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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hello!
I need a little help.
Its not directly a strategic question, but i'm bit confused.
The replay: http://drop.sc/297386
I made a drop with 3 hellions - directly reacted with stalkers ...
After that i mad a drop with 3 medivacs ... and he moves his stalkers directly to my point of drop.
During my flight, he scouted my base with a stalker and see, that there is not that much home.
But how can he know, that i will drop directly there, where he moves his complete stalkers.
There where no observers....
Im total confused....
Best regards,
Andreas
Edit: I watched the replay with his vision - he dont know where my base is and simply looked at my ramp at 11:something. What is this?!?!
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On January 22 2013 06:02 badboybC wrote:Hello! I need a little help. Its not directly a strategic question, but i'm bit confused. The replay: http://drop.sc/297386I made a drop with 3 hellions - directly reacted with stalkers ... After that i mad a drop with 3 medivacs ... and he moves his stalkers directly to my point of drop. During my flight, he scouted my base with a stalker and see, that there is not that much home. But how can he know, that i will drop directly there, where he moves his complete stalkers. There where no observers.... Im total confused.... Best regards, Andreas Edit: I watched the replay with his vision - he dont know where my base is and simply looked at my ramp at 11:something. What is this?!?!
Indeed, if maphack existed for sc2-WoL, this player would be suspicious wouldn't he But still u shouldn't drop so much. Drops are to harras not to make it ur prima offensive weapon. Most of the time u loose alot of troops in this way, just A+move is way better and maphack doesnt help against that alot.
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On January 22 2013 06:58 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 06:02 badboybC wrote:Hello! I need a little help. Its not directly a strategic question, but i'm bit confused. The replay: http://drop.sc/297386I made a drop with 3 hellions - directly reacted with stalkers ... After that i mad a drop with 3 medivacs ... and he moves his stalkers directly to my point of drop. During my flight, he scouted my base with a stalker and see, that there is not that much home. But how can he know, that i will drop directly there, where he moves his complete stalkers. There where no observers.... Im total confused.... Best regards, Andreas Edit: I watched the replay with his vision - he dont know where my base is and simply looked at my ramp at 11:something. What is this?!?! Indeed, if maphack existed for sc2-WoL, this player would be suspicious wouldn't he But still u shouldn't drop so much. Drops are to harras not to make it ur prima offensive weapon. Most of the time u loose alot of troops in this way, just A+move is way better and maphack doesnt help against that alot.
Ok, thats true - but i was totally confused after the first drop :O It was so directly reacted from him - before i drop. And he looked in my base at 11:41 .... without knowing im there ...
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quick question: at which time does the zerg normally go for a 3rd hatch after scouting my fast expansion?
Or to put it in another way: at which time do I know that the zerg is going for a two base strat, if I scout the zerg without 3rd?
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On January 21 2013 08:46 TheDwf wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
Thanks TheDwf, I assume I want to position these bunkers near my CC/production facilities? Not really, or to put it that way it's a side effect on some maps rather than the primary purpose. Let's take Antiga for instance: open this image. The blue arrows show the two common possibilities for his elevator's location: against most openings, gas first Marine/Hellion elevator has the strongest army (7 Marines, 3 Hellions, 1 Medivac) by the time they hit (~6'30), so for them it's wise to elevator as soon as possible (time is against them as you reinforce while they do not, or at least not instantly), which is why they take the shortest road to hit you. Therefore, you have to cover the space represented by the red arrow, so you make Bunkers at the green locations in order to (a) shield your Marines who would otherwise suffer a quick and inefficient death and (b) prevent him from unloading his troops and heading right towards your mineral line; if he wants to reach your SCVs, he'll have to bypass your Bunkers, buying you precious time to thwart his next maneuver (e. g. if he tries to circumvent the cliff and elevator near your right Refinery). On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
If I am opening fast cloakshee I am probably better just going straight into mech after expanding rather than bio? Your choice; if you retain them, Banshees are a nice asset when going mech afterwards, but nothing forces you to head for mech, you can play Marines/Tanks after a Cloak Banshee opening, e. g. see Kas vs Lucifron, Daybreak, IEM Katowice. On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
