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On August 21 2012 12:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Hello, I'm a masters Terran and I NEED HELP.
I am having the hardest time dealing with, wait for it, website terrans... My name is MassiveB.645 on ladder and I play at 1.1k masters but I get website anxiety everytime I go to discuss with fellow terrans on Teamliquid with regards to balance/compositions and even ingenuity. As a player who plays a multitude of tech styles that have worked to where I am, I am rather taken back as fellow Terran's decide to woe it out on forums and not by improving their own play.
Coming from BW I remember dealing with Protoss during the time everyone said how Protoss vs Zerg was completely broken (pre-bisu era) and that even KeSPA was looking to balance the game revolving that. I remember Jinro always being at the forefront saying the match up is balance and Protoss needs to find another style (Forge fast expand as it were to turn out, note his interview he coincidentally was quoted for that specific part) and though I never posted at that time (frankly because I never made an account, I was 13-14 or so at the time) I agreed that Protoss was not pushing the match to the limits. Bisu comes, balance fixed with no need from the outside.
I fear that our fellow website Terran's are falling into that trap, so please just help me by engaging in topics and discussions with a clear mind and stop polluting it with "my race is so weak, I can't do anything vs anyone anymore" because it not only puts a bad name on our race, we also can't prove we're the best even while fighting balance changes and diversified play.
So to engage a conversation, today I was practicing with a friend and lategame TvP I've noticed for a long time that the P always clumps its templars up (similar to how ghosts get clumped) when both armies move into an engagement so I tried out an idea and got 3 ravens lategame, upgraded HSM and launched 2 HSM's into the templars and dropped 2 PDD's to cover Vikings as they engaged the 4 colossi. 1 HSM hit first, dropping 4 templar and the 2nd one dropped the remaining 3 (with 2 strandeds lurking in the back) and with all of the AOE taken down my 3/3 mass rauder army (similar to Taeja's composition lategame) absolutely rolled the Protoss.
So, do you think that is a viable option (especially with cleaning the gas bank later in the game)
BW metagame progressed at a much slower rate than SC2; it's not even a valid comparison at all. People forget that the amount of tools and knowledge we picked up from BW made the metagame develop in SC2 much quicker.
And what Bisu did wasn't completely new either; Sair/DT/Reaver play was in use for quite sometime, it's just that no one had the level of control that Bisu did, nor did they have an economical timing attack to back it up. In SC2, the issue is that Terran late game has no potential at all unless you magically somehow get to BC/Ravens which is quite literally impossible to do, seeing as how the Z can flood you with a million 200 supply armies and run you down before you can max out.
So to engage a conversation, today I was practicing with a friend and lategame TvP I've noticed for a long time that the P always clumps its templars up (similar to how ghosts get clumped) when both armies move into an engagement so I tried out an idea and got 3 ravens lategame, upgraded HSM and launched 2 HSM's into the templars and dropped 2 PDD's to cover Vikings as they engaged the 4 colossi.
The difference between ghost vs. templar and raven vs. templar is that(in terms of range) snipe>feedback, but feedback>hsm. If you count the radius emp outranges feedback aswell. You should never be able to hsm templars unless he's not paying attention, and ghosts do the job equally well. PDDs can also be feedbacked, but that's not as important as the first point. Also, the extra microing of ravens doesn't really help the otherwise very micro-intensive dance of late-game TvP.
On August 21 2012 12:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Hello, I'm a masters Terran and I NEED HELP.
I am having the hardest time dealing with, wait for it, website terrans... My name is MassiveB.645 on ladder and I play at 1.1k masters but I get website anxiety everytime I go to discuss with fellow terrans on Teamliquid with regards to balance/compositions and even ingenuity. As a player who plays a multitude of tech styles that have worked to where I am, I am rather taken back as fellow Terran's decide to woe it out on forums and not by improving their own play.
Coming from BW I remember dealing with Protoss during the time everyone said how Protoss vs Zerg was completely broken (pre-bisu era) and that even KeSPA was looking to balance the game revolving that. I remember Jinro always being at the forefront saying the match up is balance and Protoss needs to find another style (Forge fast expand as it were to turn out, note his interview he coincidentally was quoted for that specific part) and though I never posted at that time (frankly because I never made an account, I was 13-14 or so at the time) I agreed that Protoss was not pushing the match to the limits. Bisu comes, balance fixed with no need from the outside.
