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On August 25 2012 21:11 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 20:49 Sianos wrote:
Hi guys, i have some questions regarding TvZ.
I see more and more players do the hellion-banshee into fast 3rd with double ups for a ~ 14 minute timing attack at the zerg 3rd. Since my opening (1 rax fe into 3 rax cs timing push at 3rd) doesn´t seem to work well after i hit master league i want to try myself into the more standard stuff (I allways hated the early hellion micro, so i never really played with reactor hellion builds to begin with). I found ForGG uses a very fast reactor hellion opening with a 16 CC then 2 gas then depot and then continue scv and marine production.
My first question is:
Is there a way to scout with an scv to check for the gas timings? Since i don´t see ForGG ever scout with this build. I want to use it in ladder, but since you have to consider cheese i want at least an early scouting scv. When would you scout with a scv using this build? If not is there a version of the reactor hellion build which allows you to sneak in a scouting scv?
Another question:
Is the normal way to go for a fast 3rd + double ups to just get banshees without cloak? Or is it also viable to do it with cloak? (I´m talking about the transition into marine,tank,medivac.) I actually don't have any experience doing this build, but I have good knowledge of it. Like you, I preferred marine openings, but it seems that as time goes on and skill increases, hellions are becoming the only way to open aggressively in TvZ. As for the scouting, you should be able to scout with your barracks SCV. I think ForGG is just imba Code S, so he doesn't need to scout for silly things like 1-base baneling busts and such, so he generally just skips this scout. Either way, with a good wall-off and extremely good micro, you COULD hold blindly. From here, you use your 2 initial hellions to spot 2-base all-ins, etc.... As for the upgrades, it doesn't really matter if you go for cloak or not. At the worst, it just delays double ups by a little bit. I generally see players like ForGG skipping cloak if they plan on staying on a low amount of banshees in favor of a faster midgame army transition. If you plan to make a TON of banshees like Mvp or MKP, you want cloak to extend their use as you'll be on hellion/banshee for a while. I would suggest looking at DeMuslim's build too ( DeMuslim Build!). He generally goes for an attack with stimmed marines and hellions at ~10:00 followed up by a ton of MMM aggression to delay the zerg lategame. It's worth looking into, and I think it would be closer to the feel of opening marines. Hope I was able to help!
I too have been using the hellion banshee into fast 3rd opener. I transition into the new mech style that was unveiled at IEM and explained by Day9 recently (http://day9.tv/d/Day9/meching-in-tvz/) and have had a ton of success with it, literally losing only once with it because I screwed myself up and killed not one but two CC's on accident... but yeah. Even during the harass/contain phase, the cloaked banshees really keep the zerg pinned, leaving you free to clear creep, kill queens, and if he's lacking in spores, a ton of drones. The cloak is wonderful for escaping the eventual mutalisks.
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On August 25 2012 21:11 SC2John wrote:I actually don't have any experience doing this build, but I have good knowledge of it. Like you, I preferred marine openings, but it seems that as time goes on and skill increases, hellions are becoming the only way to open aggressively in TvZ. As for the scouting, you should be able to scout with your barracks SCV. I think ForGG is just imba Code S, so he doesn't need to scout for silly things like 1-base baneling busts and such, so he generally just skips this scout. Either way, with a good wall-off and extremely good micro, you COULD hold blindly. From here, you use your 2 initial hellions to spot 2-base all-ins, etc.... As for the upgrades, it doesn't really matter if you go for cloak or not. At the worst, it just delays double ups by a little bit. I generally see players like ForGG skipping cloak if they plan on staying on a low amount of banshees in favor of a faster midgame army transition. If you plan to make a TON of banshees like Mvp or MKP, you want cloak to extend their use as you'll be on hellion/banshee for a while. I would suggest looking at DeMuslim's build too ( DeMuslim Build!). He generally goes for an attack with stimmed marines and hellions at ~10:00 followed up by a ton of MMM aggression to delay the zerg lategame. It's worth looking into, and I think it would be closer to the feel of opening marines. Hope I was able to help!
Thanks for your advice. I will try to experiment with some scout and different gas timings. I don´t really like the marine,hellion,medivac stuff either (just don´t like hellions in general), but i think i will experiement with hellion-banshee without cloak for a while.
