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On August 20 2012 18:41 Rossen wrote: Hey, I've looked through roughly 50pages now and I havent been able to find an up-to-date awnser yet so... What is the best standard opener against protoss on medium/large maps ? I've been trying 14CC like MVP did at IEM vs Nerchio in tvz, but I feel like I just die to the protoss first zelot/stalker. (I'm high master ,,, and yet I dont have my builds down, it's sad I know.) :D Hope some of you might have some idea's!
Try looking into the Bomber build from IEM. It's a 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax with specific gas timings which allows him to add extra Rax at the 8.30 mark and be extremely aggressive with a large Bio count in the mid game. This idea of 1 Rax FE into mid game pressure is the most common kind of build although there are different ways of doing it.
1 Rax FE into 3 Rax and then double gas immediately is very common too, taking one Tech Lab and two Reactors, adding a Factory and Engineering Bay and pushing with +1, Stim and Medivacs with CS on the way. If you look through the IEM Replays (here http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201724) of TvPs you're going to find a lot of builds like this with similar incentives.
If you go CC first and the guy sends a very early Zealot (chronoed) you will have to pull SCVs, and it's a way for Protoss to catch up after you opened greedy. Just make sure to start building a bunker once the Rax come up. You need to make sure to throw down 2 Rax ASAP after the CC as well (iirc one on 15 and one on 17 supply).
Why unnecessary SCV losses? Just retreat behind your wall. CC first completes at 4'00, Zealot cannot deny the building SCV on most maps.
On August 20 2012 18:41 Rossen wrote: Hey, I've looked through roughly 50pages now and I havent been able to find an up-to-date awnser yet so... What is the best standard opener against protoss on medium/large maps ? I've been trying 14CC like MVP did at IEM vs Nerchio in tvz, but I feel like I just die to the protoss first zelot/stalker. (I'm high master ,,, and yet I dont have my builds down, it's sad I know.) :D Hope some of you might have some idea's!
Try looking into the Bomber build from IEM. It's a 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax with specific gas timings which allows him to add extra Rax at the 8.30 mark and be extremely aggressive with a large Bio count in the mid game. This idea of 1 Rax FE into mid game pressure is the most common kind of build although there are different ways of doing it.
1 Rax FE into 3 Rax and then double gas immediately is very common too, taking one Tech Lab and two Reactors, adding a Factory and Engineering Bay and pushing with +1, Stim and Medivacs with CS on the way. If you look through the IEM Replays (here http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201724) of TvPs you're going to find a lot of builds like this with similar incentives.
If you go CC first and the guy sends a very early Zealot (chronoed) you will have to pull SCVs, and it's a way for Protoss to catch up after you opened greedy. Just make sure to start building a bunker once the Rax come up. You need to make sure to throw down 2 Rax ASAP after the CC as well (iirc one on 15 and one on 17 supply).
Why unnecessary SCV losses? Just retreat behind your wall. CC first completes at 4'00, Zealot cannot deny the building SCV on most maps.
You can't wall off completely though (if you build on the low ground) and the Zealot can still come in and maybe catch an SCV mining or so. I'm not completely confident with CC first builds so I don't know the exact timings, so obviously if the CC is finished building you just let it hit on the CC a bit and then micro with marines as they pop out. I just remember MC vs MKP? MC doing some funky stuff against MKPs CC first which gave MC a pretty nice lead in the early game.
So sorry if I was a bit wrong, I hope the rest of my post was useful
On August 20 2012 18:41 Rossen wrote: Hey, I've looked through roughly 50pages now and I havent been able to find an up-to-date awnser yet so... What is the best standard opener against protoss on medium/large maps ? I've been trying 14CC like MVP did at IEM vs Nerchio in tvz, but I feel like I just die to the protoss first zelot/stalker. (I'm high master ,,, and yet I dont have my builds down, it's sad I know.) :D Hope some of you might have some idea's!
Try looking into the Bomber build from IEM. It's a 1 Rax FE into 3 Rax with specific gas timings which allows him to add extra Rax at the 8.30 mark and be extremely aggressive with a large Bio count in the mid game. This idea of 1 Rax FE into mid game pressure is the most common kind of build although there are different ways of doing it.
