rather have stim, since you can't run from them effectively otherwise! | ||
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HypertonicHydroponic
437 Posts
In case there is still any question about the merits of getting Shield before Stim, recall to mind the timeless Terran nursery rhyme: Shield is Faster. Shield is Cheaper. Shield lets you Afford a Reaper. -- Brother Grim + Show Spoiler + I'm sure stim first has its benefits, but I just *had* to throw that out there...  | ||
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Soulish
Canada1403 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:49 kofman wrote: With marauders, yes, stim first becasue mauders are so much better with stim. However, with pure marines, shields first. I'm actually not sure if marauders gain significant benefits from stim. It takes off a whopping 20 health from a marauder. Perhaps if they don't stim they end up doing more damage simply because they last longer? would be quite situational though. | ||
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
i mean if the fight goes long enough during the push you do once the 2nd marauder is out and your mass marines with shells you could get shields during the fight and its nice when then 4-8 marines have all of sudden +10 hp later you go anyway for expand and then you cans still go for stim when the first medis are out | ||
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1nMack1
Canada88 Posts
1. It is possible to do a combat shield marine timing attack that can hit hard vs a FE-> banshee build, essentially no bunker would mean gg. 2. Combat shield marines take 3 hits instead of 2 vs a banshee, making them significantly more durable while waiting for a viking to pop lets say. 3. Extra hp vs Blue flame - but this is likely a reason that big barracks after FE builds are less common in TvT recently. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On August 31 2011 10:20 Soulish wrote: I'm actually not sure if marauders gain significant benefits from stim. It takes off a whopping 20 health from a marauder. Perhaps if they don't stim they end up doing more damage simply because they last longer? would be quite situational though. Well against toss, if you have stim for your maruders, you can kite zealots a lot easier even if you have concusive shells because without stim, every time you turn around to shoot the stalkers and other protoss units fire on your maraders too. However, if you have stim, then you can kite the zealots while being too fast for stalkers to fire on your maraders. Plus, you can just run from the zealots while targeting the stalkers if you have stim, which you can't if you don't because without stim, zealots run just as fast as maraders. So, in TvP with maraders as well as marines, get stimpack first. | ||
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cactusjack914
United States183 Posts
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
35hp/7 dps = 5 seconds to kill stimmed marine. In those same 5 seconds, the stimmed marine does 10.5 x 5 = 52.5 damage, not enough to kill a 55hp combat shield marine. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
It happened again on IMMvp VS EG_Huk Code S, Ro8 Match 2 A FEW HOURS ago. IMMvp did a TVP timing push with medivac + tank + marine with combat shield (BUT NOT STIM) thanks for all the replies and i summarize the main points as below to make it easier for new readers. Please correct me if it's wrong. Reason of going combat shield before stim for TVT - Faster than stim, potentially take advantage of the short timing that your opponent goes for gas - 1 combat shield marines without stim beat marines with stim but no combat shield. - +1 Hit from BF hellions, ghost snipe and from banshees to kill a marine; stimmed marine gets 1 shot by siege tank It highly depends on situations e.g. TVT, FE with bio, likely to get shield first to defend( OptimusPrime.WE VS MVP_Keen Code S Round of 8 Aug GSL ) TVP, 111, get shield first as meat for tanks even you have medviac( IMMvp VS EG_Huk Code S, Ro8 Match Aug GSL ) | ||
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TangFish
United States17 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
 Thats what i get for 5am posts | ||
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djdoodoo
United Kingdom192 Posts
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galzohar
Israel100 Posts
Shields first: - For straight out combat strength, marines with shields are (55/35)/1.5 = 4.76% stronger than stimmed marines. - For fights where you'd win anyway stim can cost too much health, while shields can reduce the number of marines lost. Of course assuming even with stim you would not be able to catch the possibly fleeing enemy units (ex: hellions). - Researches faster Stim first: - Stimmed marines have better mobility, thus in many situations spend less time moving and more time shooting, resulting in even more damage. - Many units in the game cannot run away from or chase stimmed marines. While using stim to run is silly, when you have less marines and enemy marines used stim, or in any other situation where not stimming to run would result in losing all marines, it's better than shields. As long as the extra 4% wouldn't cut it to turn the losing battle into a winning one, or as long as the 4% less wouldn't turn a winning battle (where you would like to chase the fleeing enemy) into a losing one. - Better kiting (though irrelevant for TvT). As for marauders, losing 20/125 HP is much less significant than a 50% damage boost, obviously as long as you are not over-stimming (ex not stimming 5 marauders to kill 1 roach). I hope this is actually helpful rather than terribly wrong | ||
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MonDeW
Denmark369 Posts
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souL.soul
United States31 Posts
The reason combat is first is to help defend against banshee pressure. 3 shots instead of 2. Most times if you are opening combat first you are going bio, and most bio pushes can't happen early so getting stim 2nd makes a lot of sense. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
Think about it like this, vs a huge attack or rush you couuld have some fast attacking 35 hp marines, after stimming. OR you could have some heavy 55 hp marines, 20 hp difference per active marine is huge. It just makes sense. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On August 31 2011 03:05 Cycle wrote: I've also seen MMA get Combat Shield before Stim a few times in TvZ, and he did a push with it, so I don't know if it's always just defensive. Does anyone know about timings involving that? vZ Combat shield makes marines much stronger marines faster than stim, allowing for quicker timing strikes. While stim might be very good for the initial fight, combat shield allows for more staying power. | ||