I fear that our fellow website Terran's are falling into that trap, so please just help me by engaging in topics and discussions with a clear mind and stop polluting it with "my race is so weak, I can't do anything vs anyone anymore" because it not only puts a bad name on our race, we also can't prove we're the best even while fighting balance changes and diversified play.
So to engage a conversation, today I was practicing with a friend and lategame TvP I've noticed for a long time that the P always clumps its templars up (similar to how ghosts get clumped) when both armies move into an engagement so I tried out an idea and got 3 ravens lategame, upgraded HSM and launched 2 HSM's into the templars and dropped 2 PDD's to cover Vikings as they engaged the 4 colossi. 1 HSM hit first, dropping 4 templar and the 2nd one dropped the remaining 3 (with 2 strandeds lurking in the back) and with all of the AOE taken down my 3/3 mass rauder army (similar to Taeja's composition lategame) absolutely rolled the Protoss.
So, do you think that is a viable option (especially with cleaning the gas bank later in the game)
BW metagame progressed at a much slower rate than SC2; it's not even a valid comparison at all. People forget that the amount of tools and knowledge we picked up from BW made the metagame develop in SC2 much quicker.
And what Bisu did wasn't completely new either; Sair/DT/Reaver play was in use for quite sometime, it's just that no one had the level of control that Bisu did, nor did they have an economical timing attack to back it up. In SC2, the issue is that Terran late game has no potential at all unless you magically somehow get to BC/Ravens which is quite literally impossible to do, seeing as how the Z can flood you with a million 200 supply armies and run you down before you can max out.
Firstly since it is rather apparent you were not around at the time or have a very vague since of what's actually going on I was referring to the forge fast expand. Secondly it is completely comparable because the game went through the exact same phases... What you think BW players and BW pros weren't playing as much or as hard as we are 2005 + ? Hell I remember when they were thinking of nerfing Terran until Savior revolutionized Zerg in BW (late I might add, around 07 if I recall). You somehow think that because SC2 is newer the game progresses faster?
Absolutely not, what is actually happening is we have a pot filled with water and we're dumping and filling trying to hit the center without letting the water rest in place to see where we're at. Terran has no answer lategame? Tell me a single composition lategame TvZ that Terran can't handle, and tell me how the Queen buff (which is the big issue apparently) or overlord buff even effect the lategame other than the journey getting there? Lategame T vs Lategame Z is exactly the same as pre-patch and can be defended exactly the same.
When you go to rebut my post, try to put either A) research into ir or B) effort... That being said you should do both.
"Terran late game has no potential at all unless you magically somehow get to BC/Ravens which is quite literally impossible to do, seeing as how the Z can flood you with a million 200 supply armies and run you down before you can max out."
Decided to take a specific line to emphasize horrible mentality and why you're probably a bad player and it's frustrating how you come on here and voice it like it's fact.
"has no potential at all unless you magically somehow get to BC/Ravens" As shown in IEM in MULTIPLE games such as Kas vs Nestea or almost every lategame TvZ from MVP Ravens are not hard to get too, especially with the giant gas bank Terrans have so we can throw that ridiculous statement out the door.
"impossible to do" interesting concept, proven wrong multiple occasions in the last event held.
"Z can flood you with a million 200 supply armies" A million you say? I don't recall Vortix maxing out to a million resupply armies against MVP? Never have I seen a Zerg have the ability to remax more than twice consecutively in a short period of time (first army, second army) and DO YOU possibly wonder why that mechanic is there? Terran trades much more efficiently... The only way you can not trade effectively with Zerg is if you either took a big disadvantage early and he just has a higher tech tree than you should have or you were out of position. Note, both are your fault and not a balance discussion.
Time to stop blaming the game for being a bronzie and start improving.
EDIT: regarding Ravens vs Templars. I completely agree that Feedback>ravens and for obvious reasons it would be extremely hard for you to get close, but would it?
Firstly having these ravens in your army do 3 major things.
A) They prevent any observers from trailing your army and giving free intel B) They produce PDD's so colossus tech is completely negated due to complete air superiority (and you don't have to get within feedback range) C) They clump up under vikings, if you can keep all of your air together into a big ball the templars will have a bitch of a time feedbacking a single raven (out of the 2) while storming/concaving/splitting/ff's/dodging emps etc... You will task him to the absolute limit while you simply click move and then allocate your time elsewhere.
Also raven with ghosts supporting will negate the feedback issue because of EMP etc, and then perhaps you could place that HSM into a ball of Zealots (which does considerable dmg) or again into the templars which will all melt insantly to it.