1 Rax FE into 3 Rax and then double gas immediately is very common too, taking one Tech Lab and two Reactors, adding a Factory and Engineering Bay and pushing with +1, Stim and Medivacs with CS on the way. If you look through the IEM Replays (here http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season7/cologne/news/201724) of TvPs you're going to find a lot of builds like this with similar incentives.
If you go CC first and the guy sends a very early Zealot (chronoed) you will have to pull SCVs, and it's a way for Protoss to catch up after you opened greedy. Just make sure to start building a bunker once the Rax come up. You need to make sure to throw down 2 Rax ASAP after the CC as well (iirc one on 15 and one on 17 supply).
Why unnecessary SCV losses? Just retreat behind your wall. CC first completes at 4'00, Zealot cannot deny the building SCV on most maps.
You can't wall off completely though (if you build on the low ground) and the Zealot can still come in and maybe catch an SCV mining or so. I'm not completely confident with CC first builds so I don't know the exact timings, so obviously if the CC is finished building you just let it hit on the CC a bit and then micro with marines as they pop out. I just remember MC vs MKP? MC doing some funky stuff against MKPs CC first which gave MC a pretty nice lead in the early game.
So sorry if I was a bit wrong, I hope the rest of my post was useful
It was.
You can wall off with Depots + 2 Barracks (15/17), then retreat your SCV in main and even rally SCV production in main until you have 3 Marines (by the 4'45 mark) to chase his Zealot. If he commits (second Zealot + Stalker or two Stalkers) I think it's better to wait Marines 4 & 5 to go down unless you're confident in your SCV micro. That being said, it's usually better for the Protoss to skip units and build an earlier Nexus, but some enjoy being agressive so...
Are there any tips on how to quickly load units into medivacs? I usually just box everything and shift click on all my medivacs. This works ok when I am in base, but when I want to do a hot pickup this fails miserably. Medivacs, which normally move toward units they intend to pick up just stay in place, becaue they are healing. The units themselves don't move toward medivacs, because they are surrounded by zerglings. Even worse if I do that, they stop shooting and instead try moving toward the medivac, that is out of their range. I can than click the medivacs, and move over units that want to get in, but with my low APM the causualities during that process are immerse.
TL;DR; - how to make hot medivac pickups efficently?
If you're surrounded/about to be surrounded you have to use a move command to make the medivac(s) fly to your units.
I assume that shift+click moving to all your units isn't the most efficient way. Does that mean you move your medivac over your units and than box them and right click on medi ?
Hello fellow Terrans, I've compiled all of Mvp's replay from IEM, from Open Brackets all the way to the Grand Finals. If any of you are interested, the replay pack can be found here.
If a cannon rush is scouted late, what is the proper response? Say I were to 1rax FE and the first cannon is already halfway done and P starts throwing down pylons and cannons all over the place. Is the game already lost by then?
On August 20 2012 23:07 bellsNkeys wrote: If a cannon rush is scouted late, what is the proper response? Say I were to 1rax FE and the first cannon is already halfway done and P starts throwing down pylons and cannons all over the place. Is the game already lost by then?
I wouldn't think so. It depends where the cannon is. Basically as Terran you have a bit of an advantage vs Cannon rushes, as you can fly away.
If the Cannon is on the low ground you want to wall off and deny high ground vision while getting a bunker in place to take down the Cannon. If the Cannon is on the high ground and you cant take it down with SCVs then you want to lift you CC and Rax and set up camp at your natural. If the guy continues to Cannon rush you just think that he is investing a load to do it.
So no, the game is not lost if the cannon rush is unscouted
On August 20 2012 23:01 `dunedain wrote: Hello fellow Terrans, I've compiled all of Mvp's replay from IEM, from Open Brackets all the way to the Grand Finals. If any of you are interested, the replay pack can be found here.
On August 20 2012 23:01 `dunedain wrote: Hello fellow Terrans, I've compiled all of Mvp's replay from IEM, from Open Brackets all the way to the Grand Finals. If any of you are interested, the replay pack can be found here.
All caster units (infestor, HT, I put on a different hotkey and in the main army -> 4 casters, 5 main force for me.
