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Hey guys, i am a Diamond terran, and my TvZ kinda... suck...
Anyway, in diamond top 25 and top 8, a lot of Z Players are going for a fast third... and i just cant deal with a lot of lings...
I try to push with 30 to 40 marines, 4 tanks and 2 medvacs, but 90% of the times its no use, the zerg just come with A LOT of lings and some banelings, and this leaves me sooo behind... so... do you guys know any timming or a solid Macro build to deal with this?
What you guys are doing to beat Z players? because i have no ideia... and this is making me feel so bad : (
Since the beggining of the patchs, i always feel that i dont understand the TvZ matchup, because Z keeps trading lings, and just winning...
So, please help me guys, gl hf.
Thanks!
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On August 22 2012 05:36 FrozenMoon wrote:
Hey guys, i am a Diamond terran, and my TvZ kinda... suck...
Anyway, in diamond top 25 and top 8, a lot of Z Players are going for a fast third... and i just cant deal with a lot of lings...
I try to push with 30 to 40 marines, 4 tanks and 2 medvacs, but 90% of the times its no use, the zerg just come with A LOT of lings and some banelings, and this leaves me sooo behind... so... do you guys know any timming or a solid Macro build to deal with this?
What you guys are doing to beat Z players? because i have no ideia... and this is making me feel so bad : (
Since the beggining of the patchs, i always feel that i dont understand the TvZ matchup, because Z keeps trading lings, and just winning...
So, please help me guys, gl hf.
Thanks!
90% of the pro terrans open 1 rax cc or cc first > reactor helions + 2 eng bays or reactor helions and banshees if you feel the zerg can all in with roach and bane/ling (in some maps is almost guaranteed).
With the helions and banshees you can get a good feel about his army numbers and composition. I suggest you get a fast 3rd (generally you get the 3rd cc after the fact + 2bays or fact + starport). With your map control you land the 3rd cc if you feel safe, or wait until 2-3 siege tanks.
If he goes for the regular ling>infestor into hive, you want to make a 150+ food timing push, deny his 4rd and maybe kill his 3rd while dropping all over the place. If you feel your micro's shit or its not safe to attack, maybe it means hes maxed, maxed before the hive units. So you either deal with it, or prepare right away for the broods or ultras, and the inevitable attack to free up supply.
The key is to have enough map control early game with banshees and helions to macro safely. Then based on that information you either pew pew or get ready for the real nastyness that is hive zerg:/
(Its obvious if youre having to many problems with mass lings, you need good micro and to keep clearing the creep)
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Hihi
Platium terran here. Im sorry if this has been answered many times before, new here and didnt find anything searching. I have a big problem vs the 4 gate warp prism in TvP. I onegate expand into 3 rax, getting stim, +1 and medivacs. I tend to autoloose against this build. When I scout 4 gates and two gas I try to get up some turrets and spread my army with 4 marines in a bunker at the front and the rest chasing the warp prism as well as pulling scvs.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
If you scout a 4 gate warp prism attack, spending money on turrets is inadvisable. Bunkers will shield your marines and let them hit ground.
The 4 gate warp prism attack I'm familiar with is the on outlined here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233968
so I'll talk about defending that.
If you scout a 1-gassing protoss who's saving chrono boosts and cutting probes, you can assume a 4gate of some variety. When he hasn't expanded, you either run an scv into his main, or burn a scan to see what he's doing. Typically, you'll see a 4gate, but sometimes there will be a robo. Sometimes the robo will be hidden, sometimes it'll be proxied, and seomtimes it won't.
You have your bunkers at your front (I typically stay on the high-ground when I suspect a balls 4gate or 4 gate robo), but make sure to make depots and the like around the corners of your base. I often make a 4th rax, slightly delaying my double gas, when I suspect play like this. He might do a small poke at the front, or just fly in with the warp prism and unload his 4 units and begin warping in. You need to pull scvs and attack with all your marines-- don't worry about the bunker at the front unless you don't see him warping/dropping units.
Don't lose too much mining time and keep on producing marines and it's winnable. Remember to put some dudes in gas when you can afford it since protoss CAN transition out of this, albeit poorly. You will need to do so as well.
If he unloads and warps in in your main without you noticing it's basically done.
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On August 22 2012 06:55 Sifter wrote:
Hihi
Platium terran here. Im sorry if this has been answered many times before, new here and didnt find anything searching. I have a big problem vs the 4 gate warp prism in TvP. I onegate expand into 3 rax, getting stim, +1 and medivacs. I tend to autoloose against this build. When I scout 4 gates and two gas I try to get up some turrets and spread my army with 4 marines in a bunker at the front and the rest chasing the warp prism as well as pulling scvs.
4 gate warp prism is one of the worse all ins to defend. You mention building turrets, thats a huge mistake, the push comes way to early for that. You want to spend all the minerals on units. Build one bunker in your main base and 2 at your nats ramp (with just 1 marine on each bunker). Worse case scenario you want to evacuate your nat expansion and wait for the medvacs to move out.
When the push hits you will have the 3 depots are your base for spoting, soon you see the warp prism coming, try and focus fire with the prism with the marines while the scvs tank the zealot warp ins.
