EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 338
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Willzzz
United Kingdom774 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also. But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded? Do you guys understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor? | ||
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LittleAlien
United States34 Posts
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Wardi
England898 Posts
On August 19 2012 22:27 Sianos wrote: Hey i have a question regarding TvZ reactor hellion opening. I know there are different variants like 1 gas before 2nd CC and the 2nd after or both gas after 16 CC, but they all only have 1 marine until the hellions pop out and i think that just 6 lings can do a good amount of damage to your expand. Does anyone have a replay where they are doing the 16 CC into reactor hellion and defend aggainst those early 6 lings? I allways want to include an early bunker but i don´t see a pro do it. With gas before second CC Reactor Hellion (which isn't common now) you will be able to get 2 marines out before Hellions (unless you gas first) and the Hellions will pop in time to deal with 6 lings. With double gas after second CC (more common now) you should be able to go up to 3 marines if being greedy with the gas if not 4 (depending on if you start a second marine before your gas or not). This should all be easily able to deal with 6 lings. On August 19 2012 23:38 dynwar7 wrote: Hi guys. I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also. But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded? Do you guys understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor? Hellion Banshee openers are very common right now because it is a safe opening and also allows you to put pressure on while controlling the map and the creep spread. The Hellion Banshee into 3 CC build is very common and can transition into Marine Tank or into Mech. Having the Hellions in your Bio army as well will just buffer your army a fair bit if you are able to keep the Hellions alive. | ||
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Laughing
United States44 Posts
On August 20 2012 00:46 LittleAlien wrote: Hey guys, How can I utilize Ravens in all types of match-ups? TvZ, you can put down the 2 starports with techlabs like MVP at the mid-late game. TvP, I don't see much use since I'd rather use that gas for mass ghost. If you're really adamant to use them in TvP I see value and making a raven in the 12 min mark for a PDD in an engagement. TvT, it's mostly used for openers to protect mech against MMM or as a way to deal with cloaked banshees. | ||
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NewDawn
Canada120 Posts
On August 19 2012 19:41 Wardi wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 19 2012 11:32 NewDawn wrote: In TvT, how do I stop a 1/1/1 late Expo when I do 1Rax FE with a bio-centric mid-game transition. As soon as I scanned at 6:20~ I saw the 1/1/1 and immediately got a Tech on my Factory and tried to get tanks, and skipped medivacs for vikings. I feel that the 1/1/1 completely wrecks me when I 1Rax FE. What should I do? A replay might help to identify exactly what unit composition your opponent went for and how early his push was. There are multiple types including very early 6.30 siege pushes as well as later pushes after getting cloak banshees. The first thing I can say is be prepared. The less damage you take the more economy you have to hold this off - so get them turrets up to defend the cloak banshees and you will be in a great position. Remember to save scans for when you engage his army, so you don't get destroyed by the two banshees that are cloaked and you cannot kill. Be aware of your macro as well - do not let it slip while dealing with his harassment otherwise you are going to be in a lot of trouble. Always make sure to get Combat Shields first - this extra health on your marines allows for a much better defence of builds such as this as they can tank extra shots from tanks, banshees and make your own marines so much better than his own. Be patient and buy yourself time - if possible be active on the map with your marines and attempt to force him to siege before he gets to your base. When he does siege up assess how bad the situation is - do you really need to engage him right now? The longer you wait the better it gets for you as more upgrades and units start to become available from your economy. When you think you have enough engage from as many sides as possible - the high ground of your main, drop units round the back and from your natural (usually once stim has finished). This works well for the later pushes involving Banshees. Don't be afraid to pull workers as well - remember you have the economy advantage here and the extra orbital to reproduce SCVs and that extra buffering could help make the difference. For earlier pushes with very early tanks and fewer marines I feel it is better to pull SCVs and engage ASAP. Because he has committed to tanks so early (skipped banshees) it means he is at his weakest when he only has 1-2 tanks and if you wait for stim there are just going to be way too many tanks to deal with. These are a few tips, again if you can post the replay I can give you a bit better specific advice for the type of 1/1/1 you faced. Okay~ I just watched over the replay and I will admit that I messed up a lot. I accidentally made an extra SCV before OC, got supply blocked at 38/38 and 54/54, and didn't scout at all. I think I was flustered from my matches before. I was playing sloppy, but generally, this Banshee/Marine/Tank 1/1/1 screws me over a lot regardless >< | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 20 2012 02:18 Laughing wrote: TvZ, you can put down the 2 starports with techlabs like MVP at the mid-late game. TvP, I don't see much use since I'd rather use that gas for mass ghost. If you're really adamant to use them in TvP I see value and making a raven in the 12 min mark for a PDD in an engagement. TvT, it's mostly used for openers to protect mech against MMM or as a way to deal with cloaked banshees. Single raven is incredibly useful lategame vs p for sniping obs to allow your ghosts to do more. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On August 19 2012 23:38 dynwar7 wrote: Hi guys. I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also. But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded? Do you guys understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor? Still need help with this. Wardi answered but it seems he did not read my question :/ | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:24 dynwar7 wrote: Still need help with this. Wardi answered but it seems he did not read my question :/ Yes, it's very common. Many players have been going really crazy on the banshee/hellion harass, but most of the time players will not build more than ~10 hellions/2 banshees before switching back into normal play. In fact, some players still only open with ~6 hellions before immediately transitioning out, just using the hellions for the sole purpose of sniping creep tumors. The reason why this kind of midgame is so popular right now is because it transitions really easily into either mech or bio. You can easily swap the rax and factory and start marine/tank while putting down 2 ebays and working toward a push with +2/+2 at 14:00 or you can keep producing hellions, add on 2 techlab factories and start thor/tank production. In many of these hellion/banshee openings, terran will get an extremely fast 3rd CC as well and expand behind the hellion/banshee harass. This allows you to continue banshee production while transitioning into mech if you want or just be able to add on like 5 rax and go super aggro. Hope this helps! | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On August 20 2012 11:24 dynwar7 wrote: Still need help with this. Wardi answered but it seems he did not read my question :/ Personally when I play bio tvz I use the same opening I do for mech tvz, and make 4-5 banshee and cut hellions only by that point (and switch fact to techlab and port to reactor). Then I can choose whether I need siege or fagflame first; and can get a thor if my marine count isn't sufficient for muta if I suspect it. | ||
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SurroundSound
106 Posts
It owned me because i rushed to 1/1/1 myself and had nothing to defend? Is that just good play on his part? | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
"sooner or later the drones will have +1 armor, making hellions/banshees ineffective because they dont have upgrades" (assuming i go bio). I think it makes sense because hellions 3 shot drones right? then when the drones have armor upgrades, it is going to take more shots, making them less effective? | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:39 SurroundSound wrote: TvT: How do you tell a cloak banshee build apart from a 1/1/1 marine hellion medivac? I see marines and hellions and double gas and think cloakshees but it is just a hard and early marine hellion push with medivacs. It owned me because i rushed to 1/1/1 myself and had nothing to defend? Is that just good play on his part? If you see more than 2 hellions it's probably not banshee, because he'd wanna use the fact to make a tl(most of the time). I don't know what version of 1/1/1 you use, but if you make a hellion you'll have a pretty good view of what's going on. Spreading depots so you can spot him coming early is also a good idea, but don't put them right at the ledge because then they get sniped by banshees. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 20 2012 13:39 SurroundSound wrote: TvT: How do you tell a cloak banshee build apart from a 1/1/1 marine hellion medivac? I see marines and hellions and double gas and think cloakshees but it is just a hard and early marine hellion push with medivacs. It owned me because i rushed to 1/1/1 myself and had nothing to defend? Is that just good play on his part? Click on his gases to see how much they've been mined. Cloak Banshee gets second gas around 20 supply, somewhere around 3'30 or a bit earlier, so there should be slightly more than 300 gas mined if you click on it when using your third 50 energy on OC. If he got his gas later it means he will tech Tanks or Cloak Banshees after his elevator. On August 20 2012 15:34 dynwar7 wrote: Thank you guys, but is my reasoning correct? "sooner or later the drones will have +1 armor, making hellions/banshees ineffective because they dont have upgrades" (assuming i go bio). I think it makes sense because hellions 3 shot drones right? then when the drones have armor upgrades, it is going to take more shots, making them less effective? There's some of it, but anyway unless meching you don't want to stick with Hellions/Banshees for too long, you have to dump your resources into your midgame upgrades and Marine/Tanks army. | ||
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