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On August 24 2012 04:50 SKDN wrote:
How the fuck do you beat toss on 3 bases on cloud kingdom just feels impossible T,T
When you play TvP, you have to play with the mindset that you are never going to speed up his tier 3 units. That often means that you want to stop him from having a safe third for as long as possible. In cloud kingdom, destroy the destructible debris near his base and always try to sneak in your army to his empty space. If he is going for a relatively fast third which comes before his tier 3 units, then you should have a much better chance to shake him back and forth to defend the third/natural/main. If he is going for a third after fast colossus, you ideally would want to find a timing that he goes for storm and hit him with mass vikings.
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Can someone please elaborate for me ideal drop mentality on tvp? You're ready wih your mmm push, are about to drop in Protoss' base, an he has stalked ready. He has zealots sentries and colossi in front. What are you supposed to do now? What's the next step? Do you still attempt to drop and when?
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On August 26 2012 19:09 halpimcat wrote:
Can someone please elaborate for me ideal drop mentality on tvp? You're ready wih your mmm push, are about to drop in Protoss' base, an he has stalked ready. He has zealots sentries and colossi in front. What are you supposed to do now? What's the next step? Do you still attempt to drop and when?
you use drops in different ways
some players might use drops to pull armies out of position, others use drops to actually do damage (kill probes/pylons). it's all about your goal
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http://drop.sc/243446
Hey guys can you please tell me what I did wrong this game? I know my macro is bad right now, I'm tired...
I did have the advantage at one point though, but I had no idea what to do with it and I sorta just danced around his base and let him kill my units...
My friend said nukes force tanks to unsiege but all they fucking do is scan so what do you do against mass siege tanks?? Should I have invested in banshees?? but don't the marines kill the banshees??
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On August 26 2012 19:09 halpimcat wrote:
Can someone please elaborate for me ideal drop mentality on tvp? You're ready wih your mmm push, are about to drop in Protoss' base, an he has stalked ready. He has zealots sentries and colossi in front. What are you supposed to do now? What's the next step? Do you still attempt to drop and when?
Dropping a protoss on 2 base is verry hard. Especially with your 10 minute mmm timing, since nowadays everyone knows how to defend those drops. The only possibility to actually do damage with this timing is when your opponent is going for fast collosus. This means that his overall army will be smaller and it´s harder for him to defend drops. Your mentally at this stage should be to scare him. Try dropping on 2 different sides but pay much attention and pull your drops away as soon as there are units. It´s very important to keep those medivacs alive because it´s crucial to losse 20 supply of your army that early. Your target´s should be pylons on the edges of his base and/or some probes (especially the ones in gas). The only time a sacriface would be cost efficient is when you can manage to either kill a robo bay or a twilight council, because you delay his tech and timing by a lot of you can do it.
When the protoss is trying to take his 3rd it´s a good idea to drop 1 or 2 medivacs in the mineral lines while attacking the 3rd with your main army, because he must have most of his army at his 3rd to prevent a snipe which means that his mineral lines are sometimes undefended.
Even if you can´t manage to land a drop, it´s still damaging the protoss mentallity because ha can´t carelessly push out without beeing allin at this stage of the game.
However the purpose of dropping can be very different depending on your strategy. If you for example go for 5 rax before your 3rd cc you CAN trade armies, because you´ll have the production to replace them, but if you go for a fast 3rd base after 3 rax you can´t affort to loose your army in the medivacs, because then he can just attack you and it will be very tough to defend your 3rd.
