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On January 21 2013 07:34 kuroshiroi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 17:30 LeafMeAlone wrote:http://drop.sc/296899Can someone look at this replay for me and tell me what I can improve on - late game TvP My TvP BO isn't Bomber's but it puts on early pressure and forces him to make sentries which delays his tech. Looking at the replay I had greater resources collected throughout and I took bases faster than he did. I probably should have expanded on the right side since he was on the left side for most of the match but I don't think it would've made much of a difference. I couldn't drop since he made canons at all his expos so I made defense PF's and teched to ghosts, etc. If he wasn't so defensive I think I could've won but eh. There were some breaks in getting upgrades, I should probably work on hotkeying my ebays. Does it just come down to 200/200 army control? I know my emps suck for the most part and my overall control could use some improvement but the map is basically no open space. All the expos are kinda bad to attack into since they have chokes going to them. I have bio+vikings on 1 and ghosts on 2. I seem to have trouble timing when the emps will hit since the ghosts usually have to walk before casting but if I put them in the front they die to the collo range before they can get off emps on the ht. =( According to the graph I had a good lead in econ for a majority of the game but my army just wasn't there, I think I got a good number of ghosts since I didn't want to over-make them and lose to the collo/chargelots. Should I just veto the map? Thanks~ Try countering your opponents units? He had 5 colossi and 6 HT and you had like 5 vikings and 0 ghosts. You had a starport and a ghost academy in place on time, you just didn't make the appropriate units. Also, the ideal composition for late game (in most cases, I guess) is marauder, ghost, viking, medivac. No marines. Ghosts and emps destroy zealots and archons. Marauders and vikings take care of the rest.
It's actually the opposite. You want no marauders, and then marine ghost medivac viking because marauders just aren't good enough against chargelots for you to want to get them.
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I have heard a lot of different opinions on the marine vs marauder thing.
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Well everyone who said marauder is wrong. Ver and TheDwf have both said go with essentially no marauders and if you watch top level play you wil see the same.
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On January 21 2013 08:16 KAB00000000M wrote:
I have heard a lot of different opinions on the marine vs marauder thing.
Weird. I have (as far as I recall) never once heard to cut marines in favour of marauders lategame vP, but frequently hear the opposite (i.e. marine/ghost/viking only).
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On January 19 2013 15:15 Maxilicious wrote:
If opponent proxy marauder, then you should prepare for cloaked banshee and mech.
Why? It's simply a possibility amongst others.
On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
Thanks TheDwf, I assume I want to position these bunkers near my CC/production facilities?
Not really, or to put it that way it's a side effect on some maps rather than the primary purpose. Let's take Antiga for instance: open this image. The blue arrows show the two common possibilities for his elevator's location: against most openings, gas first Marine/Hellion elevator has the strongest army (7 Marines, 3 Hellions, 1 Medivac) by the time they hit (~6'30), so for them it's wise to elevator as soon as possible (time is against them as you reinforce while they do not, or at least not instantly), which is why they take the shortest road to hit you. Therefore, you have to cover the space represented by the red arrow, so you make Bunkers at the green locations in order to (a) shield your Marines who would otherwise suffer a quick and inefficient death and (b) prevent him from unloading his troops and heading right towards your mineral line; if he wants to reach your SCVs, he'll have to bypass your Bunkers, buying you precious time to thwart his next maneuver (e. g. if he tries to circumvent the cliff and elevator near your right Refinery).
On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
If I am opening fast cloakshee I am probably better just going straight into mech after expanding rather than bio?
Your choice; if you retain them, Banshees are a nice asset when going mech afterwards, but nothing forces you to head for mech, you can play Marines/Tanks after a Cloak Banshee opening, e. g. see Kas vs Lucifron, Daybreak, IEM Katowice.
On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
I play 1base all-ins because I struggle with the late-game TvT, is there a nice 2base all-in I could utilize in this matchup?