I play 1base all-ins because I struggle with the late-game TvT, is there a nice 2base all-in I could utilize in this matchup? Not really; in certain circumstances you can decide not to make a third and kill him, but it depends on the interaction of the build orders and/or the compositions. 2-bases all-ins require some kind of asymmetry to work in TvT, otherwise you can't break his position due to his advantages, i. e. faster reinforcement since he's at home and the strength of defensive sieged Tanks. (As such, mech can sometimes go 2-bases all-in against pure bio because he has zero Tank to block/slow your progression should he fall behind in army for some reason.) On January 19 2013 22:31 Marathi wrote:
Another question in TvZ I play 11/11rax, once I get my bunkers up and kill the nat and contain what is the best follow-up? Depends on what happened before. When you 11/11 you have to scout his main before your attack so you know if he's getting gas or not, because some Zergs will sacrifice their natural, morph a Spine at the edge of the creep in your main and try to stall until they get Speedlings and Banelings (Roaches are inferior, he should not have enough economy to make enough of them to break efficiently Bunkers); so if you scouted gas and you see he does not try to defend his Hatchery, you can try to get a Bunker at the top of his ramp to support an attack in his main (it's optional; be cautious if you do that, you don't want to lose your contain), otherwise: - expand;
- using the 2 Barracks you already have, prepare a rax wall on your natural (it takes 13 Banelings to destroy a Barracks, which is tremendously expensive for a 1-base Zerg) with a Bunker behind;
- get dual gas → tech Hellions and possibly Banshees afterwards (or bio tech, depending on how safe you are, if you intend to play Marines).
The order of those three actions is situational / up to you. This follow-up is good whether he locks himself into a 1-base all-in or simply uses some Banelings to reclaim his natural: in the first case you have Hellions to defend, in the second you have them for defence and map control. Against Roaches you can get either Banshees or Marauders. You have to avoid at all costs the situation in which he runby 25+ Speedlings ignoring your Bunkers, heads towards your natural before it's walled and morphs several Banelings there, because it's checkmate: your Depot wall will easily fall and you'll have nothing at home to defend SCVs. See Bogus vs HyuN, Abyssal City, GSL Code S Season 5, RO4.
Thanks TheDwf I will learn from your advice and apply it to my game
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On January 22 2013 07:58 JustPassingBy wrote:
quick question: at which time does the zerg normally go for a 3rd hatch after scouting my fast expansion?
Or to put it in another way: at which time do I know that the zerg is going for a two base strat, if I scout the zerg without 3rd?
I usually take my third when my 3rd and 4th queen are 75% done. You know a zerg is going for a 2 base if he takes early gases, or lair before third, or his third is later than something like 7-8 minutes, I think. I could check a replay to see at which timing my third is going down, but some zergs might take it a bit later. I think 7-8 is about right.
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What's the best way to protect against mass dt harass late-mid to late game? When the protoss just decides to warp in 6-12 dts because he has the gas to, and just sends a handful to each of my 3-4 bases at once, and maybe even my own army if he feels like it? Should I just make a bunker and turret as soon as each base is up to prevent it pre-emptively?
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On January 22 2013 16:55 halpimcat wrote:
What's the best way to protect against mass dt harass late-mid to late game? When the protoss just decides to warp in 6-12 dts because he has the gas to, and just sends a handful to each of my 3-4 bases at once, and maybe even my own army if he feels like it? Should I just make a bunker and turret as soon as each base is up to prevent it pre-emptively?
Main to 3rd expo is defendable with a bunker and 1 turret on there ramps and if u dont wanna use scans, a turret at the minerals to be extremely safe. Your 4th and other expo's could be made an PF with some turrets (thats what i do against P. PF destroys dt's and protects ur mineral lines that are farther away from your production facilities.
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Are there any situations where it can be useful to upgrade Neosteel Frame for bunkers?
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Another question. Sorry for 2x posts so quickly.
- Defending all ins with 3CC
TheDwf wrote this:
"If you want to be sure no early Baneling bust is coming while you're going triple OC, aim at having your SCV in the Zerg's base by 3'30. If you notice gas taken before Pool, you can get dual gas right away; if not, you can triple OC knowing that any agression will come later with delayed gases.