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Ragnarok87
United States55 Posts
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xJaCEx
155 Posts
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doner0
United States233 Posts
1v1 goes to combat 5v5 goes to combat with 2 left 10v10 goes to combat with 4 left Stim<Combat Shield | ||
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Jubio
United States50 Posts
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Chris1097
United States35 Posts
(btw im only talking about early game here) | ||
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MrAverage
19 Posts
If you outnumber your opponent I think you will lose less marines while winning the fight if you have stim rather than shields. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On August 31 2011 02:47 n0ise wrote: +1 Hit from BF hellions and from banshees to kill a marine. both quite common also, it's faster They said exactly this on the last sotg | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
Well it makes sense. Stim is often used later on for chasing and running and dropping with huge DPS and speed, but it's just not useful pre-medivacs and when you are likely to lose a head-on fight. Also, there's a pretty significant defender's advantage in TvT with bunkers, ramps, cliffs and tanks, so better to have the HP to make it to the engagement in the first place, I guess. | ||
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Xanczor
United States254 Posts
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xciLe
Norway213 Posts
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
It still remains true that marines are very weak to tanks with mode, but at the higher levels most skip it for some reason for infantry upgrades, blue flame or more economy. Or they just simply forget to get siege mode. Mass marine punishes that and blue flame and banshee openings, because blue flame off of one factory is weak to mass marine rushes even with a wall-off you will still have problems. So if the opposing player is teching to something from the factory or starport while expanding, very common tvt thing. They are weak to a mass marine rush, I'd say a two rax with combat shields and marauders or reapers, depending on preference would do the job. | ||
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CatNzHat
United States1599 Posts
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Premier
United States503 Posts
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galzohar
Israel100 Posts
On September 08 2011 17:49 Xanczor wrote: combat shields is better for holding off attacks, if you are playing a defensive style. Also, if you don't have medivacs, when you stim and your opponent can retreat, then you will lose 10 health each marine. But if you have stim and can beat his shield marines he can't run because you move faster. If neither of you have stim or both of you have stim then again the loser can retreat. So in marine vs marine, whether you go stim or shields you can run away from his marines in a losing battle, but without stim he can also run away if you're winning. So stim does have an advantage here. But of course shields have their own advantages (unrelated to marine vs marine), and of course running isn't always an option in which case shields would be a bit better. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On September 17 2011 17:01 galzohar wrote: But if you have stim and can beat his shield marines he can't run because you move faster. If neither of you have stim or both of you have stim then again the loser can retreat. So in marine vs marine, whether you go stim or shields you can run away from his marines in a losing battle, but without stim he can also run away if you're winning. So stim does have an advantage here. But of course shields have their own advantages (unrelated to marine vs marine), and of course running isn't always an option in which case shields would be a bit better. That's certainly true, but another thing to consider is that you can often bait your opponent into wasting a stim on a retarded magnet before medivacs are out. I've lost track of the number of times I saw a clump of 4-5 marines, stimmed a few units in to kill them, and got blasted by a single siege tank or a larger force hidden by a cliff. I think Cshields is definitely better, because the move speed isn't as important as health in the early game. I mean really, all early Terran units are pretty slow except the hellion (which is suicide to stim into because without Cshields because you get 2-shot). And Reapers in TvT...lol unless you're Nada. I could understand getting Stim before Cshields if you're going early Marauders, but if you're doing that you really want Cshells first instead. | ||
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
Stim/No Shield Marine: 35/45 HP, 6 damage, 0.57387 delay Shield/No Stim Marine: 55/55 HP, 6 damage, 0.8608 delay Siege Mode Tank: 35 damage Mobile Mode Tank: 20 damage Banshee: 24 damage Red Flame hellion: 14 damage Blue Flame hellion: 24 damage Reaper: 8 damage Marauder: 10 damage Now we compare No Shield/Stim to Shield/No Stim: Marine: 6 shot -> 9 shot. 33% increase in survivability Siege Mode Tank: 1 shot -> 2 shot. 50% increase Mobile Mode Tank: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Banshee: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Red Flame Hellion: 3 shot -> 4 shot. 25% increase Blue Flame Hellion: 2 shot -> 3 shot. 33% increase Reaper: 5 shot -> 7 shot -> 29% increase Marauder: 4 shot -> 6 shot -> 33% increase So therefore: Stim/No Shields: 33% increase in dps and move speed, at 23% cost to health. But keep in mind, the faster you kill stuff, the less total damage you receive in the battle. No Stim/Shields: Avg 33% increase in survivability, at no cost to health. I think its fairly obvious that you don't want to stim in the early game unless you really need the move speed bonus to close quickly. Like vs Siege Tanks, or against low health Banshees that are running away. Of course, after you get Stim+Shields and/or medivacs, stim away because then the health cost drops from 23% to 18%. Plus with combat shield, stimming vs not stimming makes no difference in survivability in some unit matchups. For example siege mode tanks go from 2 shots - > 2 shots, Red Flame Hellions go from 4 shots -> 4 shots, etc. | ||
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