Not really; in certain circumstances you can decide not to make a third and kill him, but it depends on the interaction of the build orders and/or the compositions. 2-bases all-ins require some kind of asymmetry to work in TvT, otherwise you can't break his position due to his advantages, i. e. faster reinforcement since he's at home and the strength of defensive sieged Tanks. (As such, mech can sometimes go 2-bases all-in against pure bio because he has zero Tank to block/slow your progression should he fall behind in army for some reason.)
On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
Another question in TvZ I play 11/11rax, once I get my bunkers up and kill the nat and contain what is the best follow-up?
Depends on what happened before. When you 11/11 you have to scout his main before your attack so you know if he's getting gas or not, because some Zergs will sacrifice their natural, morph a Spine at the edge of the creep in your main and try to stall until they get Speedlings and Banelings (Roaches are inferior, he should not have enough economy to make enough of them to break efficiently Bunkers); so if you scouted gas and you see he does not try to defend his Hatchery, you can try to get a Bunker at the top of his ramp to support an attack in his main (it's optional; be cautious if you do that, you don't want to lose your contain), otherwise:
- expand;
- using the 2 Barracks you already have, prepare a rax wall on your natural (it takes 13 Banelings to destroy a Barracks, which is tremendously expensive for a 1-base Zerg) with a Bunker behind;
- get dual gas → tech Hellions and possibly Banshees afterwards (or bio tech, depending on how safe you are, if you intend to play Marines).
The order of those three actions is situational / up to you. This follow-up is good whether he locks himself into a 1-base all-in or simply uses some Banelings to reclaim his natural: in the first case you have Hellions to defend, in the second you have them for defence and map control. Against Roaches you can get either Banshees or Marauders.
You have to avoid at all costs the situation in which he runby 25+ Speedlings ignoring your Bunkers, heads towards your natural before it's walled and morphs several Banelings there, because it's checkmate: your Depot wall will easily fall and you'll have nothing at home to defend SCVs.
See Bogus vs HyuN, Abyssal City, GSL Code S Season 5, RO4.
On January 19 2013 23:13 halpimcat wrote:
Here's a situation that happens a lot, especially on maps like daybreak. I open 1 rax with a CC on the low ground. I scout him going proxy marauder and get my bunker up in time, using a couple scvs and a marine to fend off the first marauder trying to kill my building bunker. I get my bunker down, my CC is about done, I have a marine in my bunker, and all seems well...And he slips 1, 2, maybe 3 marauders in the back of my natural mineral line by simply running past my bunker with 1 or 2 marines cause they dont kill them fast enough. I'll be able to kill the marauders with some effort, but I STILL will end up behind with all those shenanigans.
Sounds like you're not paying enough respect to his cheese: go depot bunker CC instead of expanding before second Depot (your scouting SCV should be in his base early enough so you can deviate from your 1 rax FE before second Depot), and keep producing Marines so your Bunker is full; this way he cannot walk by your Bunker with his Marauders or they just take too much damage and are easily killed. Check with a Marine if he keeps producing Marauders, if not expect a Reaper.
On January 20 2013 00:22 KAB00000000M wrote:
On the current ladder pool. Are there any maps you usually go CC first vs going 1Rax Fe?
Nope, I don't particularly like CC first. I used to play CC first on Antiga and Entombed Valley hoping for a late scout from my opponent, thus preventing him from adjusting in time, but now that the first/second/last scout lottery is over this trick does not work anymore.
Due to the distances in the current map pool you can CC first on all maps, though obviously you may be proxied on 2-positions maps.
On January 20 2013 03:06 Pyrox wrote:
Diamond terran here; little question about applying pressure with your banshee/hellions harrass with cloack. (TvZ)
Is it better to deny his third, get my own up and tech up to marine tank medivac push later on. Or do damage in main/neutral, killing drones/queens?
I find to better to deny his third as long as possible, to tech up in tanks etc. and if he is goes for a big roach push I can hold it easily with bunkers/banshee. And 2 base muta shouldnt be a problem either. what do you think!?
many thanks
Generally you shouldn't be able to deny his third since he should start it anywhere between 5' and 6'30, so manhandling Queens is preferable as they're the backbone of his defence.