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On August 26 2012 20:22 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 19:09 halpimcat wrote:
Can someone please elaborate for me ideal drop mentality on tvp? You're ready wih your mmm push, are about to drop in Protoss' base, an he has stalked ready. He has zealots sentries and colossi in front. What are you supposed to do now? What's the next step? Do you still attempt to drop and when? Dropping a protoss on 2 base is verry hard. Especially with your 10 minute mmm timing, since nowadays everyone knows how to defend those drops. The only possibility to actually do damage with this timing is when your opponent is going for fast collosus. This means that his overall army will be smaller and it´s harder for him to defend drops. Your mentally at this stage should be to scare him. Try dropping on 2 different sides but pay much attention and pull your drops away as soon as there are units. It´s very important to keep those medivacs alive because it´s crucial to losse 20 supply of your army that early. Your target´s should be pylons on the edges of his base and/or some probes (especially the ones in gas). The only time a sacriface would be cost efficient is when you can manage to either kill a robo bay or a twilight council, because you delay his tech and timing by a lot of you can do it. When the protoss is trying to take his 3rd it´s a good idea to drop 1 or 2 medivacs in the mineral lines while attacking the 3rd with your main army, because he must have most of his army at his 3rd to prevent a snipe which means that his mineral lines are sometimes undefended. Even if you can´t manage to land a drop, it´s still damaging the protoss mentallity because ha can´t carelessly push out without beeing allin at this stage of the game. However the purpose of dropping can be very different depending on your strategy. If you for example go for 5 rax before your 3rd cc you CAN trade armies, because you´ll have the production to replace them, but if you go for a fast 3rd base after 3 rax you can´t affort to loose your army in the medivacs, because then he can just attack you and it will be very tough to defend your 3rd.
thanks, that makes a lot of sense
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On August 26 2012 20:18 SneakMind wrote:http://drop.sc/243446Hey guys can you please tell me what I did wrong this game? I know my macro is bad right now, I'm tired... I did have the advantage at one point though, but I had no idea what to do with it and I sorta just danced around his base and let him kill my units... My friend said nukes force tanks to unsiege but all they fucking do is scan so what do you do against mass siege tanks?? Should I have invested in banshees?? but don't the marines kill the banshees??
Nukes can force tanks to unseige, but you have to be careful where you place the nuke. If you place it right on top of his tanks then yes, he can just scan and kill your ghost. It is possible however, to place the nuke a little bit in front of the seige line, so that the edge of the blast radius will still hit tanks, but your ghost is just outside of seige tank range. Note that this means you can't immediately advance your position because you don't want to walk into your own nuke, but if you are faster to reposition your tanks and army once the nukes lands (or you cancel it), you can get better position.
As for banshees, they can sometimes be good. You must have air control, but need not worry about marines if you use them properly. Banshees should be used to pick off tanks on the front line, out of range of the marines behind. If he moves his marines forward to shoot the banshee, your tanks should be able to shoot the marines (if not, get closer with your tanks). This can also be used to draw out marines into tank fire if he has neglected to put them on hold position.
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Just watched MKP game in MLG vs Revival.
Revival simply massed banelings (35+) and a moved his way and unfortunately, due to this, MKP is out of MLG.
I want to ask my fellow terrans - what the hell are you supposed to do when you face 40 banelings coming at you? I dont think even tanks would be sufficient. Banelings were accompanied by few mutas too.
EDIT: Though MKP survived the 40 banelings, the streaming zergs were what killed him. So, I know this is common, but what do you do? Even if you survive the baneling mayhem, you are sure to have lost tons of units, and the streaming zerglings will finish the rest.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 27 2012 01:01 dynwar7 wrote:
Just watched MKP game in MLG vs Revival.
Revival simply massed banelings (35+) and a moved his way and unfortunately, due to this, MKP is out of MLG.
I want to ask my fellow terrans - what the hell are you supposed to do when you face 40 banelings coming at you? I dont think even tanks would be sufficient. Banelings were accompanied by few mutas too.
EDIT: Though MKP survived the 40 banelings, the streaming zergs were what killed him. So, I know this is common, but what do you do? Even if you survive the baneling mayhem, you are sure to have lost tons of units, and the streaming zerglings will finish the rest.
To be totally honest, I think the answer to banelings is just more marines. When you do the math, it takes 2 banelings to kill a single marine, marines can usually gun down at least 1-2 before dying, making a marine worth like 3-4 banelings. In a perfect world, if you were to split perfectly, 20 marines would potentially kill 50-60 banelings.
That being said, with a sub-optimal split, you should be able to kill at least 30 banelings with 20 marines. With 40 marines and a strong spread, 40 banelings are totally negated. Certainly a few tank shots helps, but I think the key is a lot of marines. I think it's really evident when you watch players like Jjakji that will go for pushes with 40 marines/2 tanks, completely the opposite of what we've seen in the past with 20 marines/4 tanks - type push.