I'm facing a lot of problems against TvP in late game. I'm not saying imba or anything but as I'm fed up to always go late game (I love how taeja and mvp are dealing with late game but for obvious reasons I can't do the same) so I would like to know which all in are the best against Protoss, for example the best "111" version at the moment.
Also in TvZ, what is the best way to wall/protect your 3rd base on map such as ohana (very wide open).
On August 21 2012 18:20 taCdraobyeK wrote: Hey guys,
I'm facing a lot of problems against TvP in late game. I'm not saying imba or anything but as I'm fed up to always go late game (I love how taeja and mvp are dealing with late game but for obvious reasons I can't do the same) so I would like to know which all in are the best against Protoss, for example the best "111" version at the moment.
Also in TvZ, what is the best way to wall/protect your 3rd base on map such as ohana (very wide open).
Thanks.
wallin ur nat, build supply depots as wall on 3rd and break down rocks ofc... build rax and shit as walls... spread siege tanks.
How do you prioritize Starport units procuction-wise? Start with a medvac or a viking, produce one of each at a time until 6 medvacs are reached or...? Assuming marine-tank or bio play.
On August 21 2012 18:20 taCdraobyeK wrote: Hey guys,
I'm facing a lot of problems against TvP in late game. I'm not saying imba or anything but as I'm fed up to always go late game (I love how taeja and mvp are dealing with late game but for obvious reasons I can't do the same) so I would like to know which all in are the best against Protoss, for example the best "111" version at the moment.
Also in TvZ, what is the best way to wall/protect your 3rd base on map such as ohana (very wide open).
Thanks.
wallin ur nat, build supply depots as wall on 3rd and break down rocks ofc... build rax and shit as walls... spread siege tanks.
... Build siege tanks in TvP? No no no, don't listen to this advice, siege tanks have a VERY specific purpose in TvP and shouldn't be general advice to get better... Awful awful advice.
So I wouldn't advise allining Protoss because that really will only get you so far, when engaging the lategame make sure you have a few things solidified, at least 20 barracks mainly all tech labs (marines lategame are nearly useless against the mass AOE) about 6-10 ghosts (EMP/snipe) and approximately 8-10 medvacs (no more than ten! they become less and less useful when compared to how useful more marauders are. Make sure go have proper viking count (9 vikings generally the number you want with +1 or +2 attack vs the average 3 colo play)
When you engage, try to emp all the templars beforehand, snipe the observer with vikings etc, cloak run in and boom. Full engagements with Protoss can be extremely difficult, you'll want to widdle them down so attempt engagements away from your base as your remax takes longer,
On August 21 2012 19:28 Daswollvieh wrote: How do you prioritize Starport units procuction-wise? Start with a medivac or a viking, produce one of each at a time until 6 medvacs are reached or...? Assuming marine-tank or bio play.
Depends on the matchup, but the general idea is to make medivacs in priority, and make vikings only when you need them.
TvZ, you usually want to make only medivacs (one vikings early for overlords if you want to), and then start pumping vikings when you need to counter broodlords by building additional starports. TvP, is the same idea with Colossi instead of BL. In these two matchups I dont think you can really set a minimum number of medivacs before switching to vikings since when you have to make vikings it's usually a "do or die" situation.
TvT is a bit different since your goal is to produce enough vikings to gain and keep air control while squeezing in medivacs, so you need to balance your production reactively all game long. I like to make an early viking (before the reactor) to be safe against banshees and drops early. Then a few medivacs (mostly for drops/elevator) after the reactor, before switching to full viking production until I can assure air dominance, and then switch to medivac production while keeping a healthy viking count. Adding a starport once you're on 3+ bases can help. (Note that I play only marine/tank in TvT, so i'm not sure if it's exactly the same for bio.)
On August 21 2012 18:20 taCdraobyeK wrote: Hey guys,
I'm facing a lot of problems against TvP in late game. I'm not saying imba or anything but as I'm fed up to always go late game (I love how taeja and mvp are dealing with late game but for obvious reasons I can't do the same) so I would like to know which all in are the best against Protoss, for example the best "111" version at the moment.
Also in TvZ, what is the best way to wall/protect your 3rd base on map such as ohana (very wide open).
Thanks.
wallin ur nat, build supply depots as wall on 3rd and break down rocks ofc... build rax and shit as walls... spread siege tanks.
... Build siege tanks in TvP? No no no, don't listen to this advice, siege tanks have a VERY specific purpose in TvP and shouldn't be general advice to get better... Awful awful advice.
I think this was related to the TvZ wallin part of the question.