Note that ironically enough, triple OC is safer against pure Roach agression because you can fill the Bunker with 4 Marines instead of 3 if you don't cut Marines, and you recover faster from SCVs losses thanks to your third OC being already complete."
Can you explain how you get 4 marines instead of 3? Is it compared to 2CC? Is it because you don't cut marines because you do not have enough minerals to make all OC right away?
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On January 22 2013 03:38 govie wrote:
I use the 11/11 also against zerg. After the harras i also built the rax-wall with bunkers behind it. I'm safe! I get my economy going and get marine/tank army. Eventually i want to take my 3rd. Most of the time, when my army moves out to take the 3rd, my army gets grilled by banelings/zerglings.
1. Is hellion/banshee a must do transition? (marine/tank transition is not viable)
2. If the marine tank transition is viable, how do i position my army, after i lift my wall, in a way the banelings do a minimal amount of damage and i can take my 3rd, on for example antiga shipyard?
Banshees are not mandatory but going 6-8 Hellions (don't lose them so you can secure your third without troubles) is better than teching Tanks straight away. As always it also depends on what happened with the 11/11 attack, maybe you were behind or you played overly safe and he caught up.
On January 22 2013 07:58 JustPassingBy wrote:
quick question: at which time does the zerg normally go for a 3rd hatch after scouting my fast expansion?
Anytime between 5' (can be earlier of course) and 6'30.
On January 22 2013 16:55 halpimcat wrote:
What's the best way to protect against mass dt harass late-mid to late game? When the protoss just decides to warp in 6-12 dts because he has the gas to, and just sends a handful to each of my 3-4 bases at once, and maybe even my own army if he feels like it? Should I just make a bunker and turret as soon as each base is up to prevent it pre-emptively?
Answered in OP.
On January 22 2013 22:01 KAB00000000M wrote:
Are there any situations where it can be useful to upgrade Neosteel Frame for bunkers?
Commonly no.
On January 22 2013 22:13 KAB00000000M wrote:
Another question. Sorry for 2x posts so quickly.
- Defending all ins with 3CC
TheDwf wrote this:
"If you want to be sure no early Baneling bust is coming while you're going triple OC, aim at having your SCV in the Zerg's base by 3'30. If you notice gas taken before Pool, you can get dual gas right away; if not, you can triple OC knowing that any agression will come later with delayed gases.
Note that ironically enough, triple OC is safer against pure Roach agression because you can fill the Bunker with 4 Marines instead of 3 if you don't cut Marines, and you recover faster from SCVs losses thanks to your third OC being already complete."
Can you explain how you get 4 marines instead of 3? Is it compared to 2CC? Is it because you don't cut marines because you do not have enough minerals to make all OC right away?
You can get 4 Marines in your Bunker when you go CC depot CC vs 3 when you go CC gas gas depot, but you can also have 4 with CC depot gas gas (in which case Hellions/Banshees are a bit delayed though). I was mostly talking about light Roach pressure (no more than 7); don't really like my answer anymore so don't read too much into it, it's too imprecise so I'll clarify this later.
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Ok. Thanks. But I don't really understand. (I know you said you will clarify later)
And going CC first build. You do not need to get a depot between? If you CC first. Your CC will finish in time for the supply to be maxed anyways right? That's what I don't understand with build orders where they say depot after the cc. Because. If you go 1RaxFE, then you need a depot after your rax yes. But that is because the rax comes early right?
The last games I saw with cc first, they didn't make a depot right after their CC. They did for example (Flash vs Vampire - GSL 2013 U&D Group A) CC first - rax rax (1st and 2nd) - OC + OC - rax (3rd) - depot
Do I make any sense or is this just a lot of mess? :|
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On January 23 2013 02:38 KAB00000000M wrote:
Ok. Thanks. But I don't really understand. (I know you said you will clarify later)
And going CC first build. You do not need to get a depot between? If you CC first. Your CC will finish in time for the supply to be maxed anyways right? That's what I don't understand with build orders where they say depot after the cc. Because. If you go 1RaxFE, then you need a depot after your rax yes. But that is because the rax comes early right?