In addition, marines are easily and quickly replaced. You can replace around 17 in the lategame at the same time as all the zergling production...with the travel distance, you should be able to barely hold on with 2 rounds of marines. Just some thoughts, I hope it's helpful.
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I've been told these builds are solid for each matchup:
vZ: Taeja's build/style
vT: ThorZaiN's build
vP: Bomber build
Can anyone clarify what are these build exactly and where I can find a general outline for their build orders please? Thanks in advance.
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On August 27 2012 01:01 dynwar7 wrote:
Just watched MKP game in MLG vs Revival.
Revival simply massed banelings (35+) and a moved his way and unfortunately, due to this, MKP is out of MLG.
I want to ask my fellow terrans - what the hell are you supposed to do when you face 40 banelings coming at you? I dont think even tanks would be sufficient. Banelings were accompanied by few mutas too.
EDIT: Though MKP survived the 40 banelings, the streaming zergs were what killed him. So, I know this is common, but what do you do? Even if you survive the baneling mayhem, you are sure to have lost tons of units, and the streaming zerglings will finish the rest.
realistically what killed MKP wasn't just the banelings, but the fact that his setup was really not great. MKP was completely caught off guard at the +2 attack banelings. If he had the tanks on the high ground, and split + targeted the banelings, they would be dead.
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I could really use some help with TvP... Since getting into Gold (currently ranked 5) this season, my versus Protoss win rate is likely less than 1/20... I *believe* I have lost every single game versus Protoss since leaving Silver.
I have tried bio, sky, mech, nuke, bc/raven, heavy macro with retarded numbers of PF's and sensor towers, and many combinations thereof. It seems that no matter what I try, I can never favorably engage a Protoss composition at any point in the game and have enough units remaining to fight off the ridiculous warp-in of 30+ stalker reinforcement. I trade exceptionally well with Z and T, having a pretty high win-rate versus those two.
After this, I am seriously tempted to just GG whenever I get matched versus Protoss. It's pretty much a waste of time for me to do anything otherwise anyway. :\ There's no doubt that I have a trillion things I could fix, I am just frustrated and could use some pointers.
Here's a recent replay where the warp-in immediate reinforcement just makes me want to ragequit.
http://drop.sc/243573
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On August 27 2012 06:13 DarkCharisma wrote:I could really use some help with TvP... Since getting into Gold (currently ranked 5) this season, my versus Protoss win rate is likely less than 1/20... I *believe* I have lost every single game versus Protoss since leaving Silver. I have tried bio, sky, mech, nuke, bc/raven, heavy macro with retarded numbers of PF's and sensor towers, and many combinations thereof. It seems that no matter what I try, I can never favorably engage a Protoss composition at any point in the game and have enough units remaining to fight off the ridiculous warp-in of 30+ stalker reinforcement. I trade exceptionally well with Z and T, having a pretty high win-rate versus those two. After this, I am seriously tempted to just GG whenever I get matched versus Protoss. It's pretty much a waste of time for me to do anything otherwise anyway. :\ There's no doubt that I have a trillion things I could fix, I am just frustrated and could use some pointers. Here's a recent replay where the warp-in immediate reinforcement just makes me want to ragequit. http://drop.sc/243573
You were on 1 base at 13 minute mark when I quit watching. You went 2 port banshees and had 3 banshees with no cloak at the 11 minute mark. I don't really know what else to say. Pick a plan and stick with it, you kept changing your plan every 30 seconds. either straight up 2 port banshee (raven first) and make marines with your minerals (no upgrades) or do a standard build (1 rax fe into 3 rax with medivacs, take your third base 10-12 minutes)
Your problem is you make it up as you go along and you don't do that well. You try to do everything at once.
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Hi i just lost to this 5 gate all in i dont see where i went wrong.
Thankfull for help
http://drop.sc/243607
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What is the ideal SCV number in the mid game?
I just switched from Zerg and I have no idea when to stop making workers.
I'm opening 1 rax FE on all matchups, currently on Plat league.
Ty.
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Well in general you don't want a lot of scvs as Terran. Probably around 70 since you have mules. I would say mid game somewhere around 50-70.
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EPT