On January 20 2013 11:44 Whatson wrote:
Any tips on storm-dodging? Especially in late/mid-game 170-180ish battles before ghost production.
Treat High Templars as 9-range Banelings: whenever Templars close in on your bio, select small groups of your pre-spread units then scatter them in a wider arc; repeat as necessary.
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On January 21 2013 08:33 Kasu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 08:16 KAB00000000M wrote:
I have heard a lot of different opinions on the marine vs marauder thing. Weird. I have (as far as I recall) never once heard to cut marines in favour of marauders lategame vP, but frequently hear the opposite (i.e. marine/ghost/viking only).
I'm talking ridiculous amounts of ghosts, like 25. They melt through zealots since they do 20ish damage to them (plus snipes, if you have time for that) and they can tank quite a bit of damage if you can avoid them getting stormed and lasered too much.
Marines die too quickly for my tastes. Fuck 'em.
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They shouldn't die too quickly if you emp correctly and actually use your Vikings, while putting the marines in a decent concave. Just because it's your personal preference doesn't mean it is what should be correctly done.
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I just watched Polt play a TvP in HOTS while only using WOL units. He basically made more ghosts than he did marines. And after every fight, only the ghosts (ok, none of the ghosts) and marauders (not many, but that's ok) were still alive and the entire P army was dead. Maybe he was just fucking around and I'm horribly wrong but I don't just see the point in not making many many ghosts when you have the economy for it.
Also, cloak. Scan, kill observers, EMP, cloak. So many possibilities.
If it matters, I heard this from qxc. And from my experiments with it, dude's not wrong. Who knows about how well it works at super high level though.
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On January 21 2013 10:42 kuroshiroi wrote:
I just watched Polt play a TvP in HOTS while only using WOL units. He basically made more ghosts than he did marines. And after every fight, only the ghosts (ok, none of the ghosts) and marauders (not many, but that's ok) were still alive and the entire P army was dead. Maybe he was just fucking around and I'm horribly wrong but I don't just see the point in not making many many ghosts when you have the economy for it.
Also, cloak. Scan, kill observers, EMP, cloak. So many possibilities.
If it matters, I heard this from qxc. And from my experiments with it, dude's not wrong. Who knows about how well it works at super high level though.
I saw that match, Polt is placed in daimond on hots for now. even if he attacked with 200 scv's he probably would still win. U should give a better example, like the qxc one and then back it up with a vod or utube^^ I will think having more ghosts would/could be good against templar, but im no expert
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How do I deal with a 2 base colossus all in? (Stalkers)
Presuming I'm going cc first or 1Rax FE. Then make total Rax of 3. Then 2x gas. Stim.
At what point do I have time to react. And what do I do when I know it is an all in for sure?
Do I have time to switch to viking production after my first 2 medivacs come out?
At this time I think I have 3 barracks. 2tech lab, 1 reactor. 1 reactor starport. + a CC being built.
I see so many pros losing to this. I guess you should just asap get vikings out?
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When playing Terran in most of my matchups I find myself rather lost; I know what units to build, how to macro et cetera -- I'm just unsure of what to do with my units. Versus Zerg I like to go 1 rax cc into 1-1-1 Hellion Banshee harass, and I then transition into a Marine Tank composition. I've read (and watched) a lot of stuff that explains how to open in that way, and how to use hellion banshee, that's not where my issue lies -- the issue is after I've secured my third, and I am actively producing marine tank. Once I have reached that point I usually just make units, and kinda, make it up. My question is what should I do from there?
I also have the same question for TvT, assuming I open marine hellion elevator; get my natural and start producing marine tank.
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On January 21 2013 10:42 kuroshiroi wrote:
I just watched Polt play a TvP in HOTS while only using WOL units. He basically made more ghosts than he did marines. And after every fight, only the ghosts (ok, none of the ghosts) and marauders (not many, but that's ok) were still alive and the entire P army was dead. Maybe he was just fucking around and I'm horribly wrong but I don't just see the point in not making many many ghosts when you have the economy for it.
Also, cloak. Scan, kill observers, EMP, cloak. So many possibilities.
