EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 342
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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SKDN
Sweden243 Posts
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Jaegeru
United Kingdom676 Posts
I normally just add them on when I start my starport but feel that is a little late. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On August 24 2012 07:53 Jaegeru wrote: In both tvt and tvp when should I be building my 2nd and 3rd add-ons for my barracks after opening a standard 1Rax CC. I normally just add them on when I start my starport but feel that is a little late. I usually go like this: 1 rax CC -> when I have 300 minerals, add 2x rax, then at 150 minerals, add 2x gasses in main This method doesn't delay the starport too much, but gives you a lot of marines to defend against allins, banshee harasses, etc. | ||
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Jaegeru
United Kingdom676 Posts
On August 24 2012 07:56 Blazinghand wrote: I usually go like this: 1 rax CC -> when I have 300 minerals, add 2x rax, then at 150 minerals, add 2x gasses in main This method doesn't delay the starport too much, but gives you a lot of marines to defend against allins, banshee harasses, etc. I probably worded it wrong, but I'm fine with my opening being 1Rax CC and adding on my two extra rax and then two gases and a tech lab at 25 gas and getting CS / Stim at the next 100 gas. But when should I add my 2nd and 3rd add ons for my barracks (be it a tech lab or two extra reactors or whatever). Just that I'm approaching masters and I've never really known when to do it and normally just do it whenever inbetween putting down my factory and starport, I was only wondering as I feel I should be refining my build more. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On August 24 2012 08:23 Jaegeru wrote: I probably worded it wrong, but I'm fine with my opening being 1Rax CC and adding on my two extra rax and then two gases and a tech lab at 25 gas and getting CS / Stim at the next 100 gas. But when should I add my 2nd and 3rd add ons for my barracks (be it a tech lab or two extra reactors or whatever). Just that I'm approaching masters and I've never really known when to do it and normally just do it whenever inbetween putting down my factory and starport, I was only wondering as I feel I should be refining my build more. oh wow I totally misread you. Yeah, I personally don't make addons for my rax until I've started a starport, except for a tech lab on my first rax which I use to get upgrades and marauders if he's making stalkers. I think this is safe. I personally don't use a ton of reactors though, sometimes I add more rax. my bad misunderstanding you | ||
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Deleted User 255289
281 Posts
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On August 24 2012 09:08 superbarnie wrote: Wait a minute! You don't build addons for the 2nd and 3rd rax? FilterSC told me to get addons for all the raxes before the factory! If I don't get addons won't my production be much less? Do you add more raxes to make up for it? If so how many? technically if you don't get addons your production won't be halted for a long time (reactors take quite awhile to build) as well... >> | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 24 2012 04:50 SKDN wrote: How the fuck do you beat toss on 3 bases on cloud kingdom just feels impossible T,T You take your 4th, add ports, make banshees and extra tanks if his ground army is scary (heavy archon/immortal or 8+ colos), else start bc production if you're safe, pf the watch tower so you can take the expo near it as your 5th as you add on bcs. Since it's hard to attack on the map start nuking his expos. This is easy if his army is marching along the highground threatening your 4th and 5th. Split your tanks up if you need to defend small waves of aggression and just have your thor/ghost/air follow his army movement. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 24 2012 08:23 Jaegeru wrote: I probably worded it wrong, but I'm fine with my opening being 1Rax CC and adding on my two extra rax and then two gases and a tech lab at 25 gas and getting CS / Stim at the next 100 gas. But when should I add my 2nd and 3rd add ons for my barracks (be it a tech lab or two extra reactors or whatever). Just that I'm approaching masters and I've never really known when to do it and normally just do it whenever inbetween putting down my factory and starport, I was only wondering as I feel I should be refining my build more. It is correct to get your add-ons about the time that you get your starport. Before that point, you want all of your gas income directed toward getting up fast stim, +1, as well as factory + starport. Generally pros will get 2 teachlabs + 1 reactor, and this balances out your mostly marine composition up to this point. If you open with a CC first or a 2rax, you'll generally have the 2 add-ons (reactor + teachlab) early and about 9:30 medivacs. | ||