The last games I saw with cc first, they didn't make a depot right after their CC. They did for example (Flash vs Vampire - GSL 2013 U&D Group A) CC first - rax rax (1st and 2nd) - OC + OC - rax (3rd) - depot
Do I make any sense or is this just a lot of mess? :|
he means barracks expands. You can go gas before your depot cutting scv and marine production for a little while to have faster tech or you can get gas after your depot to be slightly safer vs those roach rushes because you have an extra marine.
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On January 23 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote:
Banshees are not mandatory but going 6-8 Hellions (don't lose them so you can secure your third without troubles) is better than teching Tanks straight away. As always it also depends on what happened with the 11/11 attack, maybe you were behind or you played overly safe and he caught up.
I indeed didn't succeed to kill the natural and was a bit behind after that, happens sometimes when doing 11/11. But i also have had easy wins with the 11/11. It's worth the risk. But thats what the wall is for to play catchup if it fails. But i'm guessing i am playing overly safe after failed 11/11's. Next time ill try to follow it up with hellions for some mapcontrol/scouting/harras purposes.
Thx. again DwF
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On January 23 2013 02:45 xPabt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 02:38 KAB00000000M wrote:
Ok. Thanks. But I don't really understand. (I know you said you will clarify later)
And going CC first build. You do not need to get a depot between? If you CC first. Your CC will finish in time for the supply to be maxed anyways right? That's what I don't understand with build orders where they say depot after the cc. Because. If you go 1RaxFE, then you need a depot after your rax yes. But that is because the rax comes early right?
The last games I saw with cc first, they didn't make a depot right after their CC. They did for example (Flash vs Vampire - GSL 2013 U&D Group A) CC first - rax rax (1st and 2nd) - OC + OC - rax (3rd) - depot
Do I make any sense or is this just a lot of mess? :| he means barracks expands. You can go gas before your depot cutting scv and marine production for a little while to have faster tech or you can get gas after your depot to be slightly safer vs those roach rushes because you have an extra marine.
This. And when you go 1 rax CC depot CC you get dual gas later, so you have time to get 4 Marines before making a Reactor on your Barracks after your Factory.
With CC first, yes you don't need your second Depot immediately as the second CC puts you at /30.
On January 23 2013 03:04 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 01:52 TheDwf wrote:
Banshees are not mandatory but going 6-8 Hellions (don't lose them so you can secure your third without troubles) is better than teching Tanks straight away. As always it also depends on what happened with the 11/11 attack, maybe you were behind or you played overly safe and he caught up.
I indeed didn't succeed to kill the natural and was a bit behind after that, happens sometimes when doing 11/11.
Yep; just load the replay after your loss to see the numbers after the attack is defended, this way you will know if it was playable or lost anyway. I think I talked a bit about evaluating the situation after 11/11 in the OP.
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Ok thanks to both of you!
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What is the earliest time a third nexus can go down in TvP?
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On January 23 2013 16:27 herMan wrote:
What is the earliest time a third nexus can go down in TvP?
4'45 - 5'30 with 1 gate double expand.
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So i lose every single TvZ despite usually being pretty ahead into the mid/ or late game with some form of attacks/better macro/harass etc. I drop a decent amount to kill off bases, esp when they are on T3, i try to draw them out of position and transition to more tanks/thors and marauders as the game goes late. Despite all that, they just 1a with ling infestor ultra and win every game. I usually am spread out. try to have as much hitting as possible. is there any kind of army that can compete wtih that? At diamond level I woudl rather face broods bc at elast i can try to use air and ravens and stuff, but against ultra the only thing i see that can win is them attackinginto a tiny choke with ultras with a giant terran concave at the top, is to have godly micro. I'm so sick of losing please tell me what I am supposed to do after my 3rd is up and running to stop this ultra army bc other than them falling apart to drops adn not just 1A into me before they are maxxed, i dont see it. I honestly am at the poitn of just leaving every time i get a TvZ.
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EPT