If it matters, I heard this from qxc. And from my experiments with it, dude's not wrong. Who knows about how well it works at super high level though.
Yes you are meant to get a lot of ghosts and then marines.
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On January 21 2013 12:14 KAB00000000M wrote:
How do I deal with a 2 base colossus all in? (Stalkers)
Presuming I'm going cc first or 1Rax FE. Then make total Rax of 3. Then 2x gas. Stim.
At what point do I have time to react. And what do I do when I know it is an all in for sure?
Do I have time to switch to viking production after my first 2 medivacs come out?
At this time I think I have 3 barracks. 2tech lab, 1 reactor. 1 reactor starport. + a CC being built.
I see so many pros losing to this. I guess you should just asap get vikings out?
When your medivacs are building, your allready moving out, that's certainly around 10 min. When u move with the 2/4 medivacs towards his base and see colossus, buy time to do some damage or retreat to buy time. Build vikings from starport and built an extra starport with reactor. Now u have the prod. facilities to counter the colossus.
Since i watched Day9 Empire.kas tvp Part 2 it helped me alot, won alot more against protos. Part 1 is about his build (little different then yours), but part 2 is about descissionmaking strategywise. He points out that when u see collosus u built another starport and build vikings accordingly.
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On January 21 2013 21:28 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 12:14 KAB00000000M wrote:
How do I deal with a 2 base colossus all in? (Stalkers)
Presuming I'm going cc first or 1Rax FE. Then make total Rax of 3. Then 2x gas. Stim.
At what point do I have time to react. And what do I do when I know it is an all in for sure?
Do I have time to switch to viking production after my first 2 medivacs come out?
At this time I think I have 3 barracks. 2tech lab, 1 reactor. 1 reactor starport. + a CC being built.
I see so many pros losing to this. I guess you should just asap get vikings out? When your medivacs are building, your allready moving out, that's certainly around 10 min. When u move with the 2/4 medivacs towards his base and see colossus, buy time to do some damage or retreat to buy time. Build vikings from starport and built an extra starport with reactor. Now u have the prod. facilities to counter the colossus. Since i watched Day9 Empire.kas tvp Part 2 it helped me alot, won alot more against protos. Part 1 is about his build (little different then yours), but part 2 is about descissionmaking strategywise. He points out that when u see collosus u built another starport and build vikings accordingly.
Thanks
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On January 21 2013 08:28 kollin wrote:
Well everyone who said marauder is wrong. Ver and TheDwf have both said go with essentially no marauders and if you watch top level play you wil see the same.
Well, I think in the midlategame you need marines, 10 ghosts, some medivacs and some vikings (and very few marauders)
But: in the lategame you need mass ghosts, 8 medivacs, a ton of vikings and a few marauders. No marines (they are useless in the lategame, you better have a cloacked ghost then 2 marines).
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On January 22 2013 00:29 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 08:28 kollin wrote:
Well everyone who said marauder is wrong. Ver and TheDwf have both said go with essentially no marauders and if you watch top level play you wil see the same. Well, I think in the midlategame you need marines, 10 ghosts, some medivacs and some vikings (and very few marauders) But: in the lategame you need mass ghosts, 8 medivacs, a ton of vikings and a few marauders. No marines (they are useless in the lategame, you better have a cloacked ghost then 2 marines).
In the late late game you want BC Ghost actually, otherwise good luck engaging into the wall of cannons your opponent has.
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On January 22 2013 01:30 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 00:29 Snowbear wrote:On January 21 2013 08:28 kollin wrote:
Well everyone who said marauder is wrong. Ver and TheDwf have both said go with essentially no marauders and if you watch top level play you wil see the same. Well, I think in the midlategame you need marines, 10 ghosts, some medivacs and some vikings (and very few marauders) But: in the lategame you need mass ghosts, 8 medivacs, a ton of vikings and a few marauders. No marines (they are useless in the lategame, you better have a cloacked ghost then 2 marines). In the late late game you want BC Ghost actually, otherwise good luck engaging into the wall of cannons your opponent has.