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Kid-Fox
Canada400 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
On August 24 2012 14:30 Kid-Fox wrote: Why don't zergs pretend to allin more? What I mean is zergs building a baneling nest/roach warren really quickly and allin if the terran is being excessively greedy, while droning and taking bases if the terran is defending an allin that's not coming. I don't know how I'm supposed to deal with such a thing. It feels like such a gamble, either defending an allin or risking losing the game very quickly to punish the zerg's greed. Might be a question for the Zerg thread or the Protoss thread, but the basic reason is that SHOWING a baneling nest isn't necessary-- for all you know, the Zerg's hidden one somewhere. That and gas counts. Basically, all the stuff that involves faking an all-in involves having less minerals, tech, or drones, either from making extractors, mining from them, or making buildings and units with your larvae instead of drones. Zerg faces very harsh choices between defense/attack and tech and economy. As a result, fake all-ins are relatively rare on the ladder. You'll see them in tournaments though, since series play can be that way. | ||
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
(I'm asking because I'm inclined to think that getting thors is more profitable due to upgrade synergies, no need to pay for ports, cloak etc. but I don't have the knowledge to assess this properly.) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 24 2012 14:30 Kid-Fox wrote: Why don't zergs pretend to allin more? What I mean is zergs building a baneling nest/roach warren really quickly and allin if the terran is being excessively greedy, while droning and taking bases if the terran is defending an allin that's not coming. I don't know how I'm supposed to deal with such a thing. It feels like such a gamble, either defending an allin or risking losing the game very quickly to punish the zerg's greed. Well...the only thing zerg gains from pretending to all-in a terran is map control...if hellions, banshees, or medivacs aren't in play. So, quite honestly, the reason is because it literally gives zerg no advantage as terran has to continually build units anyway and bunkers are basically free. That being said, most terrans can still get up 3 really fast CCs safely anyway against zerg aggression as long as they have good scouting info. I think it's best for zerg to just use it's tool of unpredictability; when a baneling nest goes down, zerg can do a really strong baneling bust only a minute later. No reason to threaten it when you can just do it when the time is right. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 24 2012 22:32 NewbieOne wrote: In TvZ, on paper, while banshees after hellions (or a similar use of banshees) are quite efficient for a number of reasons, aren't they actually less efficient than continued factory production, skipping ports & air ups altogether (marine/mech or pure mech)? (I'm asking because I'm inclined to think that getting thors is more profitable due to upgrade synergies, no need to pay for ports, cloak etc. but I don't have the knowledge to assess this properly.) If you look at this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361824 The reason why banshees are the natural followup to hellions is not because they're more effective but because they buy enough time for a critical mass of thors to get up. If you don't buy enough time and force the zerg to be defensive with hellion/banshee, you can easily die to a flood of mass roaches before getting a safe number of thors. Watch LastShadow versus Ret at the RedBull Battlegrounds for an example. Now, you can also do a biomech with 2 factories producing BFH and 2-3 rax producing marines for a strong timing attack. This attack buys you enough time to get thors into the mix, but mostly this is kind of an all-in build. Look at MKP vs. Golden in MLG Winter Arena. | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
On August 24 2012 08:23 Jaegeru wrote: I probably worded it wrong, but I'm fine with my opening being 1Rax CC and adding on my two extra rax and then two gases and a tech lab at 25 gas and getting CS / Stim at the next 100 gas. But when should I add my 2nd and 3rd add ons for my barracks (be it a tech lab or two extra reactors or whatever). Just that I'm approaching masters and I've never really known when to do it and normally just do it whenever inbetween putting down my factory and starport, I was only wondering as I feel I should be refining my build more. The general time is after you started your starport. However if i scout 1 base play i add them right away to have a better production and faster bio upgradea (stim, cs, c shell) as well as an early ebay aggainst cloack tech. | ||
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