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Thanks.
I have no real problems holding off a standard 4gate, I just make an extra bunker and pull scvs to repair. But it really sucks when Im so ready at the natural choke and I see the warp prism on the other side of my base dropping 4 zealots and starts warping in.
My thinking behind the turret(s) is to have a "safe zone" where the warp prism cant go, behind my main mineral line for example. But I can see that it doesnt make a lot of sense since the radius isnt THAT big.
I think I might just need some more practice defending it, as it takes so much multitasking, especially if the protoss has a proxy pylon outside my nat
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 22 2012 07:51 Sifter wrote:
Thanks.
I have no real problems holding off a standard 4gate, I just make an extra bunker and pull scvs to repair. But it really sucks when Im so ready at the natural choke and I see the warp prism on the other side of my base dropping 4 zealots and starts warping in.
My thinking behind the turret(s) is to have a "safe zone" where the warp prism cant go, behind my main mineral line for example. But I can see that it doesnt make a lot of sense since the radius isnt THAT big.
I think I might just need some more practice defending it, as it takes so much multitasking, especially if the protoss has a proxy pylon outside my nat
any time you'd want to do that with a turret vs 4gate warp prism, it probably makes more sense just to make a bunker there instead, so you can just walk your marines in and be like "hah bunkers op"
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Is pure bio tvz actually viable? I've heard a lot of contradictory claims on it, I've heard artosis and idra make reference that this is the mainstream style now a days, but some master terran clan mates completely refuse to accept it has any currency at all. I've seen a couple replays from top masters who do it as well: So is it a valid strategy, or only good in certain situations or maps?
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On August 22 2012 06:12 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 05:36 FrozenMoon wrote:
Hey guys, i am a Diamond terran, and my TvZ kinda... suck...
Anyway, in diamond top 25 and top 8, a lot of Z Players are going for a fast third... and i just cant deal with a lot of lings...
I try to push with 30 to 40 marines, 4 tanks and 2 medvacs, but 90% of the times its no use, the zerg just come with A LOT of lings and some banelings, and this leaves me sooo behind... so... do you guys know any timming or a solid Macro build to deal with this?
What you guys are doing to beat Z players? because i have no ideia... and this is making me feel so bad : (
Since the beggining of the patchs, i always feel that i dont understand the TvZ matchup, because Z keeps trading lings, and just winning...
So, please help me guys, gl hf.
Thanks! 90% of the pro terrans open 1 rax cc or cc first > reactor helions + 2 eng bays or reactor helions and banshees if you feel the zerg can all in with roach and bane/ling (in some maps is almost guaranteed). With the helions and banshees you can get a good feel about his army numbers and composition. I suggest you get a fast 3rd (generally you get the 3rd cc after the fact + 2bays or fact + starport). With your map control you land the 3rd cc if you feel safe, or wait until 2-3 siege tanks. If he goes for the regular ling>infestor into hive, you want to make a 150+ food timing push, deny his 4rd and maybe kill his 3rd while dropping all over the place. If you feel your micro's shit or its not safe to attack, maybe it means hes maxed, maxed before the hive units. So you either deal with it, or prepare right away for the broods or ultras, and the inevitable attack to free up supply. The key is to have enough map control early game with banshees and helions to macro safely. Then based on that information you either pew pew or get ready for the real nastyness that is hive zerg:/ (Its obvious if youre having to many problems with mass lings, you need good micro and to keep clearing the creep)
Thanks for the explanation, i think i need to keep a solid build and have better Map control... i just hate zergs... lol
Anyway, thank you very much.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 22 2012 11:20 whatevername wrote:
Is pure bio tvz actually viable? I've heard a lot of contradictory claims on it, I've heard artosis and idra make reference that this is the mainstream style now a days, but some master terran clan mates completely refuse to accept it has any currency at all. I've seen a couple replays from top masters who do it as well: So is it a valid strategy, or only good in certain situations or maps?
Watch DeMuslim. DeMuslim's style is almost trademarked as a really aggressive hellion/bio opening into a TON of bio aggression. He eventually transitions into marine/tank, but the midgame is mostly MMM with some hellions thrown in. As far as the lategame goes, bio becomes weaker and weaker as zerg gets more and more splash (baneling speed, fungals, ultralisks), indicating a need for tank/thor. But as far as the early and midgame, it's totally viable as an aggressive variant that delays the zerg's lategame.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 22 2012 06:55 Sifter wrote:
Hihi
Platium terran here. Im sorry if this has been answered many times before, new here and didnt find anything searching. I have a big problem vs the 4 gate warp prism in TvP. I onegate expand into 3 rax, getting stim, +1 and medivacs. I tend to autoloose against this build. When I scout 4 gates and two gas I try to get up some turrets and spread my army with 4 marines in a bunker at the front and the rest chasing the warp prism as well as pulling scvs.
I think the best answer to this is just to be wary if you see no expansion and no attack at 6:00. If this is the case, just rally to your ramp, send ~3 marines to the back of your base on patrol. The only possible attacks (if you didn't scout 2 full early gas) are blink stalker or warp prism. If the warp prism comes in the back, just grab your marines at the rally, pull SCVs and a-move into his warp prism, focusing it down. At the front, make sure you pull SCVs for repair; if, in the worst case scenario, you can't save it, just lift you orbital and pull everything up on the high ground.