Been starting to do some 1v1's again and I wonder what's the best way (or how do you guys) control ghosts. I find it highly annoying that if you put them in the main army they show on top (need a tab for stim). So I can either:
- Ghost both hotkey'd to their own group + army group -> requires tab to stim - Ghost only in their own control group -> requires me to move both groups around all the time (this is no problem with marine tank where I don't put tanks with the main army, but it just requires a siege command, not aimed EMP's while my main army isn't getting any commands, and I never go tanks vs protoss), and on the occasion I have vikings well it becomes total chaos (own control group only) and can't land any EMP.
On August 21 2012 07:45 Nisyax wrote: My question: Ghost Control..? (vs. High Templar)
All caster units (infestor, HT, I put on a different hotkey and in the main army -> 4 casters, 5 main force for me.
Been starting to do some 1v1's again and I wonder what's the best way (or how do you guys) control ghosts. I find it highly annoying that if you put them in the main army they show on top (need a tab for stim). So I can either:
- Ghost both hotkey'd to their own group + army group -> requires tab to stim - Ghost only in their own control group -> requires me to move both groups around all the time (this is no problem with marine tank where I don't put tanks with the main army, but it just requires a siege command, not aimed EMP's while my main army isn't getting any commands, and I never go tanks vs protoss), and on the occasion I have vikings well it becomes total chaos (own control group only) and can't land any EMP.
Which method do you use / would advice me?
I put my ghosts in their own control group and then put them on follow to one of my marauders when I'm not using them.
I am looking for a proxy factory build, where you go gas before rax, then proxy the rax and factory, build reactor with the rax and just mass hellions, it is a cheese usually seen in TvT, I have seen it a long time ago, maybe a game between MKP and MVP, I could be wrong, any suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!
I am having the hardest time dealing with, wait for it, website terrans... My name is MassiveB.645 on ladder and I play at 1.1k masters but I get website anxiety everytime I go to discuss with fellow terrans on Teamliquid with regards to balance/compositions and even ingenuity. As a player who plays a multitude of tech styles that have worked to where I am, I am rather taken back as fellow Terran's decide to woe it out on forums and not by improving their own play.
Coming from BW I remember dealing with Protoss during the time everyone said how Protoss vs Zerg was completely broken (pre-bisu era) and that even KeSPA was looking to balance the game revolving that. I remember Jinro always being at the forefront saying the match up is balance and Protoss needs to find another style (Forge fast expand as it were to turn out, note his interview he coincidentally was quoted for that specific part) and though I never posted at that time (frankly because I never made an account, I was 13-14 or so at the time) I agreed that Protoss was not pushing the match to the limits. Bisu comes, balance fixed with no need from the outside.
I fear that our fellow website Terran's are falling into that trap, so please just help me by engaging in topics and discussions with a clear mind and stop polluting it with "my race is so weak, I can't do anything vs anyone anymore" because it not only puts a bad name on our race, we also can't prove we're the best even while fighting balance changes and diversified play.
So to engage a conversation, today I was practicing with a friend and lategame TvP I've noticed for a long time that the P always clumps its templars up (similar to how ghosts get clumped) when both armies move into an engagement so I tried out an idea and got 3 ravens lategame, upgraded HSM and launched 2 HSM's into the templars and dropped 2 PDD's to cover Vikings as they engaged the 4 colossi. 1 HSM hit first, dropping 4 templar and the 2nd one dropped the remaining 3 (with 2 strandeds lurking in the back) and with all of the AOE taken down my 3/3 mass rauder army (similar to Taeja's composition lategame) absolutely rolled the Protoss.
So, do you think that is a viable option (especially with cleaning the gas bank later in the game)
On August 21 2012 07:45 Nisyax wrote: My question: Ghost Control..? (vs. High Templar)
All caster units (infestor, HT, I put on a different hotkey and in the main army -> 4 casters, 5 main force for me.
Been starting to do some 1v1's again and I wonder what's the best way (or how do you guys) control ghosts. I find it highly annoying that if you put them in the main army they show on top (need a tab for stim). So I can either:
- Ghost both hotkey'd to their own group + army group -> requires tab to stim - Ghost only in their own control group -> requires me to move both groups around all the time (this is no problem with marine tank where I don't put tanks with the main army, but it just requires a siege command, not aimed EMP's while my main army isn't getting any commands, and I never go tanks vs protoss), and on the occasion I have vikings well it becomes total chaos (own control group only) and can't land any EMP.