On August 24 2012 22:32 NewbieOne wrote: In TvZ, on paper, while banshees after hellions (or a similar use of banshees) are quite efficient for a number of reasons, aren't they actually less efficient than continued factory production, skipping ports & air ups altogether (marine/mech or pure mech)? (I'm asking because I'm inclined to think that getting thors is more profitable due to upgrade synergies, no need to pay for ports, cloak etc. but I don't have the knowledge to assess this properly.) Undoubtedly factory units have more firepower, but banshees are a lot better for keeping an eye on what the zerg is up to. Thors aren't really great scouting units. | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 25 2012 12:33 DelugeSC wrote: What is the best way to go mech in TvT? Is it better to do it off of a 1 Rax FE, or is it more beneficial to go with a hellion drop or cloaked banshee opener? I'm having trouble picking one way or another to open and was wondering if there is an ideal opening build for terran mech in tvt. A very common opening for mech is hellion/viking. You should check out Puma vs. ForGG from IEM; there was a really good example of hellion/viking into both players going mech, and ForGG executes a flawless victory. | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
I see more and more players do the hellion-banshee into fast 3rd with double ups for a ~ 14 minute timing attack at the zerg 3rd. Since my opening (1 rax fe into 3 rax cs timing push at 3rd) doesn´t seem to work well after i hit master league i want to try myself into the more standard stuff (I allways hated the early hellion micro, so i never really played with reactor hellion builds to begin with). I found ForGG uses a very fast reactor hellion opening with a 16 CC then 2 gas then depot and then continue scv and marine production. My first question is: Is there a way to scout with an scv to check for the gas timings? Since i don´t see ForGG ever scout with this build. I want to use it in ladder, but since you have to consider cheese i want at least an early scouting scv. When would you scout with a scv using this build? If not is there a version of the reactor hellion build which allows you to sneak in a scouting scv? Another question: Is the normal way to go for a fast 3rd + double ups to just get banshees without cloak? Or is it also viable to do it with cloak? (I´m talking about the transition into marine,tank,medivac.) | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 25 2012 20:49 Sianos wrote: Hi guys, i have some questions regarding TvZ. I see more and more players do the hellion-banshee into fast 3rd with double ups for a ~ 14 minute timing attack at the zerg 3rd. Since my opening (1 rax fe into 3 rax cs timing push at 3rd) doesn´t seem to work well after i hit master league i want to try myself into the more standard stuff (I allways hated the early hellion micro, so i never really played with reactor hellion builds to begin with). I found ForGG uses a very fast reactor hellion opening with a 16 CC then 2 gas then depot and then continue scv and marine production. My first question is: Is there a way to scout with an scv to check for the gas timings? Since i don´t see ForGG ever scout with this build. I want to use it in ladder, but since you have to consider cheese i want at least an early scouting scv. When would you scout with a scv using this build? If not is there a version of the reactor hellion build which allows you to sneak in a scouting scv? Another question: Is the normal way to go for a fast 3rd + double ups to just get banshees without cloak? Or is it also viable to do it with cloak? (I´m talking about the transition into marine,tank,medivac.) I actually don't have any experience doing this build, but I have good knowledge of it. Like you, I preferred marine openings, but it seems that as time goes on and skill increases, hellions are becoming the only way to open aggressively in TvZ. As for the scouting, you should be able to scout with your barracks SCV. I think ForGG is just imba Code S, so he doesn't need to scout for silly things like 1-base baneling busts and such, so he generally just skips this scout. Either way, with a good wall-off and extremely good micro, you COULD hold blindly. From here, you use your 2 initial hellions to spot 2-base all-ins, etc.... As for the upgrades, it doesn't really matter if you go for cloak or not. At the worst, it just delays double ups by a little bit. I generally see players like ForGG skipping cloak if they plan on staying on a low amount of banshees in favor of a faster midgame army transition. If you plan to make a TON of banshees like Mvp or MKP, you want cloak to extend their use as you'll be on hellion/banshee for a while. I would suggest looking at DeMuslim's build too (DeMuslim Build!). He generally goes for an attack with stimmed marines and hellions at ~10:00 followed up by a ton of MMM aggression to delay the zerg lategame. It's worth looking into, and I think it would be closer to the feel of opening marines. Hope I was able to help! | ||
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