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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2012 03:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Hellion banshee is becoming "the" standard TvZ build, it seems. How does one hold off a quick sling/bling bust with this? 2 banshees don't exactly kill off 30 lings, even if you were able target fire a lot of banelings. I have been going CC first, fast tank, and if Zerg has started a third, I get a macro third and 4th until it is safe to land them.
I am relying on Zergs being stupid and not taking 8 bases immediately, which has a higher probability of winning than relying on me having amazing unit control. Any thoughts for a third way?
A 2-base eco bust is timed generally around 7:30 BEFORE a banshee gets out. The general way to deal with this is 1) scouting the gas timing at the beginning and calculating 3 minutes after (i.e. gas at 3:50, bust comes at 6:50), 2) scouting out the 3rd base of zerg around 6:30-7:30; 3 base zerg can't do a 7:00 bust, and 3) poke with first hellions to check if roaches are on the way or banelings are morphing in. Holding the watchtower with initial marines helps a lot.
If you feel a bust is coming or you've scouted it, the general response is to build a 2nd and/or 3rd bunker, DON'T switch SP and rax, and begin marauder production. With good bunker placement, a good wall, and a hellion/marauder composition, you'll do quite well against both the eco bust and the roach bust.
After the bust, continue as normal to get banshees/hellions up, knowing that you're fine at this point.
As for why zergs would take a bunch of a bases early instead of doing these all-inish builds...well, I think zerg has a much better chance of winning in the late game than it does with a bust. Busts are really just opportunistic things, they aren't really good as a straight-up "strategy".
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I struggle with using ghosts, in fact I almost never use them because it looks like there are not a lot of obvious spots to use them, the only time during a match where I think of using ghosts is when facing a lot of high templar with their storms. But when I finally make them I mess up completely with hotkeys, control groups and buildings.
So I was thinking, for learning using ghosts in midgame, to always make ghosts in midgame vs protoss, just to learn how to make and control them. Seems to me that they can never be bad against protos with their EMP's and snipes, rght?
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How do you counter a Protoss who goes fast templar off of Nexus first? It seems like everything I do just puts me further behind or is hard countered. No multipronged drops because the HTs just feedback the medivacs, banshee openings are extremely risky to do blind, and bio just melts when storm pops up. I don't think I can afford ghosts before a 3rd base, and prefer to stay aggressive, but I find it hard to get an opening to do so.
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On August 28 2012 12:48 rofllocktree wrote:
I struggle with using ghosts, in fact I almost never use them because it looks like there are not a lot of obvious spots to use them, the only time during a match where I think of using ghosts is when facing a lot of high templar with their storms. But when I finally make them I mess up completely with hotkeys, control groups and buildings.
So I was thinking, for learning using ghosts in midgame, to always make ghosts in midgame vs protoss, just to learn how to make and control them. Seems to me that they can never be bad against protos with their EMP's and snipes, rght?
If you're looking to just practice with them, I don't see why you couldn't just always make them, because, as you say, EMPs are always nice.
My biggest objection would just be the gas cost. Generally, you want to get ghosts if you scout high templar (as you said), or if for whatever reason they are just going with some mass gateway army midgame. If you scout the Protoss going for early colossus, however, your gas would probably be better spent on getting vikings. Yes, EMPs would still technically be useful, but you'd probably get MORE use out of vikings for the colossi. At some point, though, assuming the Protoss doesn't all-in you, it'd be appropriate to start teching up to ghosts, as a templar switch will probably be coming (unless Toss just stays on colossus, in which case your vikings will get to a number where they can just one-shot a colossus).
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Is it "legitimate" to open cc first against zerg every game on ladder? They basically never ever ever do a pool first, why hasnt this become more standard?
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For those who play Bio vs mech in tvt, what is your advice? What I need help also, is sending small strike forces. We bio players need to do this vs mech, and when you send those small strike forces, do you hotkey them? LEts say you are sending 3 strike forces. Do you hotkey them to 1,2,and 3? Or you dont hotkey them and just click on the minimap each time you want to control them?
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United States4883 Posts
On August 28 2012 15:13 whatevername wrote:
Is it "legitimate" to open cc first against zerg every game on ladder? They basically never ever ever do a pool first, why hasnt this become more standard?
Agreed with the person above me. CC first is not universally safe unless you build it on the high ground as part of your wall. However, the benefits of going CC first and floating it down are minimal compared to 1rax FE. So just 1rax FE! It's fun!
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hey, guys, I haven't played 1v1 in about an year and a half so I'm wondering as to what are some standard openings in tvt tvp and tvz that I can safely use on the EU ladder
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On August 28 2012 21:12 jdobrev wrote:
hey, guys, I haven't played 1v1 in about an year and a half so I'm wondering as to what are some standard openings in tvt tvp and tvz that I can safely use on the EU ladder
TvT:
- some kind of 1-1-1 into expand or
- 1 rax fe into 3 rax, fac, starport or
- 1 rax fe into 1-1-1
TvP:
- 1 rax fe into 3 rax, fac, starport
- 1 rax fe bomer style (1gas) into 3 rax, fac,starport + 2 rax
TvZ:
- 1 rax fe into reactor hellion + banshee into fast 3 OC + double ups
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@dynwar7: Usually when I do multi pronged attacks I just hotkey then 1 and 2 or such. The meching player cannot/does not attack until he's comfortable and if he does when his economy's being crushed, the push is usually easily stopped because of hasty actions.