Are there any tips on how to quickly load units into medivacs? I usually just box everything and shift click on all my medivacs. This works ok when I am in base, but when I want to do a hot pickup this fails miserably. Medivacs, which normally move toward units they intend to pick up just stay in place, becaue they are healing. The units themselves don't move toward medivacs, because they are surrounded by zerglings. Even worse if I do that, they stop shooting and instead try moving toward the medivac, that is out of their range. I can than click the medivacs, and move over units that want to get in, but with my low APM the causualities during that process are immerse. TL;DR; - how to make hot medivac pickups efficently? | ||
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Bwall
Sweden145 Posts
On August 20 2012 17:38 crow_mw wrote: Hi, Are there any tips on how to quickly load units into medivacs? I usually just box everything and shift click on all my medivacs. This works ok when I am in base, but when I want to do a hot pickup this fails miserably. Medivacs, which normally move toward units they intend to pick up just stay in place, becaue they are healing. The units themselves don't move toward medivacs, because they are surrounded by zerglings. Even worse if I do that, they stop shooting and instead try moving toward the medivac, that is out of their range. I can than click the medivacs, and move over units that want to get in, but with my low APM the causualities during that process are immerse. TL;DR; - how to make hot medivac pickups efficently? If you're surrounded/about to be surrounded you have to use a move command to make the medivac(s) fly to your units. | ||
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Wardi
England898 Posts
On August 20 2012 15:34 dynwar7 wrote: Thank you guys, but is my reasoning correct? "sooner or later the drones will have +1 armor, making hellions/banshees ineffective because they dont have upgrades" (assuming i go bio). I think it makes sense because hellions 3 shot drones right? then when the drones have armor upgrades, it is going to take more shots, making them less effective? Once he gets his defences up the harassment becomes less viable and so it isn't worth investing into more units for which he already has the defences up. On August 20 2012 13:39 SurroundSound wrote: TvT: How do you tell a cloak banshee build apart from a 1/1/1 marine hellion medivac? I see marines and hellions and double gas and think cloakshees but it is just a hard and early marine hellion push with medivacs. It owned me because i rushed to 1/1/1 myself and had nothing to defend? Is that just good play on his part? Essentially it is just knowing what your opponent is going to be making for which build. If you see Marines and Hellions then you can assume no Banshee because he hasn't used the Factory or Barracks to make a Tech Lab. The Double Gas can be for a Cloakshee follow up. Alternatively if you scan and see fewer units you can probably assume he has invested into the Cloakshees. Seeing the add-ons on buildings also helps of course, so try to throw the scan in a position to see as much of the base as possible. At the 5 minute mark he will be preparing for the push and so you will see exactly what he is producing from and be able to predict the composition and push. Once you hold his aggression you should of course prepare for round two where he may have added on tanks/banshees etc to continue the one base play. | ||
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Rossen
Denmark177 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 20 2012 18:41 Rossen wrote: Hey, I've looked through roughly 50pages now and I havent been able to find an up-to-date awnser yet so... What is the best standard opener against protoss on medium/large maps ? I've been trying 14CC like MVP did at IEM vs Nerchio in tvz, but I feel like I just die to the protoss first zelot/stalker. (I'm high master ,,, and yet I dont have my builds down, it's sad I know.) :D Hope some of you might have some idea's! 1 rax FE, possibly with triple OC, or CC first. Just wall with your 2 Barracks so you don't get annoyed by early pressure. | ||
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Wardi
England898 Posts
On August 20 2012 18:41 Rossen wrote: Hey, I've looked through roughly 50pages now and I havent been able to find an up-to-date awnser yet so... What is the best standard opener against protoss on medium/large maps ? I've been trying 14CC like MVP did at IEM vs Nerchio in tvz, but I feel like I just die to the protoss first zelot/stalker. (I'm high master ,,, and yet I dont have my builds down, it's sad I know.) :D Hope some of you might have some idea's! Try looking into the Bomber build from IEM. It's a 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax with specific gas timings which allows him to add extra Rax at the 8.30 mark and be extremely aggressive with a large Bio count in the mid game. This idea of 1 Rax FE into mid game pressure is the most common kind of build although there are different ways of doing it. 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax and then double gas immediately is very common too, taking one Tech Lab and two Reactors, adding a Factory and Engineering Bay and pushing with +1, Stim and Medivacs with CS on the way. If you look through the IEM Replays (here http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201724) of TvPs you're going to find a lot of builds like this with similar incentives. If you go CC first and the guy sends a very early Zealot (chronoed) you will have to pull SCVs, and it's a way for Protoss to catch up after you opened greedy. Just make sure to start building a bunker once the Rax come up. You need to make sure to throw down 2 Rax ASAP after the CC as well (iirc one on 15 and one on 17 supply). | ||
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