He can't have mass cannons everywhere. On daybreak they can tough. I break that wall with nukes and my army behind that ghost casting it. Battlecruisers? What protoss let's you transition to that? You need 3-3 airgrades. Why not use your 3-3 bio grades?
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On January 21 2013 23:14 KAB00000000M wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 21:28 govie wrote:On January 21 2013 12:14 KAB00000000M wrote:
How do I deal with a 2 base colossus all in? (Stalkers)
Presuming I'm going cc first or 1Rax FE. Then make total Rax of 3. Then 2x gas. Stim.
At what point do I have time to react. And what do I do when I know it is an all in for sure?
Do I have time to switch to viking production after my first 2 medivacs come out?
At this time I think I have 3 barracks. 2tech lab, 1 reactor. 1 reactor starport. + a CC being built.
I see so many pros losing to this. I guess you should just asap get vikings out? When your medivacs are building, your allready moving out, that's certainly around 10 min. When u move with the 2/4 medivacs towards his base and see colossus, buy time to do some damage or retreat to buy time. Build vikings from starport and built an extra starport with reactor. Now u have the prod. facilities to counter the colossus. Since i watched Day9 Empire.kas tvp Part 2 it helped me alot, won alot more against protos. Part 1 is about his build (little different then yours), but part 2 is about descissionmaking strategywise. He points out that when u see collosus u built another starport and build vikings accordingly. Thanks
And don't build 10 medivacs or something. 4 is enough until viking count is high enough to deal with colossus, u can switch back to medi's later if u need too.
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On January 22 2013 01:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 01:30 kollin wrote:On January 22 2013 00:29 Snowbear wrote:On January 21 2013 08:28 kollin wrote:
Well everyone who said marauder is wrong. Ver and TheDwf have both said go with essentially no marauders and if you watch top level play you wil see the same. Well, I think in the midlategame you need marines, 10 ghosts, some medivacs and some vikings (and very few marauders) But: in the lategame you need mass ghosts, 8 medivacs, a ton of vikings and a few marauders. No marines (they are useless in the lategame, you better have a cloacked ghost then 2 marines). In the late late game you want BC Ghost actually, otherwise good luck engaging into the wall of cannons your opponent has. He can't have mass cannons everywhere. On daybreak they can tough. I break that wall with nukes and my army behind that ghost casting it. Battlecruisers? What protoss let's you transition to that? You need 3-3 airgrades. Why not use your 3-3 bio grades?
You should have +3 attack anyway and at this point you are turtling so you can get to that +3 armor.
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On January 21 2013 08:46 TheDwf wrote:- expand;
- using the 2 Barracks you already have, prepare a rax wall on your natural (it takes 13 Banelings to destroy a Barracks, which is tremendously expensive for a 1-base Zerg) with a Bunker behind;
- get dual gas → tech Hellions and possibly Banshees afterwards (or bio tech, depending on how safe you are, if you intend to play Marines).
The order of those three actions is situational / up to you. This follow-up is good whether he locks himself into a 1-base all-in or simply uses some Banelings to reclaim his natural: in the first case you have Hellions to defend, in the second you have them for defence and map control. Against Roaches you can get either Banshees or Marauders. You have to avoid at all costs the situation in which he runby 25+ Speedlings ignoring your Bunkers, heads towards your natural before it's walled and morphs several Banelings there, because it's checkmate: your Depot wall will easily fall and you'll have nothing at home to defend SCVs. See Bogus vs HyuN, Abyssal City, GSL Code S Season 5, RO4.
I use the 11/11 also against zerg. After the harras i also built the rax-wall with bunkers behind it. I'm safe! I get my economy going and get marine/tank army. Eventually i want to take my 3rd. Most of the time, when my army moves out to take the 3rd, my army gets grilled by banelings/zerglings.
1. Is hellion/banshee a must do transition? (marine/tank transition is not viable)
2. If the marine tank transition is viable, how do i position my army, after i lift my wall, in a way the banelings do a minimal amount of damage and i can take my 3rd, on for example antiga shipyard?
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EPT