On August 21 2012 19:28 Daswollvieh wrote: How do you prioritize Starport units procuction-wise? Start with a medvac or a viking, produce one of each at a time until 6 medvacs are reached or...? Assuming marine-tank or bio play.
Depends on the matchup. Generally you're going to be producing only medivacs or only vikings at a time, though, not really mixed. In most cases, terrans will start off with a lot of medivacs because they need as much healing/dropping potential to support their MMM or marine/tank force as possible, producing vikings later only when they need it (e.g. against colossus, brood lords, enemy vikings). In reality, it's just common sense of "what do I need RIGHT NOW".
On August 21 2012 18:20 taCdraobyeK wrote: Hey guys,
I'm facing a lot of problems against TvP in late game. I'm not saying imba or anything but as I'm fed up to always go late game (I love how taeja and mvp are dealing with late game but for obvious reasons I can't do the same) so I would like to know which all in are the best against Protoss, for example the best "111" version at the moment.
Also in TvZ, what is the best way to wall/protect your 3rd base on map such as ohana (very wide open).
Thanks.
wallin ur nat, build supply depots as wall on 3rd and break down rocks ofc... build rax and shit as walls... spread siege tanks.
... Build siege tanks in TvP? No no no, don't listen to this advice, siege tanks have a VERY specific purpose in TvP and shouldn't be general advice to get better... Awful awful advice.
So I wouldn't advise allining Protoss because that really will only get you so far, when engaging the lategame make sure you have a few things solidified, at least 20 barracks mainly all tech labs (marines lategame are nearly useless against the mass AOE) about 6-10 ghosts (EMP/snipe) and approximately 8-10 medvacs (no more than ten! they become less and less useful when compared to how useful more marauders are. Make sure go have proper viking count (9 vikings generally the number you want with +1 or +2 attack vs the average 3 colo play)
When you engage, try to emp all the templars beforehand, snipe the observer with vikings etc, cloak run in and boom. Full engagements with Protoss can be extremely difficult, you'll want to widdle them down so attempt engagements away from your base as your remax takes longer,
Goodluck
I'm fairly certain he was talking about tanks in TvZ, answering the last question about how to protect your 3rd. Also, to answer that a little better, generally the best way is to walloff the natural and rally to the ramp between your natural and 3rd. You want to make a bunker protected by supply depots to wall off the area to the right of your CC while spreading your tanks well. This should create a fairly small choke for zerglings to get through, and you will always have reinforcements in that area, so you should feel well-protected for the most part.
I agree with the advice on TvP. Don't give up on the lategame, don't resort to all-inning. If your goal is to improve, you should be practicing macro builds ALWAYS, only all-inning to relieve some stress. If you want, I can give you a very in-depth guide for how to beat the protoss army; if you practice it, you will walk over lategame protoss armies laughing. The advice given by Nemesis on this particular point is, in my opinion, bad for various reasons.
I remember a guide here about TvZ were terran takes the zergs third as his nat and then builds his base outside of zergs base to contain him. Anyone knows the guide? I'm like 90% sure it's here on TL but I can't remember the name.
On August 22 2012 02:29 Necosarius wrote: I remember a guide here about TvZ were terran takes the zergs third as his nat and then builds his base outside of zergs base to contain him. Anyone knows the guide? I'm like 90% sure it's here on TL but I can't remember the name.
On August 22 2012 03:47 zhurai wrote: EDIT: blazing answered before me . _ .
I actually spend most of my day lurking in the THT and waiting for zhurai to get ready to answer a post, just so that this happens.
So, in what's a fairly unusually occurance for me, *I* have a question for you guys. Does anyone know of a build order, replay or VoD for a Marauder/Hellion attack in TvP? Stim, Blue Flame, Red Flame, 1 base, 2 base, whatever. I've been tossing around some various all-in ideas in my head and this one struck me.
On August 22 2012 03:47 zhurai wrote: EDIT: blazing answered before me . _ .
I actually spend most of my day lurking in the THT and waiting for zhurai to get ready to answer a post, just so that this happens.
So, in what's a fairly unusually occurance for me, *I* have a question for you guys. Does anyone know of a build order, replay or VoD for a Marauder/Hellion attack in TvP? Stim, Blue Flame, Red Flame, 1 base, 2 base, whatever. I've been tossing around some various all-in ideas in my head and this one struck me.
This is a nice 1 base all in from Taeja. With micro it beats pretty much every build that doesn't have a robo before expo.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269942.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-269944.jpg)
I'm like 90% sure it's here on TL but I can't remember the name.