When the meching opponent takes his third, I usually try to harass the main and the third kinda simultaneously, by doing a doom drop in the main. Even if he has a turret ring just sac a viking/medivac or use raven with pdd if you have one to give access to the main.
Also, a good way of fighting mech is identifying it early enough to stall him from taking his third so he cannot mine additional gas.
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On August 28 2012 14:10 aksfjh wrote:
How do you counter a Protoss who goes fast templar off of Nexus first? It seems like everything I do just puts me further behind or is hard countered. No multipronged drops because the HTs just feedback the medivacs, banshee openings are extremely risky to do blind, and bio just melts when storm pops up. I don't think I can afford ghosts before a 3rd base, and prefer to stay aggressive, but I find it hard to get an opening to do so.
Replay please, can't really help you with your description.
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How does one stop the blink stalker off 1 base all in / 3/4 gate warp prism all inn while doing a standard 1 rax fe in to 3 rax port? I've even had bunkers in my main, having a good feeling it's coming but with the general big areas in mains they just avoid it and either start picking on the mineral lines or the production facilities? Heeelp
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On August 29 2012 02:15 siii wrote:
How does one stop the blink stalker off 1 base all in / 3/4 gate warp prism all inn while doing a standard 1 rax fe in to 3 rax port? I've even had bunkers in my main, having a good feeling it's coming but with the general big areas in mains they just avoid it and either start picking on the mineral lines or the production facilities? Heeelp
Post replays so we can see what went wrong.
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On August 28 2012 03:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Hellion banshee is becoming "the" standard TvZ build, it seems. How does one hold off a quick sling/bling bust with this?
A limited number of thors can achieve quite a lot with micro and repair and especially with some support from smaller units. If you manage to put a crowd of auto-repair SCVs around thors, they will also block melee access and repair each other, basically making lings useless. With bling, you unfortunately need to split, block (+repair) or otherwise deal with it (and not use that SCV repair crowd). It's largely based on experience, micro and fast decision-making. I once managed to surive and later win a game when my base was broken and all units killed but a single thor was still in production. I was somehow able to kill off the entire surviving attack group, hold off the reinforcements, and go and kill the Zerg. Obviously, many times I've failed. But it does get better with time.
On August 29 2012 02:15 siii wrote:
How does one stop the blink stalker off 1 base all in / 3/4 gate warp prism all inn while doing a standard 1 rax fe in to 3 rax port? I've even had bunkers in my main, having a good feeling it's coming but with the general big areas in mains they just avoid it and either start picking on the mineral lines or the production facilities? Heeelp
A poster at TL (IIRC) has had some success with sensor towers. They allowed him to move where he needed to. What he was doing still seemed risky and hard but he was able to defend. I generally lose to any form of mass early stalkers myself.
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On August 29 2012 02:31 NewbieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 03:06 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Hellion banshee is becoming "the" standard TvZ build, it seems. How does one hold off a quick sling/bling bust with this? A limited number of thors can achieve quite a lot with micro and repair and especially with some support from smaller units. If you manage to put a crowd of auto-repair SCVs around thors, they will also block melee access and repair each other, basically making lings useless. With bling, you unfortunately need to split, block (+repair) or otherwise deal with it (and not use that SCV repair crowd). It's largely based on experience, micro and fast decision-making. I once managed to surive and later win a game when my base was broken and all units killed but a single thor was still in production. I was somehow able to kill off the entire surviving attack group, hold off the reinforcements, and go and kill the Zerg. Obviously, many times I've failed. But it does get better with time.
Why do you talk about Thors to hold a ~6'30 Baneling bust? Factory after 1 rax FE dual gas begins around 4'30, so the fastest Thor you can get is 7'35.
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Blazinghand
United States25555 Posts
I agree with TheDwf. Thors out of a 1 rax FE is not a good response to an extremely aggressive baneling bust. Just like it's hard to have banshees (or even tanks) out in time, it's harder to have thors out in time. You can't even start a thor right away after a tech lab-- you're waiting for the armory to finish.
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On August 29 2012 00:38 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:12 jdobrev wrote:
hey, guys, I haven't played 1v1 in about an year and a half so I'm wondering as to what are some standard openings in tvt tvp and tvz that I can safely use on the EU ladder TvT: - some kind of 1-1-1 into expand or - 1 rax fe into 3 rax, fac, starport or - 1 rax fe into 1-1-1 TvP: - 1 rax fe into 3 rax, fac, starport - 1 rax fe bomer style (1gas) into 3 rax, fac,starport + 2 rax TvZ: - 1 rax fe into reactor hellion + banshee into fast 3 OC + double ups
thanks, mate.
planning on watching MVP's replays @ IEM. He still solid and stuff? ^^
also, I saw ravens used a lot in TvZ, so that's the new late TvZ? looks powerful (with mech. maybe works only on some maps?)
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On August 29 2012 02:52 jdobrev wrote:
thanks, mate.
planning on watching MVP's replays @ IEM. He still solid and stuff? ^^
also, I saw ravens used a lot in TvZ, so that's the new late TvZ? looks powerful (with mech. maybe works only on some maps?)
Don´t know much about that, but it seems that mech + air transition is mostly used on larger maps like metropolis, but i also have seen MVP doing it on ohana, so i would think it just depends on your execution.
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in TvZ
Why a lot of people use hellion and after banshee. ( I think it's one of the most famous mma build)
I always have the impression that the banshee is always counter by the mass queen and its a waste of tech. On his thread : prot terran strategy Q/A , Ver says that the hellion-banshee opening is the only one he thinks good.
Thank
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