Which method do you use / would advice me?
I put my main MMM force on 1, my vikings on 2, and my ghosts on 3. It gets a little chaotic, but just make sure you're controlling one group poking in and out (vikings or ghosts) while moving the other 2 groups together. If you're only focusing on microing one group, it'll feel a little more stable.
On August 21 2012 12:34 ceoftheyear wrote: Hi everyone,
I am looking for a proxy factory build, where you go gas before rax, then proxy the rax and factory, build reactor with the rax and just mass hellions, it is a cheese usually seen in TvT, I have seen it a long time ago, maybe a game between MKP and MVP, I could be wrong, any suggestion would be greatly appreciated!!
Watch these games...ForGG does a lot of crazy 1-gas openings with proxy rax, etc. You get the idea from watching.
On August 21 2012 12:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Hello, I'm a masters Terran and I NEED HELP.
I am having the hardest time dealing with, wait for it, website terrans... My name is MassiveB.645 on ladder and I play at 1.1k masters but I get website anxiety everytime I go to discuss with fellow terrans on Teamliquid with regards to balance/compositions and even ingenuity. As a player who plays a multitude of tech styles that have worked to where I am, I am rather taken back as fellow Terran's decide to woe it out on forums and not by improving their own play.
Coming from BW I remember dealing with Protoss during the time everyone said how Protoss vs Zerg was completely broken (pre-bisu era) and that even KeSPA was looking to balance the game revolving that. I remember Jinro always being at the forefront saying the match up is balance and Protoss needs to find another style (Forge fast expand as it were to turn out, note his interview he coincidentally was quoted for that specific part) and though I never posted at that time (frankly because I never made an account, I was 13-14 or so at the time) I agreed that Protoss was not pushing the match to the limits. Bisu comes, balance fixed with no need from the outside.
I fear that our fellow website Terran's are falling into that trap, so please just help me by engaging in topics and discussions with a clear mind and stop polluting it with "my race is so weak, I can't do anything vs anyone anymore" because it not only puts a bad name on our race, we also can't prove we're the best even while fighting balance changes and diversified play.
So to engage a conversation, today I was practicing with a friend and lategame TvP I've noticed for a long time that the P always clumps its templars up (similar to how ghosts get clumped) when both armies move into an engagement so I tried out an idea and got 3 ravens lategame, upgraded HSM and launched 2 HSM's into the templars and dropped 2 PDD's to cover Vikings as they engaged the 4 colossi. 1 HSM hit first, dropping 4 templar and the 2nd one dropped the remaining 3 (with 2 strandeds lurking in the back) and with all of the AOE taken down my 3/3 mass rauder army (similar to Taeja's composition lategame) absolutely rolled the Protoss.
So, do you think that is a viable option (especially with cleaning the gas bank later in the game)
I understand where your heart is, but there's really no appeasing the masses. When I first joined this forum, I was really tempted to go crazy and yell at all the terrans and tell them to stop bitching, but after a mistep or two, I realized it's better to just let it go. All we can do is continually come up with new ideas and execute them beautifully. Like the interesting Skytoss topic, we just need to continually post new strategies and replays PROVING that TvZ is definitely not lost.
As for your idea about ravens...eh, I'm not entirely sure how much I like using ravens in lategame TvP. I feel like it's just as viable to EMP clumped templars; emp has a longer range than feedback, HSM doesn't. The gas usage is probably better spent on ghosts or BCs which continue to be useful after the initial engagement. TvP is undergoing some really weird changes, but I really expect the future of this matchup moving toward mech or a lategame mech transition, especially in HotS. The main reason for this is because mech is just a stronger composition than MMM that's relatively unaffected by the big splash dealers of colossus/templars. The only real weakness of mech in TvP is the early-game immobility and dealing with feedbacks. I think if terrans can figure out how to transition safely from the heavy MMM into more of a marine/tank/thor army, the lategame will feel a lot safer and less hopeless.
As much as I'd like your Idea of ravens vs templars, I kinda fail to see how it could work. Ghost vs Templar battles are already hard with a range similar to feedback's range, I dont really know how you can expect to get into HSM range with your ravens without getting feedbacked once the Protoss knows what you are trying to do :/
EPT