Don't build turrets. You should only be making one at your natural and 1 at your main, but only AFTER you encounter some kind of DT drop.
It's a lot of multi-tasking, which might be your problem. But if you practice doing those things, you'll be just fine.
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I saw this asked and answered somewhere in this thread, but it's tough to search for it.
So my question is this: in TvP, when defending the 1 base immortal all-in, you basically get a couple bunkers or so + pull SCVs for repair and make mainly marines to hold off till stim/medivacs are finished? I rarely face this strategy, but my friend and I struggle against this. What have you terrans who have successfully fended it off do?
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On August 22 2012 18:12 jabberjaw wrote:
I saw this asked and answered somewhere in this thread, but it's tough to search for it.
So my question is this: in TvP, when defending the 1 base immortal all-in, you basically get a couple bunkers or so + pull SCVs for repair and make mainly marines to hold off till stim/medivacs are finished? I rarely face this strategy, but my friend and I struggle against this. What have you terrans who have successfully fended it off do?
Like you said, it's rarely used. There's some different versions, but you'll scout 2 gases with your scv scout. Most of the time (>95% for me) it won't be an immortal all-in. But once you find out that he's doing an immortal all-in(scan main, spot immortals etc) you need to add bunkers, at least 3 in total. Keep a marine in front of your ramp/scout for proxy pylons so you know when he's coming, and pre-emptively pull scvs, like you would against any early attack. The best way to pull scvs to bunkers is to move them in front, active autorepair, right click bunker and queue a hold command. Only make marines, save gas for medivacs(I'm assuming you went 1rax FE or something similar). When he runs up your ramp, target 1) sentries 2) immortals with your marines in the bunkers. Sentries stop you from repairing, and that's not good. Try not to box everything and a-move, it'll screw up scv-repair.
A lot of this is how you defend other Protoss attacks.
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If I'm being contained with siege tanks, turrets, etc in a tvt at my natural, at what point do I stop building SCVs? Do I build 52 and stop to focus on army, or oversaturate in hopes of taking a third sometime?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 23 2012 01:02 XenoJesus wrote:
If I'm being contained with siege tanks, turrets, etc in a tvt at my natural, at what point do I stop building SCVs? Do I build 52 and stop to focus on army, or oversaturate in hopes of taking a third sometime?
I personally oversaturate, especially because in like most TvTs you'll want the option to make a third. I'll often make an in-base third in my main or something then fly it out as I break the contain. That being said, if it's like a 1 base tank all-in that turned into a contain, you could cut at like 50 if you wanted to since you'll be on 2 base. I think it would be more prudent, however, to prepare for 3 base play.
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In TvT when I go bio vs mech, I often find that I am pretty helpless when it comes to cracking his defenses, especially when he has sensor towers, turrets, and vikings to deflect drops. Eventually the mech army gets far to powerful for me to take on with a bio army. Can I get some tips for dealing with this kind of play?
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edit :nvm found a similar answer
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On August 23 2012 05:30 13JackaL wrote:
In TvT when I go bio vs mech, I often find that I am pretty helpless when it comes to cracking his defenses, especially when he has sensor towers, turrets, and vikings to deflect drops. Eventually the mech army gets far to powerful for me to take on with a bio army. Can I get some tips for dealing with this kind of play?
Contain him and attack his mech army while moving out to take a 3rd. He either will unsiege everything at once or will leapfrog his tanks forward. If he unsieges everything at once just stim and move right into him. Even if he has 1 or 2 tanks sieged up, if your spread is decent you can often kill his army and deny his 3rd. If he leapfrogs and takes his 3rd slowly it is also ok, because you will take your 3rd much much sooner than him like 9 minutes and you will already have your additional production on the way as well as double ebay upgrades. When he takes his 3rd you can try to kill/damage it, while his tanks are out of range, but this just works aggainst players who are not carefull about their positioning. Your goal should be to take a fast 4th and start double tank production and tank upgrades to set up a contain in a offensive position. But keep in mind that you need scans, because you don´t have the air advantage with bio. From here you try to deny him additional bases, while taking your bases on the map and slowly getting up your tank count and upgrades.
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On August 23 2012 05:30 13JackaL wrote:
In TvT when I go bio vs mech, I often find that I am pretty helpless when it comes to cracking his defenses, especially when he has sensor towers, turrets, and vikings to deflect drops. Eventually the mech army gets far to powerful for me to take on with a bio army. Can I get some tips for dealing with this kind of play?
I suppose if you really want to stick with your chosen play style, it wouldn't help to load up a unit comparison map and do some testing with certain specific bio compositions (type and number) against specific numbers of tanks, just to become intuitively aware of more or less how many tanks you can bust with your bioball. That and formations (one ball, two balls, wide line etc., clustered or spaced tanks etc.). You'd basically get concentrated practice in this key part of your games without going through like 15 minutes of gameplay before every attempt at trying something out.
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EPT
